AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Richelieu]

Still have a few finishing touches, but here's that ETB Sequitor Prime conversion mostly painted.

[kenshin620]

Pretty sweet looking!

 

[aceytrixx]

5 hours ago, RantingBob said:

I need to confirm this but it looks like the Sequitor sprues don't let you build a Prime with a Great Mace.  So the 10man box has only 4 Great Maces.

Yeah the website says it only comes with 4. It's pretty frustrating. I've ordered yet another set of soul wars Sequitors and then I'm going to work out how much more I need and decide if its worth buying a multipart box for some variety of if I'll just buy more of the starter set. Guess it'll depend if I actually have enough Great Mace's which I think I will. 

[RantingBob]

I’m think I might just try and convert an extra great mace. 

[DanielFM]

6 hours ago, Black Blade said:

That's insane, what's cause this huge gulf? I thought the dracoline profiles would make up for the missing evocators and their additional wounds/speed/abilities would explain a little bit of a hike but that's way worse than I expected.

Please check the follow-up posts from back then. PJetski (I think) showed that Dracolines can match or even surpass Footvocators in damage when they are buffed by external sources.

By my calculation, even taking only charge and Empower into account for Dracolines (Footvocators can't get Empowered the turn they drop) they get really close to Footvocators (around 12 PPW vs around 10 PPW).

Kugane calculation didn't take a lot of factors into account.

Evocators on Dracoline are potentially good but be ready for investing in them (Lord Arcanum on Dracoline for buffs).

[The World Tree]

1 hour ago, aceytrixx said:

 Yeah the website says it only comes with 4. It's pretty frustrating. I've ordered yet another set of soul wars Sequitors and then I'm going to work out how much more I need and decide if its worth buying a multipart box for some variety of if I'll just buy more of the starter set. Guess it'll depend if I actually have enough Great Mace's which I think I will. 

Honestly it should only have ever been 2/5 or 4/10 in the first place. It just seems silly having half the unit with the special weapon.

[Black Blade]

15 hours ago, Requizen said:

I understand that for sure. But look at, for instance, Libs vs Judis before this new Battletome. There were reasons to take both, and reasons not to take both. 

I'm unhappy that they designed Sequitors to just be Liberators, but better. Not a different option - it's not like, for instance, Darkling Covens, where you can have cheaper Battleline with Shields vs Executioners who are far more expensive but have much better attacks. That feels like a choice. This just... doesn't. It's not a "defensive vs offensive" or even a "more bodies vs better bodies" question, the only thing differentiating Sequitors vs Libs is having to take an Arcanum. Which... you'll probably want to anyway, since they're good, and Wizards are almost necessary.

Same for Evocators vs Paladins. If, for example, Evocators were worse in melee but could cast other spells, you'd have to make a choice - take the melee punch or take the trickiness of Wizards. But instead, they're just Paladins but better.

I like the new models and will continue playing, but the design just seems lazy to me. 

Ballistas are a good design - compare to Judicators. Ballistas need support, are not Battleline, and can be quite swingy in both directions. But, because they are very efficient in half range and can punch through easier with Rend -2, it's a bit more of a decision if you want a shooting unit and only have so many points to work with. Judis fill out the Battleline, but Ballistas with Scions will generally do more damage, but Judicators can hold objectives better, but Ballistas have longer range for something like Knife to the Heart... you make a choice. To some people, that choice seems obvious, to others, the opposite. Sequitors and Evocators are just replacements and it bugs me.

 

/rant

I've said similar things before. The thing is Stormcast isnt a tier one army, that belongs to legions of Nagash in my opinion but they are a solid tier two, maybe not even top of the tier there and that's with these "better libs and better paladins." Which is fine by me for an army but I think the two unit types left behind need buffs and not the others being debuffed. Retributors are too expensive should have 1 more attack per man and or one better save given they are a slow 4" move and pricey. Not sure what to do with the libs but im to suggestions.

[Kugane]

13 hours ago, Black Blade said:

That's insane, what's cause this huge gulf? I thought the dracoline profiles would make up for the missing evocators and their additional wounds/speed/abilities would explain a little bit of a hike but that's way worse than I expected.

The dracolines are clearly designed to be on the field instead of scion-ed to empower themselves and then go in for an early charge, plus less models are easier to get into range I'd assume. Fully buffed they do similar stuff to normal evocators for the points, but it requires quite a bit of planning and luck to get the monstrous claws high enough to become significant.

Personally I think if you just play a big unit of 10+ evocators on foot alongside a vexillor, you can just empower them and then shoot them over to the scion squad with the Vexillor's ability and still be able to do most of the tricks the dracolines can. If your gavriel is already in place you should be able to get a decent chance on a succesful charge. Dracolines can reroll charges however... Which gives them that reliability bonus. I personally think that gryph chargers are probably doing the same job better though, generally they can move much further with ride the winds aetheric and when buffed can do some serious damage too.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Kugane

[ledha]

8 hours ago, Black Blade said:

That's insane, what's cause this huge gulf? I thought the dracoline profiles would make up for the missing evocators and their additional wounds/speed/abilities would explain a little bit of a hike but that's way worse than I expected.

people forget that dracoline have huge buffs coming from a evocator on dracoline around them. That + the reroll charge, D3 dmg in charge make them way easier to use on the battlefield than footslogging evocators

[DanielFM]

56 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Personally I think if you just play a big unit of 10+ evocators on foot alongside a vexillor, you can just empower them and then shoot them over to the scion squad -you mean, to the area where Scions units have deployed?-with the Vexillor's command ability -I guess it slipped, but it's not a command ability- and still be able to do most of the tricks the dracolines can. If your gavriel is already in place you should be able to get a decent chance on a succesful charge. Dracolines can reroll charges however... Which gives them that reliability bonus. I personally think that gryph chargers are probably doing the same job better though, generally they can move much further with ride the winds aetheric -but that means 2nd turn charge, the can't charge after that-and when buffed can do some serious damage too. 

Just clarifying some points.

If you want the Vexillor to be of any use besides that single teleport, he will have to drop from Scions to give his reroll charges bubble to relevant units. At this point, we can consider the Vexillor a 120 points "tax" (I know how people hate its misuse these days) to the cost of the Evocators. Even if it forces you to use Hallowed Knights, just by using its command ability a EvoDracs unit will have the same chance to charge a unit at 24" with the worst possible run roll.  I leave Gavriel out of the equation as it would help both units equally.

In this scenario, the Evocators on foot combo costs 320 points (with some added bonuses as the reroll charge bubble affects several units) and the EvoDracs cost 300 + taking HK. For some people the second could be considered a heavier tax, but I see them as pretty interchangeable, with their pros and cons.

Vanguard Palladors can do a similar thing for cheaper, but they need a Lord Aquilor to do it right (Azyrite Hurricane - alpha strike), setting them at 300 points. They have access to fewer damage buffs and natively deal a lot less damage per point. They are an option to be considered, though. I would like to try a list which alpha-strikes both with the aforementioned  Evodracs and Vanguard-Palladors combos. Scary!

[aceytrixx]

3 hours ago, The World Tree said:

Honestly it should only have ever been 2/5 or 4/10 in the first place. It just seems silly having half the unit with the special weapon.

I agree. 5 man squads with 3 special weapons doesn't seem right. 

 I assumed after soul wars the full warscroll would limit to 2/5 and the prime doesn't get an additional but here we are. Its especially odd since that's the way the box is built. 

[PJetski]

Stormcast aren't top tier? Having access to an immortal Stardrake is enough to make Stormcast a top tier army. Dispel scrolls and 3+ save wizards are icing on the cake.

[Kugane]

3 hours ago, DanielFM said:

Just clarifying some points.

If you want the Vexillor to be of any use besides that single teleport, he will have to drop from Scions to give his reroll charges bubble to relevant units. At this point, we can consider the Vexillor a 120 points "tax" (I know how people hate its misuse these days) to the cost of the Evocators. Even if it forces you to use Hallowed Knights, just by using its command ability a EvoDracs unit will have the same chance to charge a unit at 24" with the worst possible run roll.  I leave Gavriel out of the equation as it would help both units equally.

In this scenario, the Evocators on foot combo costs 320 points (with some added bonuses as the reroll charge bubble affects several units) and the EvoDracs cost 300 + taking HK. For some people the second could be considered a heavier tax, but I see them as pretty interchangeable, with their pros and cons.

Vanguard Palladors can do a similar thing for cheaper, but they need a Lord Aquilor to do it right (Azyrite Hurricane - alpha strike), setting them at 300 points. They have access to fewer damage buffs and natively deal a lot less damage per point. They are an option to be considered, though. I would like to try a list which alpha-strikes both with the aforementioned  Evodracs and Vanguard-Palladors combos. Scary! 

For the vexillor I indeed meant to write ability instead of command ability. I personally have had little success pulling off a turn 1 charge with units such as dracoths and the likes, so not sure if Dracolines can make it in the first turn. Crossing the entire table + charge is quite the feat to pull off in 1 turn on a 4x6. How do you personally handle that situation?

I like the Hallowed knights idea though, its pretty much a certain 4" run and charge with the worst possible rolls, quite useful.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Kugane

[ledha]

28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Stormcast aren't top tier? Having access to an immortal Stardrake is enough to make Stormcast a top tier army. Dispel scrolls and 3+ save wizards are icing on the cake.

the stardrake is a pillow-fisted ultra resilient anvil that still die as soon as mortal wounds or rend-2 are in the fray and most of the competitive list have ways to deal with a stardrake, or tie this 560 pts monster with a 300 pts unit during the whole game. I don't think stardrake list made llot of good results this year. Against armies like ironjaw it's cool. But bring it against idoneths, khorne or tzeentch and they will nuke it in 1 turn

Edited August 3, 2018 by ledha

[DanielFM]

1 hour ago, Kugane said:

For the vexillor I indeed meant to write ability instead of command ability. I personally have had little success pulling off a turn 1 charge with units such as dracoths and the likes, so not sure if Dracolines can make it in the first turn. Crossing the entire table + charge is quite the feat to pull off in 1 turn on a 4x6. How do you personally handle that situation?

I like the Hallowed knights idea though, its pretty much a certain 4" run and charge with the worst possible rolls, quite useful.

I was planning on that:

12 move+ run (1-6)+1+ reroll charge (2-12)+1. That gives a minimum of 17 (very unlikely) and a maximum of 32. Getting 24 looks relatively easy, even if not guaranteed. In case you want more reliability, spending 2 CPs instead of one gives you run 6 (minimum 22 and maximum 37) or run 1d6+2 (min 19  max 34 ) from Tauralon to help other units keep the pace.

It's true that usually first line units (exactly at 24) are what people nowadays call bubble wrap, expendable units you don't want to charge with the Dracolines. But they can also be shooters that needs all the range they can get, or a strong hammer unit which intends to cross the table fast.

Some numbers:

If I didn't mess up, the chance of a EvoDracs making a 24 charge with the HK CA is 0.8. I calculated it as the sum of the chances of rolling a 1 to run then rolling 9+ to charge (with reroll), plus rolling a 2 to run then rolling 8+ to charge ... up to rolling a 6 to run then rolling 4+ to charge. It doesn't sound like a gamble at all!

If you also use the run 6 CA, the probability would be 0.993. Crazy! That's pretty much guaranteed.

If you use the Lord Arcanum on Tauralon CA instead, it would be a probability of 0.951. Pretty close to the previous one, but buffing other units too.

EvoDracs + Hallowed Knights alpha strike is sounding better and better by the moment

Edited August 3, 2018 by DanielFM

[AdamR]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

the stardrake is a pillow-fisted ultra resilient anvil 

Calling it an anvil gave me an idea... for a 20 evocator hammer!

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Celestant On Stardrake (560)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lighntning Blast

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
20 x Evocators (800)
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning

Endless Spells
Dais Arcanum (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
 

Deploy Stardrake, Castellant, Incantor and Judicators on the board. Probably go second if possible.

Turn 1 - Buff Stardrake with lantern, summon dais, move up hiding hero's behind the big dragon. Scions Evocators in front of drake. Possibly charge if you're feeling lucky.

Turn 2 - Mystic shield on Evocators. Possibly lantern too depending on what they are up against. Kill things. Scions Liberators onto objectives.

Obvious problems - repositioning will be tricky, and it's a lot of eggs in a small amount of baskets.

Now tell me how rubbish it is.

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

the stardrake is a pillow-fisted ultra resilient anvil that still die as soon as mortal wounds or rend-2 are in the fray and most of the competitive list have ways to deal with a stardrake, or tie this 560 pts monster with a 300 pts unit during the whole game. I don't think stardrake list made llot of good results this year. Against armies like ironjaw it's cool. But bring it against idoneths, khorne or tzeentch and they will nuke it in 1 turn

Not enough mortal wounds in the game to get past Ignax's Scales 

[Freejack02]

Just now, PJetski said:

Not enough mortal wounds in the game to get past Ignax's Scales 

Beat me to it - (especially if you have any sort of healing), an Ignax Stardrake is actually unkillable. 

[GeneralZero]

12 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Not enough mortal wounds in the game to get past Ignax's Scales 

What is it? (and where to find this)

[relic456]

2 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

What is it? (and where to find this)

Page 82 of Malign Sorcery, Artefacts of Power: Relics of Aqshy.  4+ to ignore mortal wounds allocated to the bearer.

[PJetski]

18 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Beat me to it - (especially if you have any sort of healing), an Ignax Stardrake is actually unkillable. 

Yup. Makes me think they're going to nerf Ignax to 5+ ignore.

The only thing that can maybe kill a Stardrake is a Rend-3 artifact carnosaur with +20 attacks.

[Richelieu]

22 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Not enough mortal wounds in the game to get past Ignax's Scales 

And even if there were, you just spent your entire games worth of mortals trying to kill a unit whose purpose is to draw fire away from the rest of your army.  Thanks!

[DanielFM]

15 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Yup. Makes me think they're going to nerf Ignax to 5+ ignore.

The only thing that can maybe kill a Stardrake is a Rend-3 artifact carnosaur with +20 attacks.

They must nerf it. It feels like cheating. 

[Freejack02]

39 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Yup. Makes me think they're going to nerf Ignax to 5+ ignore.

The only thing that can maybe kill a Stardrake is a Rend-3 artifact carnosaur with +20 attacks.

Or a buffed Verminlord Corruptor with the Sword of Judgement; can still eat through that 4+ ignore with some good rolls... those things scare me. 

[Richelieu]

So serious question: why are the Stormcast wizards so dang expensive? Why make a release focused on magic and then have none of your magic users worth a hoot? 

LAoGC and Incantor are both solid for their points, but not great.  And everything else is just bad.  I mean, 180 points for LA on foot is just perplexing, especially in relation to Reikenor at the same price.  He has maybe the worst command ability in the entire game and he's only barely better than a sequitor prime in melee.  Sure he has the suicide vest, but that's situational at best.  

This is not to say I'm complaining about the sacrosanct release as a whole.  There's lots to like and SC are stronger than anytime in the past two years, but...I just wish the wizards were worth their salt.