Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[Jamopower]

Sounds like something from the Magic supplement?

 

The problem with the double turn are the ranged attacks, but if they are more limited due to being able to tie them in to the combat, then it might be that the problem will sort it self out. Looking at the SCGT, the shooting units had quite a small showing in the top tables with just a unit here and there.

What comes to 40k, my eperience is it that the new edition is even more an army building game than the previous versions, where often the game is decided before any dice rolls have been made just by the list building. I can see that some people greatly prefer this, but at least for me, that kind of gaming doesn't give anything.

[azmarus]

5 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

The problem with the double turn are the ranged attacks

lolw8 ? ) range atk ?? ) 2-3(4-6 in doubleturn) HtH phase from DoK or Slaanech demon its normal ?)

[Aeryenn]

12 hours ago, LLV said:

 

-command points to use command abilities and buy artifacts help with double turns and summon units

 

 

This one bothers me most. If every turn I will have to pau for my TLA command ability to reroll 1 save I will have no points for stuff that I wanted as artifacts. It will highly nerf all the supporting general type units. I was angry with connecting artifacts to batallions and now they swap it for connecting artifacts and command points. Why would heroes command abilities now cost any currency? Did anybody complain that those units were OP? Dont recall any. 

[RuneBrush]

2 hours ago, BURF1 said:

There's no f***ing way they do summoning correctly. Get ready folks, for at least a year after AoS2 comes out, if you don't have an army that can summon it's gonna be time to try some other games for a bit.

I think we need to wait until the next edition comes out before making that statement.  The summoning game has already changed for armies like Legions of Nagash and that battletome was being written at the same time as the new edition has been so I can't imagine this army getting changed.

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I heard that summoned units aren't going to cost command points or reinforcement points, but rather something called 'Spell Points'. These are obtained by casting spells successfully. 

Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard this from a guy who went to Warhammer Fest and was apparently told/found out this. 

It'll be interesting if this is the case but it does sound like it could become complicated during the game and the focus of both AoS and 40k has been to keep the game flowing as quickly and smoothly as possible.  I'm sure we'll find out on the Warhammer Community site in the not too distant future.

[Greyshadow]

20 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

Where's this Brian Blessed Sigmar??

He's the voice in the video where Sigmar presses the button to open another Stormcast chamber. ?

[blueshirtman]

5 hours ago, lolwut said:

The ITC missions have secondaries that you get to pick, so you can adjust your strategy for what your opponent brings. And ultimately not all armies are going to be viable in every single game mode if played truly mono-faction.

Well BRC aren't viable as a soup base either, and we don't play with ITC rules, most people here don't like the way american meta works. Not that I wouldn't want to pick or at least have secondaries of some sort.

 

5 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Great example.  I think the thing people fail to account for is that you can plan for that chaos.  Whether I go first or second, making the calculation of reward vs risk of getting double turned is one of my favorite parts of the game.

I don't know if it is just us, but one of the orgenisers at our store did a check of how often people who get double turns win comparing to when they do not get double turns and it was way over 100%. Doesn't help me as 0x2 is still 0, but for other people this means that their armies who have a good win ratio of around 50/55% got to 100% win ratio if they get double turn. And that is IMO bad. Any rule that makes people get such a boost to win ratio on a single roll should not be there, or at least it should be balanced somehow. And no I don't think that play more LoS terrain is the anwser to everything.

 

Quote

Then move some natural ranged attacks - breath weapon, banshee wail, etc - to melee and the game becomes far more streamlined in terms of concept to gameplay translation. 

Ok, but what to do with units like huskards that are big high cost melee units with a shoting ability, that is suppose to replace the lack of magic/shoting/etc in the whole army. If he can't shot when he is engange then he makes no sense at all.

[Ahn-ket]

I think I have read something for the "double turn problem" 

Actually both player roll a die that one who rolls higher get the turn. On a tie you roll again 

Maybe in future both player roll a die that one who rolls higher get the turn. On a tie the player who hasn't the last turn get it. Maybe you could use command points to improve your die roll

[Ahn-ket]

I don't think summoning would cost command points because it's a 50 percent chance to get but maybe you could spend command points before you roll the dice to improve it 

For artefacts it would be like it is for 40k first one is free the second cost 1 point and third cost additional 2 and command abilities I think the first one is free every other one cost 1 point per use per turn

[Aeryenn]

4 minutes ago, Ahn-ket said:

 

For artefacts it would be like it is for 40k first one is free the second cost 1 point and third cost additional 2 and command abilities I think the first one is free every other one cost 1 point per use per turn

And how many command points do you have to spend at the beginning of a 2k match? Are those points generated through out the game? 

[Ahn-ket]

 

2 minutes ago, Aryann said:

And how many command points do you have to spend at the beginning of a 2k match? Are those points generated through out the game? 

No real ideas for that but maybe you get an amount of x point for being battleforged in a grand alliance plus Y points if you use a sub faction alliance

[Kramer]

4 hours ago, Brightstar said:

Couldn't agree more. Except i would want something like necromunda where you would have the option to activate multiple units at a time. 

I also think if shooting was integrated into the combat phase it would iron out some of the problems with shooting. So you would have to choose to fight with all melee weapons or shoot with all weapons. Then move some natural ranged attacks - breath weapon, banshee wail, etc - to melee and the game becomes far more streamlined in terms of concept to gameplay translation. 

 

 Could work although I would miss having the chance to shoot those last couple of models of to free my heavy hitter up to charge and fight in the same turn. Those are some exciting shooting phases! ?

[Ahn-ket]

Another idea for command points is to tie it to the army points so that you get maybe 2 point per 250 points in your army 

And there could maybe a rule to get back cp's which are spend during the game on roll of 5+ like 40k has as a command ability or stratagem 

[pseudonyme]

Maybe thé Malign portents Prophecy points where an experiment for commandé points. Instead of wizards and priests, it is leader/hero dépendant.

[Ahn-ket]

5 minutes ago, pseudonyme said:

Maybe thé Malign portents Prophecy points where an experiment for commandé points. Instead of wizards and priests, it is leader/hero dépendant.

Could be another variant for it so you get  x cp's every turn to spend but then how would you get artefacts if they are not tied to or if battalions are removed entirely (which I don't think would be the case because every tome has them including the new) 

[Chikout]

We will probably see some details of the new rules in a few hours so I will throw my hat into the prediction/ wish list ring now. 

A modified roll would not make the double turn any more strategic. What I would like to see is some form of sequence breaking action the player being double turned could take. For example if I choose to take the double turn the other player gets to take a number of  actions like moving a vulnerable unit out of harms way or shooting out of sequence. These could be tied to command points. If I choose not to take the double turn the other player does not get access to these actions. This would increase the risk/ reward of the double turn and also give the other player more involvement in the game during that time.

I hope that command points are not tied too strongly to army composition. The system we have now works well enough to limit excessive spam while allowing a certain amount of freedom to build armies to the players taste. A flat number based on points would be ideal.

[Ahn-ket]

Nice idea for the double turn thing @Chikout 

[AlphaKennyThing]

2 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

I don't know if it is just us, but one of the orgenisers at our store did a check of how often people who get double turns win comparing to when they do not get double turns and it was way over 100%. Doesn't help me as 0x2 is still 0, but for other people this means that their armies who have a good win ratio of around 50/55% got to 100% win ratio if they get double turn. And that is IMO bad. Any rule that makes people get such a boost to win ratio on a single roll should not be there, or at least it should be balanced somehow. And no I don't think that play more LoS terrain is the anwser to everything.

It's just you. Since 2015, I have never lost a game to a double turn, nor have I ever won a game because of a double turn. It has given my opponent a huge advantage at times, and put me on the back foot, not because they got to go twice, but because I risked action(s) with units that I knew would backfire if I got double turned. And there's the key sentence. The double turn, as others have said, mimmicks the uncertainty and confusion of real warfare, and as a military officer for real, I personally love that aspect. 

If you fail to consider every action with your units, and fail to consider the second and third order effects of your decisions, you will have a bad time and you'll claim the double turn is OP. Whether or not you charge, or if you don't move, or what objectives are at risk for not one but two consecutive turns, and a myriad of other factors - has to be considered. It is this aspect of AoS that makes it, in some ways, deceptively complex compared to 40k and absolutely punishes players who do not factor in what happens if you lose the initiative and get double turned. With 40k it is pretty linear and pretty easy to work out how far things can move and how long it will take them to cover ground, how much damage you're likely to take from what unit, what you can hide or screen etc. With AoS you have a lot more to consider, and I personally like it a lot.

With the ability to lock down ranged units, the double turn is going to become even more important for ranged armies. Gunline armies that get engaged in the opponent's turn could spend their own turn falling back, and bank on a double turn to be able to move back further and unleash another hail of shots.

[stato]

Can i suggest we put the 'double turn conversation' on hold for now? at least until details of 2nd edition double-turn is revealed.

There are already hundreds of threads about it (and spolied by it) as its such a divisive topic its just going to swamp every other conversation in this thread.

[AlphaKennyThing]

Yeah, it's there to stay Stato so we may aswell move on to new ground.

How will the roll off for first turn change? Any news on that?

[Ollie Grimwood]

I’m going to be disappointed if all shooting is stopped when in combat. Not being able to shoot a distant target when someone is trying to smash your head is fine* but not being able to shoot at the thing trying to smash your head in is just daft.   

 

* although I could certainly see Stormcast and Kurnoth hunters punting Grots as they take long range shots elsewhere 

[AaronWilson]

Interesting discussion topic, in 40k (Bar pistols) shooting into / out of combat has never been a thing. A lot of people here seem to think if it was changed to no shooting when locked in combat it would be very bad for the game. How comes? 

[Dragobeth]

Seeing the Command Dices... could be possible that we will get a system where you throw the dices and that determines what kind of CP you get that turn?

I mean, the dices has 6 different icons (one with a feet, other with a sword iirc, I asume it has 6 different) It could be that you can use those CP to enhance that type of actions of your army, like you get 3 "movement CP", 2 "combat CP", 1 "shoot CP", 1 "general CP" and you can use them that turn (using the movement one to make a unit run the max distance posible without having to throw the dice ti see how much you run, the general one for general abilities, etc)

On the other hand, they can just be like the wound dices, to track things (I revised the images and they just have some numbers, a foot and some kind of wall, maybe to track if someone is in cover or something)

[hughwyeth]

2 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Interesting discussion topic, in 40k (Bar pistols) shooting into / out of combat has never been a thing. A lot of people here seem to think if it was changed to no shooting when locked in combat it would be very bad for the game. How comes? 

Nearly all units in 40k can shoot, so removing it from combat affects everyone equally. Most AoS units cannot shoot, so those few units who can (and who's points cost reflect that) may lose a lot of their purpose if the shooting rules are changed. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

10 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Interesting discussion topic, in 40k (Bar pistols) shooting into / out of combat has never been a thing. A lot of people here seem to think if it was changed to no shooting when locked in combat it would be very bad for the game. How comes? 

Less cinematic for me. Ranged troopers getting desperate last second shots off tends to be a bit of feature in a lot of scenes.  Also quite a few ranged attacks aren’t necessarily mechanical, whips, bone tentacles, fire breath or vomit things you’d definitely still use in close 

Seems even more strange in 40K where almost everyone is packing some sort of automatic assault weapon. 

 

[Turragor]

I feel like there are a lot of unsubstantiated claims spreading at the moment. And a chunk of 'this is absolutely the most important thing that needs to change from AoS 1 to AoS 2' for good measure.

People's mileages have varied and continue to vary - see debates over shooting and double turn for instance.

Hopefully the new rules take a balanced approach based on an average of a lot of user feedback. Not isolated complaints from smaller excitable groups.

We don't want TGA to stand for The Grand Anecdote do we?