Thoughts on 'who will get nerfed?'

[Olincay]

My wallet, my wallet will get nerfed. 

[ledha]

Since the arrival of Deepkin with ton of army-wide or large area cover bonus easily accessible, i don't even see staunch defenders disapearing. Stormcast is far from top tier right now (except vanguard wing, and it's still a shadow of what it was), and without staunch defenders, would be in a very bad place

I can see Nurgle, Tzeentch, Fyreslayer and Daughter of Khaine having some points increase here and here

[smucreo]

I could see dire wolves going to 80 and skeletons going up to 100. That being said, they did state they designed LoN with the new edition in mind, so maybe we won't see as many point changes as other factions. Which in part is good and in part can be bad, since I still want Blood Knights to go down in price haha

[Clan's Cynic]

18 hours ago, ledha said:

Even dwarven bad faith can't say vulkite berserkers are fine

GW's line of thought for AoS 2.0 seems to be "spam more troops" be it via summoning for free or massing your units (ironically one of the reasons WHFB became so impossible to get into for newbies). Keeping Vulkite Berserkers right where they are now fits into that concept perfectly from a £££ perspective.

Add to that Fyreslayers don't have quite the same vocal notoriety as other units (Fyreslayers are still somewhat rarely seen despite being powerful compared to other stuff) and I think they'll probably sit where they are now.

[MrZakalwe]

I'm not sure if nerfed is the right word but the core of my current army is compendium so I'm a little worried about it vanishing altogether. 

 

Edit: on the subject of actual nerfs I'm pretty sure Frost Phoenixs with riders need to increase in cost and decease without. 

[Twitch of Izalith]

Surprised how many still think Tzeentch needs nerfing. They are a strong army for sure but evryone knows how to deal with them now and its not like they clean up GT's. I think Nurgle and Fyreslayers are stronger armies and easier to play.

People moan about Change Host but its not exactly an auto-pilot list to use. Fighting Tzeentch SHOULD feel like they are cheating!

I think Vulkites need a points increase but its tricky because while 330 is way too cheap for 30, 120 is not too cheap for 10.

Witch Elves and Death Hags are another problem (and I say this as a DoK player) individually the units appear to be really cheap but the overall cost of what you get for 2000 points is quite well balanced at the moment. If they increase WE and DH they will need to decrease Morathi, Bloodstalkers, etc or the army will fall off a cliff in terms of its ability to compete in the top tier.

Not even 1% on the fence about Annointed on Frostheart though - that is stupid cheap - even if they update it that you actually have to pay for the annointed which I think you were always meant to do anyway.

 

[Jamopower]

1 hour ago, smucreo said:

I could see dire wolves going to 80 and skeletons going up to 100. That being said, they did state they designed LoN with the new edition in mind, so maybe we won't see as many point changes as other factions. Which in part is good and in part can be bad, since I still want Blood Knights to go down in price haha

The points are straight from the last GHB even when the rules were updated. Probably they didn't bother to revise them as they knew that the new edition is coming and the points were in a ballpark anyways. 

[syph0n]

14 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Witch Elves and Death Hags are another problem (and I say this as a DoK player) individually the units appear to be really cheap but the overall cost of what you get for 2000 points is quite well balanced at the moment. If they increase WE and DH they will need to decrease Morathi, Bloodstalkers, etc or the army will fall off a cliff in terms of its ability to compete in the top tier.

 

This comes down to game balance vs battletome balance doesn't it? 

100 points for 10 WEs. 100 points for 10 Spears/Swords/Shards. Does that make sense - are they equivalent value? Then you take the buffs - turn buffs, prayers etc. But - do you drop cost of the others, or raise the cost of the WEs? Do you reduce other parts of the statline? 

I don't envy balancing.

[rokapoke]

47 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Surprised how many still think Tzeentch needs nerfing. They are a strong army for sure but evryone knows how to deal with them now and its not like they clean up GT's. I think Nurgle and Fyreslayers are stronger armies and easier to play.

People moan about Change Host but its not exactly an auto-pilot list to use. Fighting Tzeentch SHOULD feel like they are cheating!

In my opinion, the problem is that GW attempts to balance armies at the top end. So at the high-profile events, Tzeentch (or similar strong armies) don’t dominate, as the top-level players can take most lists and find ways to beat whatever comes their way. 

At the lower levels, armies like Tzeentch will dominate. I don’t have the collection or the skill to build my Seraphon army to compete with that. Thankfully nobody at my local shop runs anything like that, but if anybody did it would lend itself to a LOT of one-sided games. 

[garrzira]

My (just started like in the last two weeks) Kharadron Overlords are being nerfed just on reduction to shooting effectiveness, and dependence of mages. I am hoping the points drops will make up for it, and make non clown car lists more viable.

[Lord_Skrolk]

22 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Plague Monks.

Their potential damage output seems way beyond their "status", and CP could use some internal rebalancing more in favour of Censer Bearers.

Hmm... I think the fact that the only viable build for Clan Pestilens is a swarm of Plague Monks is a feature, not a bug. 

 

On the one hand, I agree. I've actually specifically avoided building my last box of Plague Monks until the new edition comes out because if Plague Censer Bearers become worth it, I'll convert those Monks into PCBs

 

But on the other hand, that's basically the entire point of Clan Pestilens. I think any unit cost changes that discourages players from having armies of mostly Monks will just feel really weird...

[ledha]

1 hour ago, garrzira said:

My (just started like in the last two weeks) Kharadron Overlords are being nerfed just on reduction to shooting effectiveness, and dependence of mages. I am hoping the points drops will make up for it, and make non clown car lists more viable.

Except everyone is affected by that (making your character harder to snipe too), and Kharadron extremely high quality shooting mean this -1 to hit won't stop them to delete anything they want (especially since they have acess to lot of to hit/reroll bonuses).

And the end of mystic shield as we know it mean they will utterlly wreck big monsters who had a 2+ save before. And they have very good anti-magic, inside allegiance or allies (runelord lol)

Don't be afraid for you sky-dwarves

[Naflem]

On 6/3/2018 at 12:56 AM, fjaoief said:

2. summoning units.

Instead of Reinforcement points, some summoning units probably will have 'point penalty', while keep the new summoning will, in the end, have larger army due to free summoning. Widely it will be a buff.

 

I'm just thinking about this; does this indicate that grand allegiance chaos is going to be toast as far as effectiveness.   Assuming things are like the blood tithe and Corruption points that we've already seen in prior battle-tombs are going to be along the lines that summoning mechanics are worked out, that would mean that your not going to get them if your not 'in' allegiance... so if everything Nurgle is going to be higher points because of the fact that your going to be able to throw free things on over the course of the game (as with Slannesh, Khorne, etc), then a mixed chaos army with Nurgle, Slannesh, and Khorne, or whatever, will be pretty bad, because you'll presumably be paying the "your going to end up with more models anyway" summon penalty in points for the units, but since you won't have the allegiance abilities, you won't actually be able to summon anyone. .

 

To tie this in to the thread topic, seems like grand allegiance armies who use units from "summoning" armies may be in for a nerf.  

[Jamopower]

There's also the problem that if the summoning is costed for medium or heavy use, regards of possibility of generating variable amount of summoning points. As an example, if Tzeentch ganerates summoning points by casting magic, do you price it for 3, 6 or 9 spells per turn. 

[Asamu]

2 hours ago, Naflem said:

I'm just thinking about this; does this indicate that grand allegiance chaos is going to be toast as far as effectiveness.   Assuming things are like the blood tithe and Corruption points that we've already seen in prior battle-tombs are going to be along the lines that summoning mechanics are worked out, that would mean that your not going to get them if your not 'in' allegiance... so if everything Nurgle is going to be higher points because of the fact that your going to be able to throw free things on over the course of the game (as with Slannesh, Khorne, etc), then a mixed chaos army with Nurgle, Slannesh, and Khorne, or whatever, will be pretty bad, because you'll presumably be paying the "your going to end up with more models anyway" summon penalty in points for the units, but since you won't have the allegiance abilities, you won't actually be able to summon anyone. .

 

To tie this in to the thread topic, seems like grand allegiance armies who use units from "summoning" armies may be in for a nerf.  

I don't think this is true in the case of Khorne. Their summoning has a clear opportunity cost, because it uses blood tithe points, so unless summoning is too strong, such that you never want to use the other options on the table, there shouldn't be much difference with how things are now.

Nurgle and Tzeentch don't have that opportunity cost, so you're probably right; though it's mostly the wizards that are likely to see an increase with Tzeentch.

I'd expect blight kings to see a points increase regardless, as they're a bit of a steal at 160 for 5, and could easily go up 20-40 points.

Same for blue/brimstone horrors probably being a bit too cheap; both could go up by 10 points or so. The volume of shooting you can get in a tzeentch army by spamming a huge number of these units is just a bit too high right now. They might opt to nerf the changehost instead, or not touch them at all, but the changehost is may see less use anyway if the rule for who goes first changes.

[DantePQ]

Changehost don't even need nerfs, new edition will nerf them big time - I suppose that roll off will decide who goes first, 30'' unbinding with new rules for arcane terrain will be amazing against them with 18'' range of their spells, DoT summon will be useless against armies with little magic and some kind of unbinding bonuses (like Khorne), Vortex with complete rules overhaul and with ability to dispel it midgame won't be a problem. 

[Jamopower]

I have a feeling that horrors split for free, but the cost of pink horrors will include blue and brimstone horrors. At least partially. 

[stratigo]

10 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

GW's line of thought for AoS 2.0 seems to be "spam more troops" be it via summoning for free or massing your units (ironically one of the reasons WHFB became so impossible to get into for newbies). Keeping Vulkite Berserkers right where they are now fits into that concept perfectly from a £££ perspective.

Add to that Fyreslayers don't have quite the same vocal notoriety as other units (Fyreslayers are still somewhat rarely seen despite being powerful compared to other stuff) and I think they'll probably sit where they are now.

Fyreslayers are getting nerfed indirectly via the summoning buffs and magic buffs which they don’t get to play with much. 

 

KO are suffering the same fate plus eating the shooting nerfs harder than any other army in the game. Magic and abilities will be the way to character snipe in the new edition and the armies that already do that well, nurgle tzeentch and LoN, will still character snipe with extreme ease, but KO will have a much harder time of it

 

disposessed are also getting some of that indirect nerfing, but they’re less... uh... played

[stratigo]

7 hours ago, ledha said:

Except everyone is affected by that (making your character harder to snipe too), and Kharadron extremely high quality shooting mean this -1 to hit won't stop them to delete anything they want (especially since they have acess to lot of to hit/reroll bonuses).

And the end of mystic shield as we know it mean they will utterlly wreck big monsters who had a 2+ save before. And they have very good anti-magic, inside allegiance or allies (runelord lol)

Don't be afraid for you sky-dwarves

KO relies on shooting to kill things, shooting is strictly worse. Most other armies, and every army with a battle tome, did not rely on shooting remotely to the degree that ko do, and most of them simply shift their sniping away from shooting to magic or activated abilities, having little effect on sniping. Nurgle are going to poop rain your support chars to death

 

KO anti magic is a joke and people need to stop insisting it’s totes okay. Navigators are drastically over coated and an extremely poor unit, barak nar is a bad skyport, and they nerfed the artifact that would give the KO any anti magic teeth. Against any serious magic army, KO is will not be able to dispell much of anything, even if they go full anti magic, and going full anti magic will just ensure you lose to other armies you’d otherwise beat

[heywoah_twitch]

Honestly thought they would change thundertusk to be easier to balance and hoped for un-nerf stone skeleton, but the faction focus doubled down on both staying as-is. It was disappointing, as I'd gladly trade frost wreathed ice for stonehorns being good again (or bcr at all).

[SirPug]

18 hours ago, Olincay said:

My wallet, my wallet will get nerfed. 

Nerfed to oblivion might i add?

[Jamopower]

Many (most?)  wizards are strictly worse in the new edition as the mystic shield was the best spell for many of them and even for those that have a good alternative, it and the bolt gave nice flexibility. For my Keeper of secrets, tthe ability to unbind feels like the best magical ability in the new edition and my Collegiate Beasts Wizard feels pretty expensive for +1 to wound on single unit, that can be dispelled easier than before. 

Malign sorcery is of course a separate thing, but I don't think it'll be the standard way of gaming as it requires all sorts of stuff and especially a good focus on magic for both players to be reasonable. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

On 6/6/2018 at 6:25 AM, Clan's Cynic said:

GW's line of thought for AoS 2.0 seems to be "spam more troops" be it via summoning for free or massing your units (ironically one of the reasons WHFB became so impossible to get into for newbies). Keeping Vulkite Berserkers right where they are now fits into that concept perfectly from a £££ perspective.

Add to that Fyreslayers don't have quite the same vocal notoriety as other units (Fyreslayers are still somewhat rarely seen despite being powerful compared to other stuff) and I think they'll probably sit where they are now.

Yeah.... because you need 120 dwarves at $60 for 10 models. Almost $800 for just the infantry for competitive lists. 

[ledha]

16 hours ago, stratigo said:

KO relies on shooting to kill things, shooting is strictly worse. Most other armies, and every army with a battle tome, did not rely on shooting remotely to the degree that ko do, and most of them simply shift their sniping away from shooting to magic or activated abilities, having little effect on sniping. Nurgle are going to poop rain your support chars to death

 

KO anti magic is a joke and people need to stop insisting it’s totes okay. Navigators are drastically over coated and an extremely poor unit, barak nar is a bad skyport, and they nerfed the artifact that would give the KO any anti magic teeth. Against any serious magic army, KO is will not be able to dispell much of anything, even if they go full anti magic, and going full anti magic will just ensure you lose to other armies you’d otherwise beat

Shooting is worse for killing low wound characters than Kharadron never had and won't had any issue to kill (except a stormcast with mirrorshield behind protectors, i give you that). You'll just have to use 1/2 more skyhook shots. The big baddies that can be a problem for kharadron (LOC, GUO, Alarielle, Nagash, etc) will be way easier to kill with the end of the mystic shield. Sure, not shooting outside of the combat is hard, but let's be honest, most of the kharadron units are pretty much dead as soon as something competent reach them in melee anyway.

And the rule change affect everyone. Skyfire will have trouble to snipe you out, and you'll be happy to prevent 30 savage orruk in a kuniin ruuk to kill your whole army just because you charged them with a gunhauler or 3 skywarden.

And yeah, sorry, but kharadron anti magic, as lame as you think it is, is better than 90% of the armies out there, except Khorne with lot of blood tithe generation, Tzeentch, Wanderers (if they spam spellweaver) or Nagash.

The "nerfed" artifact give one more dispell now, meaning a navigator from barak nar make two dispell at +1 (the same than a lord of change) and THREE one time per game (if you take another one from the realm of Chamon, you can have two navigators doing 4 dispells per turn and 6 one turn per game... and i didn't count the other characters ! ). At range 30". In a army that can reliably obliterate big baddies caster, leaving only the small fries (if they survive with the -1 to hit) that's pretty good.

Look the anti magic of other armies, you'll understand. Ton of armies don't have a dispeller character, or a anti-magic item. Being able to have two dispell with +1 is far from a joke.

[sal4m4nd3r]

Plaguetouched should go DOWN in points to 80.  You need 8 units for the battalion so a nice 10 points per unit for a -1 to hit would be a perfect, nice round number. 12.5 points per unit as it is now is to messy. Decimals scare me.