latest white dwarf changes

[MrRipper707]

I have to say im quite demoralized with the direction STD is heading. Alot of our units are incompatible with our own rules and with the latest faction update via White Dwarf I have to say its just depressing. Chaos as a faction was never about low tier chaff cultists or maurauders. It feels like there is no place in this game for the iconic std units that define chaos IE chosen, chaos warriors, or Chaos Knights. There doesn't seem to be a place for players who want to play without using archaon or bel'akor.

Chaos used to be about heavy armored elite killers. They had no meaningful ranged options often to make up for their hardiness. Now they seem to be usurped by SCE and this is just disgusting. Sigmarines in their own lore are said to be equals to chaos warriors yet when we look at liberators its pretty close they are very similar statwise. But when it comes to say Chosen vs retributors this flies out the window completely which is really a shame considering that there a hundred different chapters of sigmarines to use but chaos only has 2 armored infantry options. Chaos warriors and chosen. Retributors deal nearly 2x the damage chosen deal to most other targets they could expect to face while having 3 wounds and a +3 save to a chosen 2wounds 4+ up save mean while chosen have no reliable form of range support the way SCE do in the way of ranged damage dealers.  

Coming from a lore perspective the Chosen often have lived for hundreds of years and have to survive on the one life they have, any mistake results in spawning rather than reincarnation, they compete against the vastly numerically superior hordes of chaos to become chosen by the chaos gods to recieve their blessings. Whereas a retributors can die, have a vastly smaller pool of competition, and can make mistakes whenever without significant ramifications to them.

Why would a chosen of chaos ever want to be permanently sealed inside their ****** 4+ armor when they could potentially loot a set off a fallen sigmarine. Why would the chaos gods want them inside it when its really very subpar?

Honestly chosen should be buffed to match what they are in their lore and in there faction identity.

Chaos Knights are not as egregious of offenders but in a faction that has no meaningful ranged units in a world of unleash hell shooters they really could use some help.

 

Honestly I hate this because i have no idea when The Old World will come out and playing in the age of sigmar has me seriously demoralized. When elven militiamen have the same damage resistance as the chosen of the dark gods.

[Charlo]

The best thing to do is forget about Warhammer Fantasy when looking at Chaos in AoS. The landscape is entirely different.

In WHFB, Chaos were but tribes in the north - only the most hard and badass could survive there, let alone make the journey south past Kislev etc.

In AoS, Chaos has already won! It's followers are the de-facto population in most of the realms. Anyone not inside the safety of the Cities of Sigmar follows the Chaos Pantheon in one of untold number of forms. The path to glory is attempted by billions instead of potentially thousands, but Chaos has all but won already - champions are few and far between. In AoS Chaos is millions of warring cultists that occasionally gather into an unstoppable horde to fight against Order/ Death/ Destruction.

Not to mention the focus on God-specific factions have gotten a lot of attention in AoS and left the "core" warriors/ knights etc a little left behind.

I absolutely feel your sentiment though, those of us who love the wall of rock-hard black armour crushing all before them, surrounded by all manner of madness inducing nonsense is what drew me to Warriors of Chaos too! However the Battletome is Slaves to Darkness, not Warriors of Chaos!

Ultimately Cultists were made for Warcry and given rules in AoS so they're usable - the WD update at least shows that the design team see their use within the faction and confirm the direction they want them to go. Hopefully, when S2D get a new 'tome all of the warscrolls will receive a few extra buffs in line with what the Stormcast/ Orruks got to bring them in-line with AoS3 power levels, cultists included! Some of the "gimmicks" are so weak they'll never be used, but I'd love for them to all be viable with a bit of a niche, especially the Fire ones!

[HollowHills]

The WD update is amazing!

StD now have access to some of the cheapest and best battleline in the game. Iron golems gives you 10 wounds for 75 points that can easily be on a 3 up rerolling 1s with a 6 up ward. They aren't going to kill anything, but you have other stuff in the list for that.

Untamed beasts are snazzy for a cheap screen and the pre game move means you can throw out some objective pressure or redeploy your screen.

Also the marks of chaos are some of the most powerful allegiance abilities in AoS 3 and they haven't been changed. StD are an A tier faction right now and just got better.

As for the heavy units, obviously Varanguard are exceptional but I still think you can make an argument for knights and warriors. It might not be a top tier list, but knights have a good balance of damage and survivability and can be buffed nicely with marks. Nurgle marked warriors can be extremely durable if you're interested in more of an attrition list.

I've seen a couple of decent lists in both StD and Tzeentch that use chaos chosen. Not really for their damage, but for the buff they provide.

As for the lore I'm not massively up to date but my understanding is that chaos warriors are elite troops who have proven themselves and have better equipment, but are basically just random men and women who live in parts of the realms ruled by chaos.

Cultists are rank and file soldiers / auxiliaries from different cities under chaos. 

Slaves to Darkness is a catch all term for any human civilisation that is under the rule of chaos. Whereas the individual God armies are more specific, like secret cults devoted to Tzeentch or a particular tribe from Aqshy that worships Khorne.

[MrRipper707]

8 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

As for the lore I'm not massively up to date but my understanding is that chaos warriors are elite troops who have proven themselves and have better equipment, but are basically just random men and women who live in parts of the realms ruled by chaos.

Cultists are rank and file soldiers / auxiliaries from different cities under chaos. 

Slaves to Darkness is a catch all term for any human civilisation that is under the rule of chaos. Whereas the individual God armies are more specific, like secret cults devoted to Tzeentch or a particular tribe from Aqshy that worships Khorne.

My issue isn't that chaos isn't good. Bel'akor and archaon are amazing as are iron golem. But those aren't the chaos defining defining units that have historically been the posterchild for this stronger. Chaos warriors are not just average men and women who got some armor they have taken their devotion to the next level and have forsaken everything that makes a normal life. "The armor they wear is thick and strong marked with dark runes that bolster" the wearers strength and stamina" "their physiques strengthened by gifts from their dark guards and their battle instincts have been honed to a terrifying edge." Straight from their battle tome description. The cultists themselves are a small part of the hordes of chaos as well. The majority of their manpower being provided by marauders. Chaos warriors often have blessings like altered limbs enhanced reflexes and gorilla like strength or being sealed inside their hellforged armor. "Their wicked weapons can rend flesh or crush bones with a single blow." 

[Charleston]

Well, S2D is about all the different clans and peoples falling to chaos. The main connection between their lore and gameplay is not in the heavy chaoswarriors of old WHFB times but more in the fact that you have a lot of variation between units, suballigiences and buffs. S2D can be an elitist hort of Varanguard with Archaon at it's helm, but it can be also the Deamonprince-Monster-Army of Despoilers, a Cabalite Coven or just loads of Fanatics or Marauders. But yes, it is a shame that Chaos Warriors and Knights, who are the most recognized Chaos Units, are luckluster compared to other factions and also have no subfaction on their own, making lore and gameplay feel contradicting. Khorne is in a similar spot: Lore is all about reckless combat which is the one thing you really can not afford the way the book is written.

[MrRipper707]

5 hours ago, Charlo said:

The best thing to do is forget about Warhammer Fantasy when looking at Chaos in AoS. The landscape is entirely different.

Why do you feel the need to hurt me like this? 😢

[Eldarain]

When your core faction identity is ascending the Path to Glory for personal power you've gone wrong somewhere when the best fighters are at the bottom of the ladder and your non-named leaders are weak buffbots that project auras to help the aspiring (What is this Cities?)

[annarborhawk]

Maybe we get a new book on the sooner side when they finally get around to releasing the new Warriors and Knights (and Krak Lord) in individual boxes. It would also be a great opportunity to release new chosen models. I imagine GW's designers would come up with something mouth-watering for new chaos chosen.

 

And I whole-heatedly agree with OP. Warriors and Knights have been left in the dust compared to what they should be. And gameplay-wise it sucks to be reliant on the survivability of easy to snipe heroes for your main allegiance ability to be active. 

[Pyrescribe]

I'm not playing remotely close to the highest level, so I'm having fun putting blobs of warriors and knights (with Varanguard) on the table. I agree with the general sentiment however. To be honest, now that Stormcast tower over Chaos Warriors, I get a strange underdog vibe in my gut--like the Chaos Warriors had to strike a bargain with the gods at the cost of their soul just to be able to stand up to the onslaught of the oppressive Sigmarites.

[annarborhawk]

23 hours ago, Eldarain said:

When your core faction identity is ascending the Path to Glory for personal power you've gone wrong somewhere when the best fighters are at the bottom of the ladder and your non-named leaders are weak buffbots that project auras to help the aspiring (What is this Cities?)

Our foot Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorceror Lords - if the Lore is meant to be taken seriously - should have greatly buffed survivability (maybe a wound shrug to nearby Cultists/Warriors?) and effectiveness, even if it means a major point increase. Lore-wise, we should be a top-heavy faction.  Meanwhile, only the Krack Lord has staying power.

[MrRipper707]

2 hours ago, annarborhawk said:

Our foot Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorceror Lords - if the Lore is meant to be taken seriously - should have greatly buffed survivability (maybe a wound shrug to nearby Cultists/Warriors?) and effectiveness, even if it means a major point increase. Lore-wise, we should be a top-heavy faction.  Meanwhile, only the Krack Lord has staying power.

Big facts. The marauder bonuses really need to be moved to other units. Charges to knights and rend to chaos warriors as a start. Or visa versa is fine with me too tbh. Im fine with points increases for chosen and knights foot lords and sorcerers but the warscrolls setting lore are incongruent

Edited September 22, 2021 by MrRipper707

[Kurrilino]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:51 AM, HollowHills said:

Also the marks of chaos are some of the most powerful allegiance abilities in AoS 3 and they haven't been changed. StD are an A tier faction right now and just got better.

 

You must have been out of town for a while.

StD is a one trick Marauder pony which crumbles instantly as soon as you meet an army which is able to deny any kind of weak magic.

And there are lot's of armies out there who deny spells table wide without even rolling dice.

 

Where the hell you get A-Tier from is far beyond me when every even remotely involved expert is ranking them lowest tier.

In fact they are not even played anymore at tournaments because of the baby seal clubbing .

I just went through the ITC tournament scores for 2021 and found StD in whopping 2 tourneys being best ranked #9.

 

Would you be so kind to enlighten us, what you figured out that nobody else has?

[Kurrilino]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:51 AM, HollowHills said:

As for the lore I'm not massively up to date but my understanding is that chaos warriors are elite troops who have proven themselves and have better equipment, but are basically just random men and women who live in parts of the realms ruled by chaos.

Cultists are rank and file soldiers / auxiliaries from different cities under chaos. 

 

The lore is basically the same. The mortals who prove them self through archievent in combat move up to be Chaos warriors -> Knights-> Chosen -> Exhalted Hero-> Lord etc.

The only way to move up is the most violent and crushing combat victories.

 

So having the Marauders being better fighters than Warriors is laughable, same as Knights having the same stats as Warriors just on horses.

[MrRipper707]

7 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

You must have been out of town for a while.

StD is a one trick Marauder pony which crumbles instantly as soon as you meet an army which is able to deny any kind of weak magic.

And there are lot's of armies out there who deny spells table wide without even rolling dice.

 

Where the hell you get A-Tier from is far beyond me when every even remotely involved expert is ranking them lowest tier.

In fact they are not even played anymore at tournaments because of the baby seal clubbing .

I just went through the ITC tournament scores for 2021 and found StD in whopping 2 tourneys being best ranked #9.

 

Would you be so kind to enlighten us, what you figured out that nobody else has?

Oh man sad if true. I didn't think it was that bad 😢

[HollowHills]

9 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

You must have been out of town for a while.

StD is a one trick Marauder pony which crumbles instantly as soon as you meet an army which is able to deny any kind of weak magic.

And there are lot's of armies out there who deny spells table wide without even rolling dice.

 

Where the hell you get A-Tier from is far beyond me when every even remotely involved expert is ranking them lowest tier.

In fact they are not even played anymore at tournaments because of the baby seal clubbing .

I just went through the ITC tournament scores for 2021 and found StD in whopping 2 tourneys being best ranked #9.

 

Would you be so kind to enlighten us, what you figured out that nobody else has?

I feel like the tone you've taken here is pretty passive aggressive, but I'm still going to answer.

As most rerolls have been removed and save stacking now exists mark of tzeentch is extremely powerful on several units, such as Varanguard and Archaon.

There are a variety of StD lists doing extremely well on the UK tournament scene including winning the recent Facehammer GT at element games. Varanguard + Archaon in Hosts of the Everchosen, Despoilers with a focus on daemon princes or also including Archaon. I also personally believe there is mileage in Knights of the Empty Throne.

You are regularly seeing StD going 5-0 or 4-1 at major events.

[Enoby]

I mentioned it on the main thread, but after picking up my S2D again for Path to Glory after putting them down from 2k points games a while ago, I can echo the sentiment that we don't feel as we should.

I've said it before, but S2D are a very fun army to play, and they're also very strong with some builds. If you want a thinking army focusing on buffs and objective capturing, as well as control spells and units with cheap chaff, S2D is great.

If you want to feel like you're walking down the Eight-fold Path to glory or damnation, you're out of luck - this Eight-fold Path takes you from the fastest person in the world as a Marauder to a buff bot who'll not see combat as a Lord. 

No, they're not weak, but they're narratively unfulfilling. This is especially frustrating in something like PtG, where I'd like my Chaos Lord to be upfront and killing their bigger units and maybe rolling on the Eye of the Gods table. But I'm usually punished for that as they have little to no survivability or true killing power. Instead I'm better grinding down objectives and fleeing combat as I win through battleplans. This would be fine if I was playing something like Goblins, but not Slaves to Darkness. 

I think the Eye of the Gods table is the worst offender because it's so close to being cool. The concept of it - that your hero upgrades as they do dangerous deeds - is fantastic. The problem lies in the fact that these abilities work only on a very select number of units, with only one of which (Karkadrak lord) having any business in combat while not feeling like a waste of points. For every other hero, either they're not good enough to consider taking in the first place, or more likely, they do pitiful damage and have poor survivability that they'll never see the table, nevermind the fact that rolling a 7 (the most common roll) gives them nothing! 

That's not to say you can't have buffing heroes - certainly, you can and should. But a Chaos Lord can buff and also be scary in combat, and indeed should be. They didn't rise through the ranks by yelling at other people. 

While I haven't use Warriors or Knights in my PtG list, having used them at 2k, I've always been disappointed. Mostly because neither does much damage at all, while still being just okay at tanking - the best use for warriors at the time seemed to be cheap chaff, which just feels wrong. Chaos Knights may do good damage if buffed on a charge, and then flail about for a bit as they're picked off one by one. It plays into one of my most disliked tropes, where the bad guy gets their big evil power up and loses anyway, making you wonder what the whole point of it was. Slaves to Darkness feel a similar way - what's the point of selling your soul and life to the Dark Gods if you don't really end up much better for it? 

I don't think S2D is weak, but that's almost a problem, because in the next tome they can't just slap on a 3+ save on our armoured units and call it a day. The book isn't really broken, so there's not much incentive to fix it - it just doesn't play how many people think it should.

As mentioned before, Khorne shares the exact same problem, and unfortunately that's not been 'fixed' since the beginning of AoS. 

[MrRipper707]

Honestly enoby reading your response just breaks my heart. I love chaos and warhammer but honestly I'm really starting to hate age of sigmar and I can't help feel slighted by sigmarines. I think I might just end up using sigmarine rules with my chaos units as proxies. Say they fell to chaos. But I guess that doesn't really make sense because why would you sell your soul for a chance to get weaker lol.

[Kurrilino]

9 hours ago, HollowHills said:

I feel like the tone you've taken here is pretty passive aggressive, but I'm still going to answer.

As most rerolls have been removed and save stacking now exists mark of tzeentch is extremely powerful on several units, such as Varanguard and Archaon.

There are a variety of StD lists doing extremely well on the UK tournament scene including winning the recent Facehammer GT at element games. Varanguard + Archaon in Hosts of the Everchosen, Despoilers with a focus on daemon princes or also including Archaon. I also personally believe there is mileage in Knights of the Empty Throne.

You are regularly seeing StD going 5-0 or 4-1 at major events.

 

I apologize if my post came on as passive agressive, it was not intended as that at all.

Was just wondering how a single person comes up with the exact opposite outcome as everyone else and you kindly explained it.

Maybe something is really different in the UK, who knows.

I guess everyone here is still terrified of having Archaeon in the list  because of his general uselessness and pointcost before the patch 3.0

 

Would you be so kind to share some of the more successful list from the UK tournaments if available?

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Kurrilino

[annarborhawk]

That's the state of play. For StD to be competitive, you have Archaon-centered lists. Whereas if you want to run an old-school Warriors of Chaos style list, we can be a decently tanky but largerly toothless try-to-outlast-the-other-guy army (have fun grinding through 40 warriors, 4-5 units of summoned marauder horsemen/cultists, and all the other chaff I'm going to fill the board with - not fun for either of us).  

Maybe that's fine? I suppose a rationale could be when playing friendly non-competitive games, go Warriors of Chaos (via Ravegers). Think of them as skirmishes against the chaos hordes filling  the mortal realms. 

Then think of tournament games as if they were the decisive battles, where Archaon himself (or Varanguard in a KotET list) get involved.

I've yet to bring Archaon out since 3.0; I didn't want rely on him like a crutch. I wanted to make Warriors of Chaos work. But I guess I should see what all the hype is about.

Edited September 23, 2021 by annarborhawk

[Kurrilino]

9 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think the Eye of the Gods table is the worst offender because it's so close to being cool. The concept of it - that your hero upgrades as they do dangerous deeds - is fantastic. The problem lies in the fact that these abilities work only on a very select number of units, with only one of which (Karkadrak lord) having any business in combat while not feeling like a waste of points. For every other hero, either they're not good enough to consider taking in the first place, or more likely, they do pitiful damage and have poor survivability that they'll never see the table, nevermind the fact that rolling a 7 (the most common roll) gives them nothing! 

That's not to say you can't have buffing heroes - certainly, you can and should. But a Chaos Lord can buff and also be scary in combat, and indeed should be. They didn't rise through the ranks by yelling at other people. 

 

You raise very good points.

Imo there would be easy fixes to deal with it but the StD book writer seem to have no knowledge of what they are dealing with.

There would be a totally different dynamic if Eye of the Gods would apply to regular units as well, where the unit champion ascends to an exalted Hero

while all other heroes keep their additional buffs.

Also ad +1 rend to the warriors and +2 rend to chosen and Knights

Those two changes would change the feeling of the army drastically without any imbalance.

People could now chose to play the regular shenanigans or switch to a more expensive elite army style that really does stuff in combat

[HollowHills]

1 hour ago, Kurrilino said:

 

I apologize if my post came on as passive agressive, it was not intended as that at all.

Was just wondering how a single person comes up with the exact opposite outcome as everyone else and you kindly explained it.

Maybe something is really different in the UK, who knows.

I guess everyone here is still terrified of having Archaeon in the list  because of his general uselessness and pointcost before the patch 3.0

 

Would you be so kind to share some of the more successful list from the UK tournaments if available?

 

 

Sure thank you for the apology.

If you head to thehonestwargamer.com, lists and then set faction to StD there are a couple of successful lists on there.

I'm not going to lie, Archaon is the focus, but you absolutely can do well with Daemon Princes in Despoilers.

Lists might change a bit now as many will drop marauders for Iron Golems or Untamed Beasts.

[Kaleb Daark]

On 9/21/2021 at 12:21 PM, Charlo said:

The best thing to do is forget about Warhammer Fantasy when looking at Chaos in AoS. The landscape is entirely different.

In WHFB, Chaos were but tribes in the north - only the most hard and badass could survive there, let alone make the journey south past Kislev etc.

In AoS, Chaos has already won! It's followers are the de-facto population in most of the realms. Anyone not inside the safety of the Cities of Sigmar follows the Chaos Pantheon in one of untold number of forms. The path to glory is attempted by billions instead of potentially thousands, but Chaos has all but won already - champions are few and far between. In AoS Chaos is millions of warring cultists that occasionally gather into an unstoppable horde to fight against Order/ Death/ Destruction.

Not to mention the focus on God-specific factions have gotten a lot of attention in AoS and left the "core" warriors/ knights etc a little left behind.

I absolutely feel your sentiment though, those of us who love the wall of rock-hard black armour crushing all before them, surrounded by all manner of madness inducing nonsense is what drew me to Warriors of Chaos too! However the Battletome is Slaves to Darkness, not Warriors of Chaos!

Ultimately Cultists were made for Warcry and given rules in AoS so they're usable - the WD update at least shows that the design team see their use within the faction and confirm the direction they want them to go. Hopefully, when S2D get a new 'tome all of the warscrolls will receive a few extra buffs in line with what the Stormcast/ Orruks got to bring them in-line with AoS3 power levels, cultists included! Some of the "gimmicks" are so weak they'll never be used, but I'd love for them to all be viable with a bit of a niche, especially the Fire ones!

I'll take you back even earlier to the dawn of 3rd edition and slaves to darkness.

There was a table you could roll off to see what race your general or hero was - anything could fall to chaos so you could have for instance an elf or an orc as your general with his gifts and boons from the gods.

In the old lore a chaos warrior was the equivalent of a space marine, that could decimate on his own what a band of twenty would take otherwise.

I think GW has taken the stance that you're either a disciple of the god specific faction or you're just a human that doesn't worship Sigmar and that makes you a slave to darkness.  Chaos armour isn't really all that anymore, just heavy plate by any other name.

People wanted a human faction that wasn't all about big trousers and stupid feathers and we got it in the form of slaves.

Easier than giving us back the brets, after all that would have been a daft idea.  Nope, a bunch of human non sigmarite fruitloops from each of the realms all wanting a job in the big citadel at the centre of the grand travel hub is where its at.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

21 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

You must have been out of town for a while.

StD is a one trick Marauder pony which crumbles instantly as soon as you meet an army which is able to deny any kind of weak magic.

And there are lot's of armies out there who deny spells table wide without even rolling dice.

 

Where the hell you get A-Tier from is far beyond me when every even remotely involved expert is ranking them lowest tier.

In fact they are not even played anymore at tournaments because of the baby seal clubbing .

I just went through the ITC tournament scores for 2021 and found StD in whopping 2 tourneys being best ranked #9.

 

Would you be so kind to enlighten us, what you figured out that nobody else has?

IDK if you're just looking at your local stats but here in Canada there's a host of the everchosen list that's been tearing it up. Seen it first hand as a TO here in Ontario, we've got a guy that's been bodying people with Archaon, manticore sorcerer, foot sorcerer, foot lord, varanguard, knights and filling with warriors. All tzeentch marked because Archaon and varanguard on a 2+ rr1s is dumb and with oracular vision and daemonic power they tear through combats. Archaon and the varanguard go in, manticore and knights take objectives, foot heroes cheerlead archaon and the warriors are a little wall with a 3+ rr1s.

Now you can argue that the list relies too much on archaon and yeah that's every list that takes a god character. The same idea can work with knights of the empty throne spamming varanguard.

A lot of people in this thread are right that chaos undivided has been lore power creeped and gone from being impenetrable hulks of cursed muscle and steel to pallete swapped liberators and very 'mid' in all their other iconic unit types. Part of the blame is GWs focus on the god factions taking alot away from the potential design space of StD but that's not to say they can't revamp the line following the warcry red harvest or something as an excuse to drop a new line of resculpts like beefed up chosen, fallen stormcast or champion units/characters that represent what happens when one of the warcry cultists ascends the rankings along the path to glory (champion with the very eastern armoured design and flame motifs like the scions, or armour draped in flayed skin like the unmade or slimmer armour with a feathered cloak for the corvus cabal)

TLDR; GW hasn't done a great job at depicting StDs new place in metaphorical power hierarchy and StD could use a facelift. The army is still very competitive if varanguard, archaon or daemon princes and manticores are your thing.

[Popisdead]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:34 AM, MrRipper707 said:

Why do you feel the need to hurt me like this? 😢

Well,.. i think you (and most) have rose coloured glasses on.

When was chaos what you described?  I started in 6th.  Warriors were trash, in 7th they were unkillable of two death stars (cool but negative game play experience), in 8th they were trash.  

As far as "old world" no one played 8th ed when it came out.  It killed Fantasy.  More than AoS because at least AoS in 6 years has brought people back whereas Fantasy killed itself nearly to death.  I remember playing in our largest tournament every year from the end of 7th to 8th.  One year I was the only local player.  People hated the releases, they hated the supplements.  I got one Storm of Magic game in.  It was fun but people hated it.  People who played a lot of 6th and 7th quit.  

With only 8 posts so far I would guess you are here more to be upset than play AoS and sow seeds of dissent.  

 

[CommissarRotke]

4 hours ago, MrRipper707 said:

I think I might just end up using sigmarine rules with my chaos units as proxies.

this really makes no sense as most Stormcast aren't killy and even our 3.0 book isn't a slew of OP warscrolls...

On 9/21/2021 at 1:45 AM, MrRipper707 said:

Chaos as a faction was never about low tier chaff cultists or maurauders. It feels like there is no place in this game for the iconic std units that define chaos IE chosen, chaos warriors, or Chaos Knights. There doesn't seem to be a place for players who want to play without using archaon or bel'akor.

Chaos used to be about heavy armored elite killers. They had no meaningful ranged options often to make up for their hardiness. Now they seem to be usurped by SCE and this is just disgusting.

Chaos as a faction was always about cultists and the Northern marauder tribes. Chaos is nothing without them. The tabletop was/is overrepresented by Warrios/Chosen/CSM but as a whole faction, those armored elite were bastions of the Four's Favors among the thousands of regular humans vying for attention. I get your frustration but your ire with SCE is misdirected... we aren't the best faction in the game and we *also* feel like other regular units (looking at you Phoenix Guard) are much hardier than our supposed immortal supersoldiers.

Like idk man, EVERY ALLIANCE in AOS has the hulking armored brutes. Even Death got them when OBR released. It doesn't mean Chaos can't remain what it's always been.