AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Unless you're leaving something out unintentionally its crazy that ever got arbitrated as a rules conflict because there's are only permissions in both rules AND regardless of that the language for the CRB does not seem to be inviolate so the specific should overrule the general. 

Not sure about that but I think it's an offtopic. If anyone is interested:

Spoiler

Quote

Main Core rules: A friendly unit in a garrison can leave the garrison at the end of your movement phase. If it does so, set it up so that all models in the unit are within 6" of the terrain feature and more than 3" from all enemy units. A unit cannot join and leave a garrison in the same turn.

Your units can't move after leaving a garrison because it happens at the  end of the movement phase. That's by design, like 99% of the set-ups (teleports, etc..) that don't allow you to move later in the turn (coff coff... looking at you Warp Reality). But there is more:

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Kharadron Flying Transport rule (Warscrolls): Units cannot join or leave this model’s garrison if it has made a move or flown high in the same phase (they can join or leave before it does so).

In other words, Kharadron Overlords can join or leave before our ships moves. We don't need to wait until the end of the turn because our ships usualy move like any normal unit (in the movement phase), and because leaving a Garrison is not a move, we can still make a normal move or run. Maybe it's a bit edgy, because clearly there is some room for interpretation: that rule is form 2.0 and it's inside parenthesis.

So, as a KO player, we had 3 options:

1. The parenthesis is treated like an (old) clarification and has no meaning anymore. So, we can't leave our ships until the end of the turn, and of course, we can't move our arkanauts after that.
2. The parenthesis is a modification of a rule and it surpasses the main Core Rules. We can leave our ships before they move. So, we don't leave at the end of the movement phase and we can still move/run after that (because we are still in the movement phase).
3. Ignore everything and play like 2.0 because [reasons].

Point 1) is clearly a big nerf
Point 2) is a big buff
We are going to ignore point 3) because it was just a bandaid.

But no worries, we only waited for a year to know the answer:

Quote

Q: Can units garrisoning a Kharadron Overlords Skyvessel leave the garrison in the movement phase if that Skyvessel has not yet moved in that phase? If yes, can that garrisoning unit and that Skyvessel then each be picked to make a normal move or run in that phase as normal?
A: Yes to both.

Hurra, a big buff! There are a few questions that are still not answered, but they are not as critical as this one. At least, we had a lot to talk and it was fun to know how it was played at tournaments. We even asked english teachers and philologists to know what they think about that parenthesis.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Beliman
grammar

[Duke of Mousillon]

4 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

To call that an assumption rather than a judgement would be a disservice

No bad manner was intended. I have just classified those parts I criticised as an assumption because there was no rigorous proof behind it as far as I can tell and elaborated. My apologies if it conveyed ill faith. A judgment can be made on assumptions. One does not exclude the other. And even a good judgement can be made on assumptions because we cannot prove everything in every situation. 

But as our stuntie said. We know how the rule will be played. It will be in FAQ one day. Maybe even before age of sigmar 4.0. But we know how it should be played for the time being even if the wording is off. I just enjoy rules and rigorous proofs.

[Duke of Mousillon]

The latest ogor mawtribes article made it sound as if the ability to fight in two ranks will stay exclusive to Gallet. 

"Gluttons now get a Range of 2 on their clubs and bluntblades, meaning big mobs can wade in and pulverise foes even outside the claustrophobic confines of Gallet" 

The underlined part is a hyperlink in the article to the old article about galletian veteran rules. 

[Ganigumo]

38 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

The latest ogor mawtribes article made it sound as if the ability to fight in two ranks will stay exclusive to Gallet. 

"Gluttons now get a Range of 2 on their clubs and bluntblades, meaning big mobs can wade in and pulverise foes even outside the claustrophobic confines of Gallet" 

The underlined part is a hyperlink in the article to the old article about galletian veteran rules. 

Tzaangor had a good run.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Tzaangor had a good run.

Oh well, the only thing that changes for me is that ill insist on playing this current battlepack going forward unless a friend needs practice games.

Not a huge deal anyway, the big deal is that we arent hard incentivized to run 20 so that they didn't lose out on attacks from getting breathed on. The big problem was running 20 with 1 inch range.

My huge gripe with it was i felt I was losing out by not running horrors(which I hate running at the level of 10 pinks) in 2E. Looks like Warriors at least are going to be good enough that I wont feel I have to run pinks.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Sinfullyvannila

[Duke of Mousillon]

I am afraid my 9 man unit of Screamers will be all of a sudden way more pillowfisted then intended. 

At least I enjoy the Ogor teasers in the article. They all look grand and I have more Ogor painted up then Tzeentch actually.

[Sinfullyvannila]

32 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I am afraid my 9 man unit of Screamers will be all of a sudden way more pillowfisted then intended. 

At least I enjoy the Ogor teasers in the article. They all look grand and I have more Ogor painted up then Tzeentch actually.

Yeah ill have to build my other 6 screamers quick and use them next time.

I also have any Ogors army but I dont intend to run it anytime soon just because the collection isn't nearly complete and I don't want to run armies that will make me want to buy more models.

[Duke of Mousillon]

I am not familiar with flying based from GW. Can you make a "safe" line with 9 Screamers? Safe line as in the one you can do with 32mm where you basically have 2 ranks of 5 with a little less then an inch gaps between the models in each rank and entertwine the two ranks so all 10 are in melee range of the engagement. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

5 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I am not familiar with flying based from GW. Can you make a "safe" line with 9 Screamers? Safe line as in the one you can do with 32mm where you basically have 2 ranks of 5 with a little less then an inch gaps between the models in each rank and entertwine the two ranks so all 10 are in melee range of the engagement. 

They're pretty close to 32 mil.

[Hannibal]

Let´s talk about BURNING SIGIL OF TZEENTCH:

1) Did you notice that you can turn your own models into spawns with this spell?

2) In a recent batrep on youtube one posted in the comment section that you can get just ONE Spawn per movement phase out of that endless spell due to the fact that they write something like "before the first model is removed..." and there is ony one FIRST model to be removed. What do you think about this?

[Duke of Mousillon]

2 hours ago, Hannibal said:

What do you think about this?

1. Yes

2. Its the truth. My opinion on it? It'd be stupid if it could make more then one spawn. Do not think that'd be good for the game.

[Dreadmund]

If it could make unlimited spawns I would start every game with MSU Kairic Acolytes and a burning sigil and just swarm the board with spawns. Thankfully that's not how it works.

[EntMan]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but can I confirm that if I use a magister to cast bolt of change that the resultant chaos spawn is added to my army? And doesn't remain a part of the enemy unit? I'm slightly confused because it says "is transformed into a Spawn instead of being slain" so the model isn't replaced by a chaos spawn but becomes one? It also doesn't state that the spawn "is added to your army" which I think other similar abilities etc do 

[Duke of Mousillon]

@EntMan it will become part of your army. Inside of the allegiance abilities of tzeentch there is its own rule on how to create tzeenrch chaos spawns. Just look at the allegiance abilities again if you need more info. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Bayul]

Nighthaunt player here with a question:

I just finished a game against DoT army, which wiped the floor with me. If I recall correctly it looked like this:

    
Hosts Duplicitous
Kairos
Lord of Change
2x Exalted Flamers
2x 10 Tzaangors
2x 10 Pink Horrors
Burning Sigil of Tzeentch

Battleplan was Power in Numbers.

The whole army was placed in the center of the deployment zone as a bubble. I was told beforehand that Tzaangors will use Ornate Totems with 4 dice each in the hero phase*, because there were four wizards nearby. So I stayed out of 18" range in the first round, but tried to flank the army via Vanishing Phantasms / deepstrike. That worked out, but afterwards 2x 20 nearby Bladegheist Revenants were deleted by mortal wounds. When my Grimghast Reapers arrived in the third turn without general (who was easily killed by Kairos) the two big chickens just picked apart my remaining models. Just my Chainrasp blob stayed intact in my deployment zone. 

I don't know how to engage this army next time with all my melee units. Kairos and the Lord of Change are out of reach and the Tzaangors in the flanks get revived and dish out mortal wounds to everybody. I can't retreat either, which shuts down charges for Wave of Terror.

*edit: He did it to every enemy unit within 18" though.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Bayul

[Dreadmund]

Shouldn't we have our own sub-forum now that we're an AoS3 book?

[Dreadmund]

**Accidental double post**

Edited November 6, 2022 by Dreadmund
**Accidental double post**

[Domize]

19 hours ago, Bayul said:

Nighthaunt player here with a question:

I just finished a game against DoT army, which wiped the floor with me. If I recall correctly it looked like this:

    
Hosts Duplicitous
Kairos
Lord of Change
2x Exalted Flamers
2x 10 Tzaangors
2x 10 Pink Horrors
Burning Sigil of Tzeentch

Battleplan was Power in Numbers.

The whole army was placed in the center of the deployment zone as a bubble. I was told beforehand that Tzaangors will use Ornate Totems with 4 dice each in the hero phase*, because there were four wizards nearby. So I stayed out of 18" range in the first round, but tried to flank the army via Vanishing Phantasms / deepstrike. That worked out, but afterwards 2x 20 nearby Bladegheist Revenants were deleted by mortal wounds. When my Grimghast Reapers arrived in the third turn without general (who was easily killed by Kairos) the two big chickens just picked apart my remaining models. Just my Chainrasp blob stayed intact in my deployment zone. 

I don't know how to engage this army next time with all my melee units. Kairos and the Lord of Change are out of reach and the Tzaangors in the flanks get revived and dish out mortal wounds to everybody. I can't retreat either, which shuts down charges for Wave of Terror.

*edit: He did it to every enemy unit within 18" though.

To me it just seems they were playing incorrectly. Should've been 2 dice per Tzaangor unit (1 for Kairos, 1 for LoC), and they can only shoot 1 of your units each... So a maximum of 4 MWs from that, but on average probably 2. Not sure how anyone could read the ability and think otherwise, and with such a glaring error, I'd worry a lot of other abilities were played wrong too lol.

As for engaging - the Tzaangors hit hard, but are very squishy against any rend or MWs. The horrors are definitely the worst tar pit - I usually find deep striking tactics to work well, since they can only cover so much area with horrors, and once you're in melee with their scary units (Kairos/Flamers) they melt reasonably quickly. 

Tzeentch is also very reliant on being within 18" in their Hero phase to deal damage. If possible, I'd force them to have to move within 18" on their turn - wasting as many hero phases of theirs as possible, and letting you get the charge on your turn.

[Jabbuk]

So, with the Slaves to Darkness tome out, I have a question regarding the Mutalith Vortex Beast, which I find very interesting for Tzeentch and it's fairly cheap (185). My Tzaangors unit is often times not doing much for me and I was thinking of switching it up for the beast. 

I'm attaching a picture of the warscroll that mentions that if a TZEENTCH WIZARD is next to it, you can roll 2 dice instead of one and choose the effect.

My question is the following. Kairic Acolytes are wizards when they have 9+ models but they don't have the WIZARD keyword on their warscroll. Would they be considered Tzeentch wizards when they're next to the Mutalith?

Also attaching the Wizard mention on Kairic warscroll.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Jabbuk

[MitGas]

Yes, they are a Tzeentch wizard in that case unless it gets FAQ‘d. 👍

[Jabbuk]

1 hour ago, MitGas said:

Yes, they are a Tzeentch wizard in that case unless it gets FAQ‘d. 👍

Amazing, could you clarify the nuance? I'm not quite sure when to consider only keywords vs qualifiers. 

 

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Amazing, could you clarify the nuance? I'm not quite sure when to consider only keywords vs qualifiers. 

 

I don't think there is a nuance at all here - the unit has the keyword Tzeentch and counts as a Wizard if above 9 models (thus gaining the Wizard keyword/status as every spellcaster is a Wizard by default), much like if it was a hero who happens to be a Wizard. 

GW would need to clarify that this isn't possible as IMO both common sense and the wording of the rules suggest it. they would've needed to write something like "....a Tzeentch hero who is a Wizard nearby 2 dice blah blah"

[Jabbuk]

How do you guys feel about the new Mutalith warscroll? Do you feel he's a good addition to a Tzeentch army?

He's fairly cheap for what he brings (185pts), he's 14w on a 4+ Monster that moves 10in, his melee profile is kinda meh, but I'm thinking of using him in the front, as a screen, to kind of delay the opponent as much as possible, along with Kairic Acolytes for the wizard bonus. He's basically a Mortal Wound constant harasser and his base is fairly big. Plus he can spawn Chaos Spawns on 6s.

[Duke of Mousillon]

 

On 11/5/2022 at 8:26 PM, Bayul said:

Tzaangors in the flanks get revived

I beg your pardon? How do you revive tzaangors? I would like to know that piece of tech because I do not see it in the list you presented to us Disciples.

 

18 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

How do you guys feel about the new Mutalith warscroll? Do you feel he's a good addition to a Tzeentch army?

Not sold on it. He is less wounds then a unit of Tzaangors who also throw the ocasional mortal wound out there but has substantially less punch in melee and fill a generic battleline requirement. And he is even a tiny bit more expensive. 

[Jabbuk]

6 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

 

I beg your pardon? How do you revive tzaangors? I would like to know that piece of tech because I do not see it in the list you presented to us Disciples.

 

Not sold on it. He is less wounds then a unit of Tzaangors who also throw the ocasional mortal wound out there but has substantially less punch in melee and fill a generic battleline requirement. And he is even a tiny bit more expensive. 

Yeah I get what you mean. The issue for me is that a single unit of Tzaangors might throw 2-3 mortals if you're lucky and in your castle while the beast has a 50% chance of throwing D6 mortal everytime. And you can debuff movement and stuff.  

I dunno, maybe I play too cagey with my Tzaangors because they are so fragile (5+ save) do you guys front them agressively? I always try to put them behind screens for counter charge but they end up not doing much (because of no rend if you didn't land Arcane suggestion)

Edited November 8, 2022 by Jabbuk