AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Fulkes]

12 minutes ago, adreal said:

Well on the plus side of mass nighthaunt, all you need is white spray, the oxide technical paint and some baking material, so paint wise it will be less intense then moonclan

I'm that annoying sort of painter who can't be happy doing just that. I don't think I've ever painted a minature (outside of my very first attempts in 3rd ed 40k) that used less than 15 pots of paint (between washes and base, mid and highlight colors I tended to use at least that many on most projects). I mean I'm working on skeletons and even using GW's easy method of painting the bones  I'm still putting more work into the whole thing that I probably need to. Heck, years ago I swore off painting 40k Orks because I spent hours sponge weathering after spending hours to do a basic paint job.

Basically, I tend to get carried away and treat every model like it's a character model.

[adreal]

Well if you want to do that for two horde armies thats upto you, but I would say look to legions of nagash for a more elite monster mash army

[Fulkes]

1 minute ago, adreal said:

Well if you want to do that for two horde armies thats upto you, but I would say look to legions of nagash for a more elite monster mash army

My other army is a LoN army, only I'm building it for both a more elite Monster Mash as well as building a Deathrattle heavy army with both intended to be run under the Legion of Blood (I like the bravery synergies we can bring and how we can pile on mortal wounds by dropping bravery scores).

[MrRoff]

MAYDAY MAYDAY ALL SPOOKS HELP!

My friend just today after a battle he lost bought a Lord of Change/ Kairos Fateweaver to his army...

How does we nighthaunt players take that thing down as fast as possible! Swarm it with grims and try to cut it down?
Spells willl mostly be usless because his Mastery of Magic passive + his faith dice

Any suggestions? I only own, grims, hexwraiths, rasps, Olynder, KoSos, Executioner, Coven throne, Guardian of souls, and a unit of spirithosts i almost never use.

 

[knightish]

1 hour ago, MrRoff said:

MAYDAY MAYDAY ALL SPOOKS HELP!

My friend just today after a battle he lost bought a Lord of Change/ Kairos Fateweaver to his army...

How does we nighthaunt players take that thing down as fast as possible! Swarm it with grims and try to cut it down?
Spells willl mostly be usless because his Mastery of Magic passive + his faith dice

Any suggestions? I only own, grims, hexwraiths, rasps, Olynder, KoSos, Executioner, Coven throne, Guardian of souls, and a unit of spirithosts i almost never use.

 

Hey Mate

Of your current models I would recommend Lady O.
Use her various non magic ability to put D6 + D3 + D6 mortal wounds on it. 
Then Charge it with Spirit hosts for the 6+ mortal wounds. 

That said you need to get to it. 
Perhaps start them both in the ground? - this is a hard call and depends on your board / opponents list etc

I would suggest throwing 30 Grimgast at it  with -1 to wound rolls buff on them, and fishing for a double charge

[Nevar]

Applying 30 Grimghasts to anything is always a good way to solve it.

[knightish]

So what do people think they will do if Grimgast Reapers get tweaked in the Jan FAQ?
The units points changing doesn't phase my in itself, it is probably a fair change.

But it will mean my current lists will not be usable any longer.

Do you think other units may need a tweak to keep the faction overall in a healthy place or do you think we can absorb that change without to much hassle? 
I believe the most commonly suggested / theorised change at this point is their 30 man discount being removed, so they would become 380 points for 30 instead of 360, it may even go up a little more. 

I think the community feeling is they are too good and outshine other picks, and are problematic in LON (though that should be address with LON) 
That said I can't see an easy alternate choice even with the price hike, with a complete list rebuild required to keep most list healthy in tournaments etc

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by knightish

[Binkbinkplx]

They would go to 420 for 30. Idk tho. Seems like it isn’t gonna fix much with LoN, 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Binkbinkplx

[knightish]

8 minutes ago, Binkbinkplx said:

They would go to 420 for 30. Idk tho. Seems like it isn’t gonna fix much with LoN, 

You are better at math than I lol. 
So yeah a 60point jump, that is hard to pill.
Especially for people running 3 units.

[Neffelo]

26 minutes ago, knightish said:

You are better at math than I lol. 
So yeah a 60point jump, that is hard to pill.
Especially for people running 3 units.

I am hoping the nerfs are more aimed at LoN, and the Grims don't get hit as collateral damage.  The problem is the gravesites, not the Grims themselves, IMO. 

[adreal]

45 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

I am hoping the nerfs are more aimed at LoN, and the Grims don't get hit as collateral damage.  The problem is the gravesites, not the Grims themselves, IMO. 

But how would one change gravesites without making them useless?

[Neffelo]

Just now, adreal said:

But how would one change gravesites without making them useless?

I would limit the number, as powerful as it is I think you really only need a single gravesite. 

[CaptainSoup]

58 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

I am hoping the nerfs are more aimed at LoN, and the Grims don't get hit as collateral damage.  The problem is the gravesites, not the Grims themselves, IMO. 

 

11 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

I would limit the number, as powerful as it is I think you really only need a single gravesite. 

Why not instead of focusing just in the Grims, why not lower of the costs of Nighthaunt across the board? A major reason why Grims are so good is because the rest of NH pale in comparison points wise. This might be a perfect opportunity to fix a lot of issues with NH in one go just by adjusting points everywhere and leave the grims as is or a slight points increase.

As for the gravesites, having only one gravesite makes them incredibility less useful. A single gravesite would have a very limited range, make the GHoN command ability near worthless, and the cost for denial by your opponent makes its dead simple. I would level with you and if gravesites are really ruining your games then bring them down to 2-3 gravesites or make them special terrain that can be destroyed by terrain-destroying army abilities.

[Neffelo]

4 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:

 

Why not instead of focusing just in the Grims, why not lower of the costs of Nighthaunt across the board? A major reason why Grims are so good is because the rest of NH pale in comparison points wise. This might be a perfect opportunity to fix a lot of issues with NH in one go just by adjusting points everywhere and leave the grims as is or a slight points increase.

As for the gravesites, having only one gravesite makes them incredibility less useful. A single gravesite would have a very limited range, make the GHoN command ability near worthless, and the cost for denial by your opponent makes its dead simple. I would level with you and if gravesites are really ruining your games then bring them down to 2-3 gravesites or make them special terrain that can be destroyed by terrain-destroying army abilities.

The thing is, I don't think most of the Nighthaunt units are really that overcosted. If anything, I think most of the units are fairly well balanced in the tome. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part I think most units are pretty appropriately-costed. 

It's really not about gravesites ruining my  games, LON are just objectively too powerful right now. The two main reasons are Nagash and Gravesites. These both need to be nerfed in someway, and going down to 1 gravesite is probably a bit much.  Perhaps going down to 2 would be fair enough, as powerful as it is currently. 

[angrycontra]

I personally think that the best way to nerf graveyards is to change them to work only for one unit per graveyard per turn, so no stacking multiple graveyard effects on single unit. With that said, I do think that Grimghasts need to go up, even if it does hurt nighthaunt, they're just that good unit. 

[Garxia]

Problem here is that Grimghast are going to get a price hyke because of their use on LoN lists, not in Nighthaunt.

It's like if GW nerf Liberators because they are OP on Sylvaneth lists.

They deserve to go up in points, but maybe losing the horde discount off is enough. Unluckily I fear that they are going to apply them the Skyfires treatment, and the collateral damage would be great on Nighthaunt armies (who aren't at 70% win like LoN or DoK), while LoN will just substitute them with 300 skeletons and be fine.

I just use one unit on my army, but points are so tight that just upping them 1 poing would make my list weaker and illegal, and I don't foresee that many Nighthaunt units that deserve a discount to compensate.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Garxia

[Tropical Ghost General]

Wowzer, a fair bit of hate for our lord and saviour going on (praise be Nagash 👻💀🎉). It's worth remembering that Death were in a terrible spot before LoN. Their new book is really strong, but so are all the new battletomes (except ours imo 😢). 

Gravesites is the LoN unique perk. To nerf how they work is the same as asking to nerf the 10+ charge thing we have because it's too strong (and it is gross and impossible to defend as being a well balanced army mechanic). Gravesites are needed because the base stats of 90% of summonable Death units are not that good, they need the extra healing to compensate for the weaker warscrolls. Look at skelebobs, hit them with any rend and the unit melts, take out 26 of 40 (which is easily doable for us) and the unit autoruns from battleshock if the big man isn't on the table. 

Also the summoning from gravesites is far from broken. It is so easy to counter if they are running an aggro general or they will have to run a super passive general just so that they can guarantee summoning back, which is wasting a general imo. Of all the summoning armies, LoN has one of the easiest summoning mechanics to counter, how do you counter Khorne summons or Lizards when their Slann can be super bubble wrapped and teleport?

Personally I think summoning in general is a bit broken but some factions without it are just garbage (sorry lizards). Imo if a points cap was put on summoning based on army size, maybe 25%-40%, so in a standard 2k game you can only summon 500pts-800pts. You can't summon half units etc... So a 2k LoN has 800pts for summoning, 2 x 30 grims is 720pts. Leaving only 80pts for summoning, so 30 grims couldn't come back a 3rd time (which has happened to me 😩). 

With regards to point changes most of our units are over priced (such as hexwraiths) and some are underpriced (such as torments). Grims will 100% lose their horde bonus, which will hurt us more than LoN. I'm going to give GW my thoughts for sure but the way GW address point changes to fix the problems with the game is the issue unfortunately. 

The main issue with bedsheets vs. LoN is that all of our units work better in LoN due to fact that the LoN book actually has buffs/debuffs/good magic/synergies that benefit units that aren't very good, making them pretty decent. So when a unit is already pretty decent, all the synergies make that unit even better, taking them to a really gross level of decent. Grims in LoN fill a role that was missing from the army, a fast flying unit that hits hard with long range melee, so it's no surprise that they are currently being used by everyone. Any points increase won't change them being used imo either. 

It's a real shame that GW released a sub faction for Death, that works better in the main grand alliance book (which is basically LoN) than it does on it's own. It's just further proof that the bedsheet battletome is not particularly strong. As the inevitable power creep happens from the rest of the factions getting new battletomes, by ghosts not having a slightly OP book straight out of the gate (like most battletomes are), it means that over time we'll see less and less attendance at tournaments and less and less players using them in general play as well, really similar to how the overall meta attendance of Khorne players dropped off the longer that AoS 1.0 went on, even though they were in the core set. I'd love to believe that I'm just being super pessimistic but it's not exactly difficult to see the general direction that we are heading as a faction, especially when you look at how GW generally respond to imbalance in their games. 

I will keep playing ghosts until the bitter end, when 2nd edition first started I went back to playing pure ghosts without allies, but as I've played more and more games I've had to concede my purest beliefs and am now running allies in my own lists. About 80%+ of current bedsheet generals run allies, which is another sign that the battletome has some real issues if the only way to way to run the army is by taking units outside of the main faction that in turn gain no allegiance abilities, can take no spells or artefacts. How many of the other top tier armies run allies as heavily as bedsheets do? 

It's also a shame that there is no Death battleforce boxset this year either, but with all the new core set stuff I can see why. With Moonclan release happening really soon and Darkoath not far behind, there will be some really interesting changes to the meta, but with more amazing choices for new (and older) players when picking factions, the need to buy the core set doesn't exist. When I started AoS last year I started with Death, because I played them in WHFB back in 4th and 5th edition and still loved the army. I had taken a very long break from the hobby in general and when getting back into it the factions on offer in the core set just didn't appeal to me at all, so I brought everything I needed separately, why spend £95 on a core set when all you need is the £35 book? And currently more and more bedsheet generals are turning to playing a bedsheet heavy LoN army or are selling their armies on eBay (or other similar sites), it's really sad to see. 

My local meta it turns out is rather competitive (with most getting 4-1 at Blood and Glory) and when asking advice it's usually just run them in LoN 😂. When asking advice from the staff at my local GW store I'm given the advice of just run them in LoN 😂. When I ask my other gaming friends I'm also given the advice tp run them in LoN 😂. I'm not taking any of their advice but it is saddening to see such a new faction (us bedsheets) be viewed in this manor by so many aspects of the community, from shop staff, to casual gamers to more competitive gamers. 

As well as the point changes I'm also sending a list of other changes that ghosts need in order to stay afloat in the current game. I'll post it on here when it's done. Apologies for the morbid nature of the post, but I really do love the spooks and while we don't have the best book we do have the best looking models. 

[adreal]

A ghost being morbid? Oh my stars

[ianob]

LoN are literally nothing to do with Nighthaunt. It's off topic.

 

To be "tier 1", Nighthaunt needed:

-Better and/or cheaper characters

-At least one monster character that could take advantage of artefacts

-Better battalions

-A mechanic that wasn't as spiky (on an 7+ fight immediately instead of in the fight phase, would have been way better than 10+ fight twice)

 

But all of that said, Nighthaunt are not at all bad. This reminds me of the Stormcast thread that's been going for a while in the Order forum; a lot of complaints, not a lot of practice or problem solving. Nighthaunt are perfectly capable of winning plenty of games, Nighthaunt are perfectly capable of placing at events. Not every list can be Tier 1, but it doesnt mean other armies need to be nerfed. At this point, some key characters coming down a few points could easily put Nighthaunt into a really great space. They're *always* going to be a gamblers army to some extent, but that's the way they've been written.

Practice guys. Play games. Try lists, solve your problems, take on the meta. Don't be sad on a forum. The army is good.

 

[Kirjava13]

12 hours ago, Nevar said:

Applying 30 Grimghasts to anything is always a good way to solve it.

Tell that to the Cauldron of Blood that took two wounds on the charge from mine... 😒 

[MrRoff]

What if they make so Grims can only be used in Nighthaunt armies and not LoN, just like alot of other Nighthaunts.

[Binkbinkplx]

57 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

What if they make so Grims can only be used in Nighthaunt armies and not LoN, just like alot of other Nighthaunts.

This was my idea, make Grims lose their discount bonus, so 420 for 30, then make all Nighthaunt an Ally in LoN. This prevents LoN from running 30 of them ever. *For Standard 2k play*

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Binkbinkplx
For people that play over 2k...weirdos

[adreal]

7 hours ago, ianob said:

LoN are literally nothing to do with Nighthaunt. It's off topic.

 

To be "tier 1", Nighthaunt needed:

-Better and/or cheaper characters

-At least one monster character that could take advantage of artefacts

-Better battalions

-A mechanic that wasn't as spiky (on an 7+ fight immediately instead of in the fight phase, would have been way better than 10+ fight twice)

 

But all of that said, Nighthaunt are not at all bad. This reminds me of the Stormcast thread that's been going for a while in the Order forum; a lot of complaints, not a lot of practice or problem solving. Nighthaunt are perfectly capable of winning plenty of games, Nighthaunt are perfectly capable of placing at events. Not every list can be Tier 1, but it doesnt mean other armies need to be nerfed. At this point, some key characters coming down a few points could easily put Nighthaunt into a really great space. They're *always* going to be a gamblers army to some extent, but that's the way they've been written.

Practice guys. Play games. Try lists, solve your problems, take on the meta. Don't be sad on a forum. The army is good.

 

I would say the book is upper mid tier, but I have only started playing them recently, still a whole lot of fun to play though, so I can't complain to loudly

[Vasshpit]

I still believe a well done terrain piece(s) could really do us some good. 

Im just not totally sure what those stats, buffs, debuffs, etc should be. Id love to hear from more experienced KoS out there on this. 

Also I had a cool wishlist thought, change our Vault of Souls spell to a summoning instead of damaging spell. 

This would help out a bit.... Might actually see it on a table too!!😄

[Neck-Romantic]

Terrain would be easy;  reroll failed armor saves, +d3 models restored per turn, things like that.

What we need is a true bodyguard function unit like Morghasts or the equivalent; where wounds/mortals can be relegated off of our characters and soak some of this damage coming in so that our attrition mechanic (such as it is) can earn its keep

This is where I think the Dreadblades could have shined, same stats as they are now, in units of 2-4 (perhaps with a cost reduction)

Not super killy; but with 5 wounds a piece and a small unit size they could soak wounds off of our characters and benefit from both our heal and ressurection mechanics. 

It would give people a tactical choice too, as RotSH or a Coach or Oly could be bringing back 5 wound Harrows... is it worth it to try to snipe the character when that many wounds can auto res?

Edited November 17, 2018 by Neck-Romantic