The "mortals redesign" Discussion

[RyantheFett]

I do wonder how well DBC could of done if they did make it a human only faction and at the same time retire every model in Cities? Of course, it looks like it is just Freeguild and some of the other races, but still would have been interesting to see the community reaction.

............. And the sad realization that it has been months since any update lol.

Edited September 8, 2022 by RyantheFett

[novakai]

1 hour ago, RyantheFett said:

I do wonder how well DBC could of done if they did make it a human only faction and at the same time retire all the models in the Cities? Of course it looks like it is just Freeguild and some of the other races, but still would have been interesting to see the community react.

............. And the sad realization that it has been months since any update lol.

the thing is people have been harping about human and needing a regular human army in AOS for years even when Cities came out and not fulfilling that role in the lore, this whole project was probably use to fufill what the community had wanted back then and now.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Enough speculation! Time for some wishlisting instead. Other than a refresh of all the old kits that just don't look good anymore, what would you like to see?

I would love to see the Freeguild develop into two directions: More modern gunpowder focused troops on the one hand, and more heavily armoured melee guys on the other.

I think we are almost certain to see a stronger focus on gunpowder units and steam machines. Currently we don't have an elite gunpowder kit in the Freeguild range, so I think that would be an obvious place for a range expansion. I could see something like sniper squads, a foot unit with repeater handguns or grenade launchers or Freeguild scouts that act like shadow warriors currently do. It would also be nice to get a dedicated ranged support hero. Maybe something like a sniper/spotter kind of deal? A long range guy who marks a target and gives everyone else bonuses against them.

Steam vehicles have a lot of room for cool new stuff, as well. I think retiring the old artillery kits for new self driving steam versions would not be the worst. Like a helstorm rocket battery on steam chassis for normal artillery (but good this time) and a helblaster version that can fill anti-infantry/anti-air roles. We are almost certain to get a cogfort in my mind, so the role of "big steam tank" is covered. Maybe a small steam vehicle could be interesting, though. If the Steam Tank is the Kharadron Frigate of the the land, there could be a vehicle (steam jeep?) that fills the role of a Gunhauler.

On the other end of the spectrum, I think leaning into the phantastical beasts of the mortal realms with more knightly units would be a good addition, too. We already have the Demigryph knights and Griffon kit, something along those lines. Greatswords could definitely be reimagined as a more heavily armoured elite melee unit. We already saw what that could look like with Emelda Braskov from Cursed City. Maybe more traditional cavalry units on horseback could also be part of this.

In Warhammer Fantasy, having the Empire troops be lightly armoured was always a bit of an anachronism, since that was really a response to the widespread use of gunpowder weapons. I think in AoS, where there are a lot of threats around against which armour would definitely be a really effective defense, it would be nice to see this reflected in the troops that Cities gets access to. Plus, without Bretonnians around, there is actually not really a medieval faction in the game.

[Asbestress]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Enough speculation! Time for some wishlisting instead. Other than a refresh of all the old kits that just don't look good anymore, what would you like to see?

I would love to see the Freeguild develop into two directions: More modern gunpowder focused troops on the one hand, and more heavily armoured melee guys on the other.

I think we are almost certain to see a stronger focus on gunpowder units and steam machines. Currently we don't have an elite gunpowder kit in the Freeguild range, so I think that would be an obvious place for a range expansion. I could see something like sniper squads, a foot unit with repeater handguns or grenade launchers or Freeguild scouts that act like shadow warriors currently do. It would also be nice to get a dedicated ranged support hero. Maybe something like a sniper/spotter kind of deal? A long range guy who marks a target and gives everyone else bonuses against them.

Steam vehicles have a lot of room for cool new stuff, as well. I think retiring the old artillery kits for new self driving steam versions would not be the worst. Like a helstorm rocket battery on steam chassis for normal artillery (but good this time) and a helblaster version that can fill anti-infantry/anti-air roles. We are almost certain to get a cogfort in my mind, so the role of "big steam tank" is covered. Maybe a small steam vehicle could be interesting, though. If the Steam Tank is the Kharadron Frigate of the the land, there could be a vehicle (steam jeep?) that fills the role of a Gunhauler.

On the other end of the spectrum, I think leaning into the phantastical beasts of the mortal realms with more knightly units would be a good addition, too. We already have the Demigryph knights and Griffon kit, something along those lines. Greatswords could definitely be reimagined as a more heavily armoured elite melee unit. We already saw what that could look like with Emelda Braskov from Cursed City. Maybe more traditional cavalry units on horseback could also be part of this.

In Warhammer Fantasy, having the Empire troops be lightly armoured was always a bit of an anachronism, since that was really a response to the widespread use of gunpowder weapons. I think in AoS, where there are a lot of threats around against which armour would definitely be a really effective defense, it would be nice to see this reflected in the troops that Cities gets access to. Plus, without Bretonnians around, there is actually not really a medieval faction in the game.

In terms of "expanding Freeguild in two directions", I think new/refreshed gunpowder units will be kept to Ironweld (Ironweld Handgunners?). I also hope they embrace more of the light steampunky weirdness that Empire engineers had, and, for example, give some wacky equipment to a potential new sniper/elite ranged unit. I also think a new Ironweld Engineer could fill the role of a ranged/support hero, although that may make the Cogsmith redundant.

I kinda hope that not every piece of current/former Ironweld equipment (Cannon, Helblaster/Helstorm) will get a chassis and steam engine (although an Ironweld Steam Train would be AMAZING), because it would be a nice contrast of "basic massed artillery" vs "COGFORT". On the topic of the Cogfort, I kinda hope that they make it something more than just "Steam Tank but big", because most official art we've seen so far has felt pretty uninspired to me. I'm also curious if they will keep the current Steam Tank kit (as I think it's still absolutely amazing, although a bit tricky to assemble, and the gunner could use some updating), or make a new one, with more weapon options perhaps?
Also, for the "Grundstok Gunhauler equivalent", maybe we could get the Gunwalkers mentioned in the CoS Battletome as the smaller steam machine? It'd give a useful fast glass cannon unit to the collection of steam machines.

I'm actually thinking they might move away from the "fantastical beasts" aspect of the Cities, keeping the Demigryphs and Griffons as elite units, and leaning more into "regular horse", like the Lumineth. Also, we got dogs instead of gryph-hounds for Hexbane's Hunters, so probably no beaky good boys for new characters  

And yeah, more armour is always good.

[Whitefang]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In Warhammer Fantasy, having the Empire troops be lightly armoured was always a bit of an anachronism, since that was really a response to the widespread use of gunpowder weapons. I think in AoS, where there are a lot of threats around against which armour would definitely be a really effective defense, it would be nice to see this reflected in the troops that Cities gets access to. Plus, without Bretonnians around, there is actually not really a medieval faction in the game.

Yes, I totally agree

[Pariah7echo]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Enough speculation! Time for some wishlisting instead. Other than a refresh of all the old kits that just don't look good anymore, what would you like to see?

I would love to see the Freeguild develop into two directions: More modern gunpowder focused troops on the one hand, and more heavily armoured melee guys on the other.

I think we are almost certain to see a stronger focus on gunpowder units and steam machines. Currently we don't have an elite gunpowder kit in the Freeguild range, so I think that would be an obvious place for a range expansion. I could see something like sniper squads, a foot unit with repeater handguns or grenade launchers or Freeguild scouts that act like shadow warriors currently do. It would also be nice to get a dedicated ranged support hero. Maybe something like a sniper/spotter kind of deal? A long range guy who marks a target and gives everyone else bonuses against them.

Steam vehicles have a lot of room for cool new stuff, as well. I think retiring the old artillery kits for new self driving steam versions would not be the worst. Like a helstorm rocket battery on steam chassis for normal artillery (but good this time) and a helblaster version that can fill anti-infantry/anti-air roles. We are almost certain to get a cogfort in my mind, so the role of "big steam tank" is covered. Maybe a small steam vehicle could be interesting, though. If the Steam Tank is the Kharadron Frigate of the the land, there could be a vehicle (steam jeep?) that fills the role of a Gunhauler.

On the other end of the spectrum, I think leaning into the phantastical beasts of the mortal realms with more knightly units would be a good addition, too. We already have the Demigryph knights and Griffon kit, something along those lines. Greatswords could definitely be reimagined as a more heavily armoured elite melee unit. We already saw what that could look like with Emelda Braskov from Cursed City. Maybe more traditional cavalry units on horseback could also be part of this.

In Warhammer Fantasy, having the Empire troops be lightly armoured was always a bit of an anachronism, since that was really a response to the widespread use of gunpowder weapons. I think in AoS, where there are a lot of threats around against which armour would definitely be a really effective defense, it would be nice to see this reflected in the troops that Cities gets access to. Plus, without Bretonnians around, there is actually not really a medieval faction in the game.

I think the one part you're missing here is the priesthood. It's almost certain we'll get some sort of priests of sigmar with the updated humans. Personally I think it would be nice if they filled the role of elite mounted unit, like the old Knights of the White Wolf. Would also give you a contrast with the devoted rabble that is flagellents. And you could argue would be a small bretonnia sub-action added back to the humans.

And personally I think the priests of sigmar will be different from the Order of Azyr we've seen. They'll probably share similarities, but I just cant see the order having a standing army of its own. They just feel more like 40k inquisitors with their small warbands.

[Asbestress]

4 minutes ago, Pariah7echo said:

I think the one part you're missing here is the priesthood. It's almost certain we'll get some sort of priests of sigmar with the updated humans. Personally I think it would be nice if they filled the role of elite mounted unit, like the old Knights of the White Wolf. Would also give you a contrast with the devoted rabble that is flagellents. And you could argue would be a small bretonnia sub-action added back to the humans.

And personally I think the priests of sigmar will be different from the Order of Azyr we've seen. They'll probably share similarities, but I just cant see the order having a standing army of its own. They just feel more like 40k inquisitors with their small warbands.

Devoted will probably just become Order of Azyr, and get a Flagellant kit refresh and some generic Witch Hunters and Priests I reckon with maybe some special units.

[CDM]

I'd like to see most of the human elements of CoS replaced but keep the multi race, elf, dwarf, human feature which is the best part!

I think the DBC is more of narrative point than a sub faction. I think this may be the biggest realease in a number of years. Although will be split up into several realeases ala lumineth.

Wishlisting /speculation 

All elves and dwarves we have already stay 

Most freeguild gone. Maybe just demigryphs, greatswords and the ones part of the ironweld arsenal survive.

Wave 1 Order of Azyr with a few witch Hunters and priests to go with Hexbanes hunters. We haven't had a warrior preist model for a while have we? And some elite knights like Emelda braskov. Expand battlemages so there's a model for each realm

Wave 2 Expansion of ironweld arsenal, cog forts, regular troops with rifles, new artillery. These fit with chamon, grey water fastness etc 

Wave 3 Realm based troops. A couple of realm specific units for each realm, could be an order equivalent of warcry . E.g beast masters for ghur,  dead ancestor protection for shyish, heavily armoured chamon troops etc 

Would be so many options for free cities, realms, races. Could see it being the largest battletome

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Freypal]

Be interested to see if the humans keep their large mythical monsters of old (or indeed get new and different ones). Thinking the heroes on griffon for example. Or if they'll become more "grounded" with troops, horses and war machines only. 

I'm hoping there's some kind of monster mount still for a bit of variety. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Freypal said:

Be interested to see if the humans keep their large mythical monsters of old (or indeed get new and different ones). Thinking the heroes on griffon for example. Or if they'll become more "grounded" with troops, horses and war machines only. 

I'm hoping there's some kind of monster mount still for a bit of variety. 

Honestly, the biggest obstacle the Griffon and Hurricanum kits face is that they have "Karl Franz" written on them. Otherwise they fit AoS better than most. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Honestly, the biggest obstacle the Griffon and Hurricanum kits face is that they have "Karl Franz" written on them. Otherwise they fit AoS better than most. 

Sad whitefang reaction, but if that means we are getting a new Hurricanum kit I'm not sad about it. I will paint another buff wagon any day.

[Freypal]

I always had a soft spot for the Bretonnian hippogryph in particular. My uninformed guess is the monsters will go... GW seemed to have put a lot of monster ideas into stormcast. 

A glow up of the hurricanum would be lovely. Just like what they did with the black coach...?

[Chikout]

I really hope there are monsters and unusual creatures in the army as well as regular horses. I know this is intended to be the army of "normal" people but I don't want gw to shy away from the inherent weirdness of the setting. 

 

[RyantheFett]

Really only two things on my wish list:

1. Heavy cavalry. Would take some monster ones, but would really like some normal horses in there.
2. Some pro kit bashing/proxy options. Like really cool they are replacing the Griffin and hurricanum, but hopefully the bases stay the same size so we can still use ours (or kit bash them with spare parts). Same for the nonhuman races they will cut/keep. Hopefully they just remove redundant ones that we could  easily mix and match with ones that are kept in the faction.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Sad whitefang reaction, but if that means we are getting a new Hurricanum kit I'm not sad about it. I will paint another buff wagon any day.

Another sad face? I'll be surprised if the Hurricanum/Luminark is out completely as a unit, since they feature so heavily in the lore, most recently in the defeat of Nagash.

[RyantheFett]

8 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Another sad face? I'll be surprised if the Hurricanum/Luminark is out completely as a unit, since they feature so heavily in the lore, most recently in the defeat of Nagash.

In theory they could have used the DBC to remove everything in Cities from the game, but still keep it all canon. Just say it is a human only crusade and most of their stuff they had to leave/stayed back in the cities for whatever reasons. "Hurricanums are too complex to travel hundreds of miles and needs to stay inside a major city" or something like that lol. No need to retcon dozens of books then!

Fortunately, they did not go that way..................... yet!!!!!! lol

[EccentricCircle]

10 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Honestly, the biggest obstacle the Griffon and Hurricanum kits face is that they have "Karl Franz" written on them. Otherwise they fit AoS better than most. 

I mean the Griffon doesn't just have the words "Karl Franz" on it, it's also being ridden by the man himself!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

I mean the Griffon doesn't just have the words "Karl Franz" on it, it's also being ridden by the man himself!

I have it on good authority that that is just a Freeguild General with a non plot relevant warhammer

[Asbestress]

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

HAND-CANNON! HUGE AXE! BY SIGMAR! These are absolutely fabulous!

Also, humans AND duardins and aelves were mentioned in the article, so maybe they won't be cutting out every non-human unit 😛 

[xking]

Guns are too primitive. 

[Baron Klatz]

I mean I hope we get some really crazy tech and 19th century clothing pushing on 40k cosmetics from Greywater, Ironweld, Azyr and Settlers Gain(that one has solar powered robots) but these are fine.

If new Cities of Sigmar are also to represent the countless smaller kingdoms, baronies, merchant city-states and councils out there building their new settlements then a lot of them are gonna have to make do with primitive equipment they can easily make and maintain in the Realms. And the weapons are fancy and exaggerated enough to keep the AoS aesthetic going.

I also like the royal emblems are showing up more on them. Reminds me of both the fragments of living and dead free city kings we’ve seen.

 

Edit: seeing a tech levels debate going around regarding these primitive firearms vs advanced Ironweld repeaters.

Remember the Realms are infinitely vast so too are the wildly differing levels of tech you can find with so many tribes, kingdoms and metropolis level civilizations next to eachother surviving in hostile realmscapes.

 

The Ironweld advanced weapons and robot-level stuff aren’t everywhere. Sometimes free cities are going straight up Primal to Ancient Greek civ levels in their homes with Steampunk on the outskirts of never even heard of.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Segersgia]

I really like the new Gunpowder Weapons on this. One thing I desperately wanted out of the CoS was that the faction became distinct from the Old World Factions that it used to take its units from. Make the CoS look different from the Empire, the Dwarfs and Elves from Fantasy.

 

In fact, the way that the designs look feels like a cool mix between Bretonnian and Empire aesthetics. It looks aesthetically very Medieval French, while also looking very "heavy".

[Greyshadow]

I really like this direction, I hope they retain the overall look of a historical massed ranked army that fights with sword and shield. I am even optimistic I may be able to combine my existing Freeguild collection with these future kits. Looking very promising. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Greyshadow

[Fellman]

Now i know way Wihitefang gave me a sad face this does look mor like bretonia empire then iqusadors 

[Me-dude-sa]

On 9/9/2022 at 8:22 AM, Asbestress said:

Devoted will probably just become Order of Azyr, and get a Flagellant kit refresh and some generic Witch Hunters and Priests I reckon with maybe some special units.

I hope that when or if the Order of Azyr get their update, they kind of lean into how the Order is a pantheon and we get priests  and clerics based around some of the other key deities or godbeasts. Or even have those queues present in normal units.