AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Ggom]

Ok, rules question - if you take allies do u need to fill battleline from those allies? Eg. If I wanted to run a war hydra from CoS, do I also need CoS battleline, or can I take whatever I want as long as I stay under 25% of my total points?

Or, if I wanted to run a black dragon and sorceress?

I just want a behemoth that's not Morathi - not because I dislike her or anything, purely because I like dragons.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Ggom

[DJMoose]

39 minutes ago, Fyrm said:

Alright, I’m really annoyed by all the people doomsdaying. Seriously, every time there’s a release in interested in, it always seems like most people, or at least the loudest ones, are screaming that the faction is garbage now. I don’t care anymore. I’ll just be focused on having fun playing an interested game. Which means a snek list. 

I have been playing snakes almost exclusively since the first battletome. Despite what some others are saying I think snake armies are in a good spot right now. I've been fairly successful with Blood Sisters charging turn one with the Ironscale's ability, and in combination with the improved shooting of Blood Stalkers have been a force to be reckoned with. Will definitely take some adjustments with the new book, but snakes still have a place despite some of the whining. Also, snakes are cool models. So that's really why I play them.

[Ser_namron]

5 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

I don't necessarily disagree but there are 2 big problems here. 1 is that a lot of the last handful of battletomes to come out have been built for the absolute top of the top. Seraphon, KO, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, all top tier contenders. Why did the 'build for the middle' philosophy wait until now?

Second, our options are less varied and rely more on one or two powerful tricks than before. Blood Stalkers are pretty much the be all end all of the book.

I dont think their is a "build for the middle" philosophy. I think its a "Hurrr durrr this sounds good lets not playtest this at all and compare it to the current meta or the things everyone is calling broken. And also lets not touch that broken ****** for a year because you wouldnt want to balance a competitive game more than 1x a year" GW is inept when it comes to balance, everyone should know that by now. The community breaks their game within 2 days every time they release something.

I think this new book is going to be a fun change from the DOK of the past, but i think we also took a massive hit to being competitive. It was already tough to run a melee heavy DOK when there so much magic and shooting that can delete half your units before you make it to the opponent, now the melee got worse, the defensives got worse, and the crazy stuff out there has been untouched. The wholly within changes were coming, we all knew that, but they took it away without giving us anything in return besides some point changes. I personally dont want to buy khanite shadowstalkers, i dont want to convert 20 more sisters to stalkers because sisters have somehow done a complete 180 to being one of the best units in the army to being extremely meh. Im looking forward to some fun games, but i likely wont be taking DoK to any friendly tournaments if i have to re-kit my entire army for the new Age of Shootmar... ill stick to KO there lol.
 

[Ser_namron]

8 minutes ago, Ggom said:

Ok, rules question - if you take allies do u need to fill battleline from those allies? Eg. If I wanted to run a war hydra from CoS, do I also need CoS battleline, or can I take whatever I want as long as I stay under 25% of my total points?

Or, if I wanted to run a black dragon and sorceress?

I just want a behemoth that's not Morathi - not because I dislike her or anything, purely because I like dragons.

Battleline has to be from your army, so DOK. you have an ally point limit you can go to, but you still need to adhere to the normal battleline/ behemoth max/ rules. So as long as your under the 25% and adhering to the normal list building rules, you can bring them. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Ser_namron

[UnholyRevenant]

I'm seriously considering allying in my CoS frostheart. That -1  wound aura has proved remarkably useful in keeping my army alive and frustrating opponents, especially as wound  buffs and re rolls are hard to come by in AoS

Edited February 14, 2021 by UnholyRevenant

[Jacek]

Hi,

I played some test games on TTS with new rules that were leaked. Must say even though I lost both - it was very close and I also made some mistakes as I am still learning. Games were fun and it was not one sided from the start (that is what is most important for me)

Both games were for Total Conquest scenario.

Played vs OB with this (lost 17 to 20):

Temple: Khelt Nar (can retreat and still charge in same turn)

Morathi Khaine (210)
- spell: Mindrazor

Shadow Queen (390)

Bloodwrack Medusa (100)
- GENERAL
- Command Trait: The circling flock (summon 5x Khinerai 9" from enemy anywhere)
- artefact: Gaisas Falx (6 on hit for 1 weapon = 2 hits, selected melee weapon)
- spell: Mirror Dance

Melusai Ironscale (110)

Slaughter Queen (100)
- artefact: Iron Circlet
- prayer: Catehism of Murder (6 on hit with melee = 2 hits, can use in hero phase)

Units
10x Blood Sisters (260)
10x Blood Sisters (260)
15x Blood Stalkers (420)

Battalions:
Vyperic Guard (140)

Total: 1990

2 drop total:
1. Morathi + SQ +bloodwrack + ironscale + blood sisters + blood sisters + blood stalkers
2. Slaughter Queen

 

Played vs IDK with this (lost 20 to 28 but allowed my opponent to go back in hero phase after I killed his general so he could be immune that phase, else I think would be my win. It was for learning and fun, even with going back he survived on 1 wound with awesome saves):

Temple: Hagg Nar

Morathi Khaine (210)
- spell: Mindrazor

Shadow Queen (390)

Bloodwrack Shrine (160)
- GENERAL
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciple (fanatical faith save 5+ [only for normal wounds, not MW] wholy within 12")
- artefact: The Ulfuri (+1 dmg to 1 of weapons if made charge)
- spell: Mirror Dance

Hag Queen on Blood Cauldron (220)
- artefact: Iron Circlet
- prayer: Blessing of Khaine

Units
10x Blood Sisters (260)
5x Blood Sisters (130)
10x Blood Stalkers (280)
5x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5x khinerai Lifetakers (80)

Battalions:
Vyperic Guard (140)

Endless spells:
Bloodwrack Viper (40)
- 7+
- Wholly within 9"
- move 9" (fly)
- 1 unit 1", 3 dice, >= Wounds is slain for each dice

Total: 1990

4 drop total:
1. Morathi + SQ +bloodwrack + blood sisters + blood sisters + blood stalkers
2. Hag Queen on cauldron
3. 5x khinerai
4. 5x khinerai

 

Both lists were made in short time so for sure can be improved but it shows that DoK for snakes are fun (I was never interested much in WA / SoS builds so I can't say as I have no experience there)

Mirror Dance spell is awesome

[Feii]

38 minutes ago, Jacek said:

Hi,

I played some test games on TTS with new rules that were leaked. Must say even though I lost both - it was very close and I also made some mistakes as I am still learning. Games were fun and it was not one sided from the start (that is what is most important for me)

Both games were for Total Conquest scenario.

Played vs OB with this (lost 17 to 20):

Temple: Khelt Nar (can retreat and still charge in same turn)

Morathi Khaine (210)
- spell: Mindrazor

Shadow Queen (390)

Bloodwrack Medusa (100)
- GENERAL
- Command Trait: The circling flock (summon 5x Khinerai 9" from enemy anywhere)
- artefact: Gaisas Falx (6 on hit for 1 weapon = 2 hits, selected melee weapon)
- spell: Mirror Dance

Melusai Ironscale (110)

Slaughter Queen (100)
- artefact: Iron Circlet
- prayer: Catehism of Murder (6 on hit with melee = 2 hits, can use in hero phase)

Units
10x Blood Sisters (260)
10x Blood Sisters (260)
15x Blood Stalkers (420)

Battalions:
Vyperic Guard (140)

Total: 1990

2 drop total:
1. Morathi + SQ +bloodwrack + ironscale + blood sisters + blood sisters + blood stalkers
2. Slaughter Queen

 

Played vs IDK with this (lost 20 to 28 but allowed my opponent to go back in hero phase after I killed his general so he could be immune that phase, else I think would be my win. It was for learning and fun, even with going back he survived on 1 wound with awesome saves):

Temple: Hagg Nar

Morathi Khaine (210)
- spell: Mindrazor

Shadow Queen (390)

Bloodwrack Shrine (160)
- GENERAL
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciple (fanatical faith save 5+ [only for normal wounds, not MW] wholy within 12")
- artefact: The Ulfuri (+1 dmg to 1 of weapons if made charge)
- spell: Mirror Dance

Hag Queen on Blood Cauldron (220)
- artefact: Iron Circlet
- prayer: Blessing of Khaine

Units
10x Blood Sisters (260)
5x Blood Sisters (130)
10x Blood Stalkers (280)
5x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5x khinerai Lifetakers (80)

Battalions:
Vyperic Guard (140)

Endless spells:
Bloodwrack Viper (40)
- 7+
- Wholly within 9"
- move 9" (fly)
- 1 unit 1", 3 dice, >= Wounds is slain for each dice

Total: 1990

4 drop total:
1. Morathi + SQ +bloodwrack + blood sisters + blood sisters + blood stalkers
2. Hag Queen on cauldron
3. 5x khinerai
4. 5x khinerai

 

Both lists were made in short time so for sure can be improved but it shows that DoK for snakes are fun (I was never interested much in WA / SoS builds so I can't say as I have no experience there)

Mirror Dance spell is awesome

I think you are better off taking Scathcoven instead of Vyperic guard. 1 CP once per game is worse than being battleshock immune on 4-5 units. 

[Jacek]

23 minutes ago, Feii said:

I think you are better off taking Scathcoven instead of Vyperic guard. 1 CP once per game is worse than being battleshock immune on 4-5 units. 

Small units and I rarely failed battleshock. I think in those 2 games failed once only and lost 1 bloodsister total.

I took Vyperic Guard for drops reduction, was testing anyway

[pixieproxy]

Wait, from the prayers page and I just noticed after watching that HWG vid, priests can now attempt every prayer they know? Isn't that pretty big?

[Blitzd]

1 hour ago, pixieproxy said:

Wait, from the prayers page and I just noticed after watching that HWG vid, priests can now attempt every prayer they know? Isn't that pretty big?

You've always been able to do a warscroll prayer and a table prayer

Edited February 14, 2021 by Blitzd

[Gecktron]

37 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

Wait, from the prayers page and I just noticed after watching that HWG vid, priests can now attempt every prayer they know? Isn't that pretty big?

The warscrolls for the Hag and Slaughter Queen state that they can only attempt one of the prayers on their warscroll. So I assume that part on the prayer lore is meant to be a more general description how prayers work. Why otherwise bothering with introducing this specific limit on the warscroll? 

[Jacek]

Anyone noticed that now you can fight with 1 unit in hero phase twice for 2 CP?

The order is important:

1. Use slaughter Queen CA (she can select only unit that did not fight that phase yet)

2. Use Morathi's CA (she can use it once in hero phase)

Profit

[Fred1245]

 

11 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

As a top table tournament player I don't mind the changes. They are what they are and either deal with them nd adapt or play another faction

Having a tantrum about it isn't going to help

With 3.0 probably in Sept there might be some changes that make dok/slaanesh changes make more sense. Who knows 

With smaller table sizes like in 40k shooting armies will have to deal with that reduction, especially if double turn is removed

You want to adapt, let's adapt. DoK lists were starting to struggle without abusing new Morathi and Khellebron. Witches, Sisters of Slaughter, and Blood Sisters were on a downslide as more and more armies got units that could either shrug off their damage output, were fast enough to deny charge priority, or just shot them off the table. All 3 of those units took multiple, layered nerfs (Witch brew, -1 attack, wholly within, Witch brew, nerf to banner carriers, point increases, Witch Brew, change to crystal touch, Hagg Nar not rerolling to hit, Witch Brew, Mind Razor going to 8+ to cast, Hagg Nar bubble moving to wholly within, prayers being less reliable due to losing artefacts, spells being less reliable due to losing artefacts, and Witch Brew.) So if the goal is to adapt, the first thing to do is to find a long term storage home for those units to hang out in.

The best option is to switch to full shooting(even though that got nerfed too thanks to the blood rite table not including missile weapons anymore). The defensive bubble we can build combined with Blood Stalkers good range, base stats, and mortal wound output still leaves them as likely tournament caliber option. Our mediocre suite of melee buffs generally not being limited to specific models or units means that blood stalkers will benefit enough that they'll be able to mop up weakened units in the mid game. Witch brew not working until turn 2 won't affect them much because they're trying to avoid melee until then anyway. Shadowstalkers also received no significant changes and were never reliant on buffs the same way other units were so they're still perfectly fine. Bloodwrack shrines got better while seeing a large point drop so they're better than ever. Cauldrons are worse but they're also cheaper so they balance out. Avatars of Khaine at 130 with the +1 to prayer buffs and the changes to prayers making them easier to animate puts them in contention finally. The fist endless spell is solid if you were already building a bubble army (which you should). Doomfire warlocks got better, although with both Bloodwracks seeing larger boosts than them are unlikely to hit the table too often. Khinerai can still deepstrike onto objectives, so they're still fine. Morathi still has a ton of impossible to replicate utility (although with the Shadow Queen's nerf I'm still not sold on her being worth 600pts anymore). Morgwraeth seeing a 60pt drop mitigates witchbrew being largely useless and the fact that DoK can't take relics unless they have a battalion means her not being unique is even less of an issue than it was. Hagg Nar is still the best temple just based off of the 5++ shield.

So an adapted DoK list going forward would look something like: Hagg Nar, Hag Cauldron(Blessing of Khain), Bloodwrack Shrine General, Avatar of Khaine, 9 Shadowstakers, 9 Shadowstalkers, 20 Blood Stalkers, 10 Blood Stalkers, 10 blood Stalkers, 5 Blood Stalkers, Endless Prayer. You can fiddle around with the unit sizes for the blood stalkers, ditch the cauldron for morgwraeth, bring more shadowstalkers in general, switch out the avatar for something else, etc. 

 

[stratigo]

16 hours ago, Gecktron said:

Funny that you mention Kharadrons. The KO chat was full of people crying about them being trash, and nerfed into the ground when the book dropped last year, and look at them now. 
Just wait for a bit and play before saying its bad. 

Actually they were trash right before the book dropped and it looked like the handful of good units they did have got nerfed (and they did, neither arkanauts or rigger are near as strong as they used to be), but some people did warn about the terror that is a WLV on turn one from anywhere.

 

Legit a WLV spews out like 15 mortal wounds. Spell in a bottle was a mistake, it's too hard to balance

 

14 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

As a top table tournament player I don't mind the changes. They are what they are and either deal with them nd adapt or play another faction

Having a tantrum about it isn't going to help

With 3.0 probably in Sept there might be some changes that make dok/slaanesh changes make more sense. Who knows 

With smaller table sizes like in 40k shooting armies will have to deal with that reduction, especially if double turn is removed

 

eh? Table size never really mattered for shooting or melee in AoS. Everything just teleports or moves 30 inches in a turn these days. What top table army isn't jamming their face in turn 1? Actually what top table army isn't using teleports everywhere? IDK maybe? IDK is really the only strong army that isn't hyper focused on ruining people turn 1 and instead prefers to do it turn 3.

 

 

[UnholyRevenant]

Gotta say I'm really sick of this current meta. I regularly flick through most of the armies forums and all anyone is talking about is how to spam shooting, fish for the double and end the game turn 2. Heck the new Hedonites hotness is spam blissbarb cause muh mortal shooting yo. I got out of 40k precisely because it was a gun line shoot fest that saw huge chunks or your army nuked from turn to turn. AoS offered a more combat oriented experience, but it seems the gun line shoot fest has followed me over. Sorry if this seems like a rant but, i thoroughly hate this boring meta. The sooner it effs of the better, tone down all the battletomes and allow combat to happen again. Even that has changed into one round deletions where players say a unit sucks if it cant nuke a unit in one combat phase. 

[Jacek]

By the way, reading comments seems like many people think that win = killing all enemy units.

There are objectives to be captured for the win.

DoK have many good tools for that:

Mirror Dance spell - I think this is a must now.  Awesome, you can teleport 2 heroes almost wherever you want to keep their "wholly within" bubbles after your other units move in their movement phase.

Khailebron - maybe can't apha strike but this CA is NOT considered mvement. So impact of not moving next movement phase is low. Why? You can teleport them again if needed. If they are in combat - you dont need move in most cases (I understand that you cant make retreat move then? Doesn't matter - you can teleport them OUT of combat now with CA, you should be able to because you can teleport hero in hero phase with Mirror Dance if needed so they are wholly within 12" at the end of movement phase when you use teleport CA)

Khinerai - keeping them in reserve makes enemy to stay back with their stronger units defending their objectives and their army is more splitted. 80 points for that? awesome.

Shadowstalkers - even one alive makes enemy contribute his units to defend objectives as well meaning he will not always be able to utilize all of his buffs etc

Cauldrons - cheaper now and keeping your most important units in wholly within it's range is not that hard with mirror dance spell.

Bloodwrack Shrines - AWESOME now. 160 points for 13 wounds, 2 dispel, 1 spel, impacts on charge, nice anty-horde shooting, dmg aura. Remember that it can benefit from Ironscale CA - as it is still MELUSAI (run 2d6 with that (re-roll 1s for run, shoot and still charge if needed)

Ironscale - viable choice for 110 pts now, more of utility hero giving you more options for quick movement depending on what you want to play. In my opinion 1 is enough as you can't use CA more than once in a phase anyway

Mindrazor - can't build army around only this spell. But there are possibilities to invest more resources (see above) when it kicks in to hit hard enemy with that bonus rend and dmg. Most probably bonus dmg will trigger more often based on charge than higher bravery. If it fails - you have possibility to plan for further rounds and each further round makes your army a bit stronger (blood rites)

I had very close lost game vs OB (very, very good player + very good army) in a game when NONE of my teleports with mirror dance worked (all failed 6+ and he had no unbinds anyway).

That is only my opinion but at least I see many possible options. Now DoK requires more thinking and positioning etc. but if executed correctly they are still deadly and have many possibilities to fight for objectives even in later rounds. And this is only very short time after leaks of new book. Some time later I think people will find more viable builds than before (of course difficulty of the army is raised a bit in general I suppose so don't expect auto-wins withot thinking)

@Edit:

In short - we have many tools to pick our fights when we want and are strong. If enemy is 1 deathball - we can just have a chase contest for objectives making enemy to split his forces and lose buffs. If you want to YOLO 1st turn then it will not work in most cases.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Jacek

[Feii]

There are some big point decreases but it feels like the army is moving into this deathstar type of an army. Hagg nar + blood shield sneks are quite survivable and their crystal touch + stalker MW on 6 is insane. Also morati being able to doubleshoot 1 unit 20 sneks thats like 20 MW on average per turn on to pof their normal 3+ 3+ output. It really is an age of shootmar. Which is sad. 


Also shadowstonkers for 100 is insane. being able t oprotect the flanks by the virtue of starting on the bettlefield (opposed to 80 points khirenai) and then TP to snatch objectives is ridiculous. 

[Jacek]

For endless spells / prayers invocation my opinion:

Heart of Fury (80): Too expensive for what it does. Not all armies have 2+ dmg for attacks so for mass of 1 dmg hits it is not working at all. Too situational and even if needed in most critical time 3+ is too high risk for that price. Having 5 khinerai in reserve is better investment in my opinion. May be usable if you make build vs specific opponent to counter him or if you play torunaments where most of enemy players use armies with 2+ dmg attacks and you know it beforehand ?

Bladewind (40): I don't see any real reason to take it, we have other ways to generate MWs and it is easy to dispel anyway. Ignore cover meaning also our units and opponent can utilize it if we get the first turn. Heavily depending on amount of terrain / obstacles if we want to use it's "ignore cover" so may be worth taking if you play with a lot of terrains etc. on the table and have 40 spare points as finishing touch and like the risk of enemy moving it (12" fly) for your disadvantage 

Bloodwrack Viper (40): This one seems very nice. Can move it ~18" (set-up wholly within 9" and move 9" fly). It affects only selected unit within 1" so even if opponent gets to move it - we can plan it and keep units out of it's reach. Useful for enemy heroes with 6- wounds characteristic (hello Sigvald ) or tough / elite units with multiple wounds that are hard to kill the normal way due to high save and / or reroll save etc. 40 pts that can fairly easily kill several times of point's cost of enemy unit.

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Jacek

[Xil]

I don't think the Battletome sucks, there are just some decisions that don't make a lot of sense. And those were mostly pretty obvious and easy to fix, which makes me mad. 

[JackStreicher]

Imo Daughters are fine.
I am just really upset about the three tables of Command Traits that no one will use and that don't make any sense. Reasons:

1.) One usually plays a Sect, so you can't chose a CT. 

2.) There is no way you can get a second CT.
3.) Instead of adding a Custom Sect-Builder using those command trait tables we got nothing.
4.) This culminates in: If you don't chose a sect your army makes no sense (every DoK has a sec afaik, that's how they work). Then you can't even make your own because the only customisable part about not going with a premade sect is a command trait.... just wth. So this narratively makes no sense
5.) For me this feels like a hoax. They added tables no one would use to make the book seem as if there was actual new content in it.

I am also very upset about it because at first I did not realize that those traits will never be used. I thought: "Awesome! Now I can even customize my Melusai when she's leading her Zainthar Kai Snakes!" - Nope.

Which brings me to 6
6.) I am rather certain that the designers didn' see this as well. They thought they would add command traits so you could choose, without even knowing that this won't be the case which is a shame, because THEY are the ones who are supposed to know what's going on in a book.

 

That's why I refuse to buy the book. Give me a finished, quality product and not some patchwork-unfinished-unchecked-alpha version of a book with nice art.

Edited February 15, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Lucentia]

That's an issue with almost every book since the introduction of subfactions really, including the previous DoK tome, there are very few instances off the top of my head where foregoing taking a subfaction so you can use one of the generic command traits is a strong choice.  The exceptions being books like Hedonites where you're forced to pick a subfaction but they have their own selection of traits inside of that choice, or something like FEC where one of the generic traits is potent enough to be worth considering over the subfaction bonuses.

Ideally they need to either make generic command traits more powerful/interesting, make subfaction bonuses less powerful/interesting, or change how command traits work entirely.  But I do not think this is an issue unique to the new DoK book by any means.

[Gokken]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo Daughters are fine.
I am just really upset about the three tables of Command Traits that no one will use and that don't make any sense. Reasons:

1.) One usually plays a Sect, so you can't chose a CT. 

2.) There is no way you can get a second CT.
3.) Instead of adding a Custom Sect-Builder using those command trait tables we got nothing.
4.) This culminates in: If you don't chose a sect your army makes no sense (every DoK has a sec afaik, that's how they work). Then you can't even make your own because the only customisable part about not going with a premade sect is a command trait.... just wth. So this narratively makes no sense
5.) For me this feels like a hoax. They added tables no one would use to make the book seem as if there was actual new content in it.

I am also very upset about it because at first I did not realize that those traits will never be used. I thought: "Awesome! Now I can even customize my Melusai when she's leading her Zainthar Kai Snakes!" - Nope.

Which brings me to 6
6.) I am rather certain that the designers didn' see this as well. They thought they would add command traits so you could choose, without even knowing that this won't be the case which is a shame, because THEY are the ones who are supposed to know what's going on in a book.

 

That's why I refuse to buy the book. Give me a finished, quality product and not some patchwork-unfinished-unchecked-alpha version of a book with nice art.

I agree they should have been snake traits, so medusas coul reroll or ironscale get +1 save. Like mount traits for other books, why get +1 to save on a hero when I can give my entire army 5+ ward?! why?!

[Gokken]

Does anyone know if the mirrordance can affect the hero casting it? I would like to play Hagnar with medusa shrine as general, would be nice to use bloodsisters and be able to teleport to a location so my guys are wholly within 12? or do I need a separate medusa to cast it?

I mean I would be visible and within myself right? does my shrine question its own existence? do I feel? do I breath? am I a real boy? was my shrine just gaslighted into thinking it is within itself?  does my shrine even exist?

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Gokken

[Frowny]

I'm really liking the looks of this. Lots of options, and all the temples were really improved so well see a lot more choices, i think. Not just endless hag gnar.

Fallback+charge is very strong, especially across the board.

Witches are slightly worse bit a lot cheaper. I think a big unit will still do plenty of blending, although I think sisters of slaughter will now consistently edge them out.

Shadow stalkers are bananas good. Having played with tree revenants before that warscroll alone is mind-blowingly powerful.

Fighting twice on a 5+ is worlds more reliable and goes great with the 6inch pile in and activate. The first 6inch pile in let's you basically fight First and nearly kill your first target. Then if you get lucky, you can do it again! And if not, you at least mostly killed the first unit, so are still in a good position anyway.

Witchbrew did take a nerf but it doesn't seem insurmountable. More like a nice thing when it works rather than to be relied upon but still fine to have.

Khinari life takers as a 10x also seem interesting as a super fast high damage missile.

I think we'll see a lot more diversity.

[Lucentia]

20 minutes ago, Gokken said:

Does anyone know if the mirrordance can affect the hero casting it? I would like to play Hagnar with medusa shrine as general, would be nice to use bloodsisters and be able to teleport to a location so my guys are wholly within 12? or do I need a separate medusa to cast it?

I mean I would be visible and within myself right? does my shrine question its own existence? do I feel? do I breath? am I a real boy? was my shrine just gaslighted into thinking it is within itself?  does my shrine even exist?

Yes, the caster fulfils the requirements for the spell and is free to teleport herself, go nuts.

Though watch out that the spell requires you to have two heroes viable to be teleported (as opposed to 'up to two heroes') so I think if you only have one hero in range the spell would have no effect.