AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Infernalslayer]

What do you think of Gravelords in 1000 points games.

Trying to avoid 400+ points characters like Vamp Lords on Dragons that could be considered overwhelming in low points games but would like to use some aggressive units like Graveguard or Vargheists.

[brattenbergus]

48 minutes ago, Infernalslayer said:

What do you think of Gravelords in 1000 points games.

Trying to avoid 400+ points characters like Vamp Lords on Dragons that could be considered overwhelming in low points games but would like to use some aggressive units like Graveguard or Vargheists.

Something like this maybe?

Or one unit of 20 GG. Maybe split the BK aswell. 

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty

 

Leaders

Vampire Lord (140)

Necromancer (125)

 

Battleline

10 x Blood Knights (390)

20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170)

20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170)

 

Total: 995 / 1000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 200

Wounds: 80

 

[brattenbergus]

51 minutes ago, Infernalslayer said:

What do you think of Gravelords in 1000 points games.

Trying to avoid 400+ points characters like Vamp Lords on Dragons that could be considered overwhelming in low points games but would like to use some aggressive units like Graveguard or Vargheists.

Or just go big:

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Avengorii Dynasty

Leaders
Vengorian Lord (280)

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
Terrorgheist (305)
Zombie Dragon (295)

Total: 995 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 58
 

[swarmofseals]

On 5/31/2021 at 11:48 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

 

I think you missed this edit.

Absolutely correct, thanks for pointing that out!

On 5/31/2021 at 11:49 PM, Jaxler said:

The problem with zombies is quite simple. Their dmg output is trash...

...Next, their bodies is true, but doggos both have better movement, and are better at screening.

Next, to get them to be a viable threat, you need a necromancer and a foot vamp lord...

Then I suppose you could use them for camping objectives, which they can do, and is the only role they are good at, but in this regard you're left having to pick them or wolves. Wolves offer much more utility for less. Anything that isn't helping them get mortal wounds just doesn't seem that amazing. I feel like getting a few more 0 ap attacks at 1 inch seems bleh. I'd rather have manny and beast boy looking after blood knights or in a monster mash. 

80 zombies seems like it'd last a while, but in practicality 400 points of actual dedicated hammers will erase those 80 zombies pretty fast...

Also, I did edit in it's only been 8 games so far, but I've been talking with some other competitive players and more or less there was some consensus. With how things are right now, I don't think anyone's gonna have 50+ sample size or something, so again, don't take what I say as word of god. Still, I wouldn't say zombies are bad, it just seems they're not something you lean on. A single unit of 20 isn't going to be a bad thing. It's cheaper than dire wolves, and not skeletons. 

First and foremost I generally agree with you -- I'm not trying to suggest that zombies are going to be the main force of your army. Although I do wonder a bit if a true mass horde of zombies could be good. Something like 240-300 models. I don't think anyone is actually going to play that build though, so not much sense in really contemplating it seriously!

I do want to contend a few of your specific arguments though.

A unit of 20 zombies covers 965.5mm of linear space on the table. 10 dire wolves covers 828.6mm of linear space.

Completely unbuffed, zombies have a weighted offensive efficiency (I'll explain this more thoroughly in a future post, but it's basically a measure of damage efficiency that takes into account the value of rend/mortal damage across an expected frequency of each armor value) of .072, while Dire Wolves have a weighted offensive efficiency of .039 when not charging and .069 when charging.

Zombies have a weighted survivability efficiency (effective wounds per point assuming an average incoming rend of .75) of .174 without deathless minions and .209 with deathless minions. Dire Wolves clock in at .189 and .227.

The other main difference is that Zombies scale a lot better with extra attacks. Dire Wolves are basically never going to get particularly good at damage efficiency, whereas Zombies with +1 attack have a very high offensive efficiency.

I think that you are right that Dire Wolves are flexible and do their job quite well. Their speed is a big factor for sure. Zombies are a little bit better in terms of taking up space, however, and are definitely better on offense while being note quite as good on defense (but still pretty good).

I think the trap with zombies is something you already noted: spending a bunch of points on dedicated support. You said that you need a Vampire Lord on foot and a Necromancer to make them good, and I strongly disagree with that notion. I would never suggest taking a Vampire Lord on foot just to support something like zombies. It's a big points sink and you're not getting much out of it. It's far better to sometimes let your zombies get buffed by Radukar or Mannfred without wasting any resources. Both of those buffs are auras, and Radukar's is quite large. You can also do a nice trick with Zombies that can make Mannfred work a lot better. Most "units get +1 attack if this model slays something in combat" buffs kinda suck because the enemy is going to get a chance to attack the buff target first. In this case that isn't necessarily true, as Zombies can get activated even while outside the pile-in range of most enemies. So you dive in, hit with Mannfred, the enemy is forced to activate and then you get in with your Zombies.

It might be worth taking a Necromancer in some builds regardless as the Lore of Deathmages is fantastic.

TL;DR - I think zombies are a little better for taking up space and camping objectives, and they have the upside of becoming an actual threat when buffed by stuff that you are already taking, but I agree that it's a mistake to spend a bunch of point on stuff that is only there to buff the zombies.

On 6/1/2021 at 4:22 AM, Jaxler said:

The corpse cart just ate arrows, or magic. 6 wounds on a 6+ is a bit squishy. The local skaven player's snipers and shooty r-ogres enjoyed mulching it. Lumineth just tear most the synergies in the book to death if they take one or two units of shooty boys.  We also don't have a skylords player, but I can only imagine how that'd go. 

 

I wasn't using it vs the tree people player, but his everqueen probably just zaps a cart a turn at range. 

I'd rather them be shooting at a Corpse Cart than Mannfred/Radukar/VLoZD! Old Alarielle only does ~1.5-2 wounds per turn at range against a CC, for what it's worth. Not sure about the new version. On average it'll take around 20 Vanari Auralan Sentinels with Power of Hysh or 30 sentinels with no Power of Hish (lofted shots) to kill a Corpse Cart. If you assume that the enemy is going to get four volleys off per unit (which is pretty generous, tbh) then your Coprse Cart is basically absorbing 70-105 points worth of fire at an 80 point cost to you. Not a bad trade.

[Honk]

Just got my stuff for just a small little kidney... now I need to get building for my family&friends list

Varkyros Dynasty 

coven throne (general, pack alpha)

belladamma, radukar, Annika, kritz and a necromancer (named all count as general)

3x10 dire wolves 10 bloodknights 

an extra command point

fast and funky (maybe throwing out Annika and kritza for 5 extra bloodknights)

[Tizianolol]

Guys mannfred can use his CA +1 to hit and wounds on himself? 

[Scythian]

I talked to my local GW guy today. Blood Knights are going to be out for at least a month. Little resupplies might pop in here and there but they’ll be gone in a matter of minutes; much like Belakor. GW was absolutely hammered by the release of Soulblight! Most of the stuff has been sold out since day one. With Dominion right around the corner, resupply will be of the lowest priority until probably July. If you want something new this summer, preorder it or be prepared to wait. Imagine the wait for those poor Coven Throne buyers. 

[Honk]

7 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys mannfred can use his CA +1 to hit and wounds on himself? 

He is within his own aura, so yes, he profits from it...

3 hours ago, Scythian said:

GW was absolutely hammered by the release of Soulblight!

the scarcity tactic is a bit questionable. The Soulblight hype was real, the rumor threat got similar post numbers than the old FEC/LoBlood threats. Plastic bloodknights were on the wish list for Ages...

not a fan of the preorder all or get lost approach 

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Honk said:

not a fan of the preorder all or get lost approach 

Too much FOMO as of late, it really puts me off.

[RuneBrush]

5 hours ago, Scythian said:

Imagine the wait for those poor Coven Throne buyers. 

Thanks for the info.  We're going to see the Coven throne on the Mortal Realms magazine at some point, so worth keeping an eye out for that as a potential alternative supply

[El Syf]

Everything appears back in stock on the website now. I'm just hoping our book is as 3.0 ready as they said it would be and history does not prevail with it being not next edition in mind whatsoever.

[warhammernerd]

Hi I’m Adam and I’m a listaholic.

SOULBLIGHT BUILDS

——

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty

Wight King on Skeletal Steed (130)

- General

- Command Trait: Driven by Deathstench 

- Artefact: Standard of the Ulfenwatch 

Gorslav the Gravekeeper (0)

Torgillius the Chamberlain (0)

- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Watch Captain Halgrim (0)

Radukar the Wolf (755)

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

20 x Grave Guard (280)

- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields

20 x Grave Guard (280)

- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields

30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

1 x Vargskyr (0)

3 x Vyrkos Blood-born (0)

2 x Kosargi Nightguard (0)

Quicksilver Swords (30)

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 170

 

——-

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty

Gorslav the Gravekeeper (0)

Torgillius the Chamberlain (0)

Watch Captain Halgrim (0)

Radukar the Wolf (755)

Vampire Lord (140)

- General

- Command Trait: Rousing Commander 

- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard 

5 x Blood Knights (195)

5 x Blood Knights (195)

5 x Blood Knights (195)

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

1 x Vargskyr (0)

3 x Vyrkos Blood-born (0)

2 x Kosargi Nightguard (0)

Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (30)

 

Total: 1995 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 173

 

——

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Legion of Night

Vengorian Lord (280)

- General

- Command Trait: Unholy Impetus 

Necromancer (125)

- Artefact: Morbheg's Claw 

- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)

6 x Vargheists (310)

6 x Vargheists (310)

30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

Mortis Engine (200)

Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Extra Command Point (50)

 

Total: 1990 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 117

 

——

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty

Necromancer (125)

- General

- Command Trait: Kin of the Wolf 

- Artefact: Standard of the Ulfenwatch 

- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

Gorslav the Gravekeeper (0)

Torgillius the Chamberlain (0)

- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

Watch Captain Halgrim (0)

Radukar the Wolf (755)

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80)

1 x Vargskyr (0)

3 x Vyrkos Blood-born (0)

2 x Kosargi Nightguard (0)

Deathstench Drove (100)

 

Total: 1990 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 193

 

——-

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty

Prince Duvalle (200)

- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb

Necromancer (125)

- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)

- General

- Deathlance

- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare 

- Artefact: Sangsyron 

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

5 x Blood Knights (195)

5 x Blood Knights (195)

1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone (80)

1 x Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier (80)

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 186

 

——

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty

Vengorian Lord (280)

- General

- Command Trait: Rousing Commander 

- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard 

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (365)

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

Prince Vhordrai (455)

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

5 x Blood Knights (195)

5 x Blood Knights (195)

5 x Blood Knights (195)

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

Soulsnare Shackles (40)

 

Total: 1995 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 121

 

——

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Legion of Blood

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)

- General

- Deathlance

- Command Trait: Sanguine Blur 

- Artefact: Soulbound Garments 

- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference

Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (365)

- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference

Necromancer (125)

- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

5 x Black Knights (120)

5 x Black Knights (120)

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

1 x Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone (80)

10 x Blood Knights (390)

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 147

 

——

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords

- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty

Gorslav the Gravekeeper (0)

Torgillius the Chamberlain (0)

- Artefact: Standard of the Ulfenwatch 

- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

Watch Captain Halgrim (0)

Radukar the Wolf (755)

- General

Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)

- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)

10 x Dire Wolves (135)

1 x Vargskyr (0)

3 x Vyrkos Blood-born (0)

2 x Kosargi Nightguard (0)

10 x Blood Knights (390)

Quicksilver Swords (30)

 

Total: 1995 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 182

 

 

[Raptor_Jesues]

so YEAH. There is a lot do digest from the las WC article. I have no idea what my list will look like now

[El Syf]

Nagash is looking better all the time.

[Raptor_Jesues]

some hot takes regarding us from what we got:
-coven throne is amazing now
-vrykos is even stronger as expected but also is everyone taking named characters in their dynasty for several reasons
-avengorii is pretty damn fun
-we have basically guaranteed D3 wounds regen in the hero phase unless we want more CP or we need to smash some faces
-all our big heroes are going to like smashing stuff
-grave sites are not terrains so we are good there

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

grave sites are not terrains so we are good there

Thanks first edition jank! Finally it's working out in our favour 😎

[LoonKing98]

Working on a fluffy Vrykos list and just wanted some opinions. How many wolves is too many wolves? I want to start out in the 1250-1500 points range, for reference. Also have people found zombies or skeletons better objective campers? 

[Raptor_Jesues]

13 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Thanks first edition jank! Finally it's working out in our favour 😎

precisely. I am particulary horny about the coven throne. Thanks to regen (and hopefully new mystic shield) he will have some good survivability and the multi command points are going to be huge on it. Alas the palanquin still sucks some very bloody balls and i am at a loss for words on why they keep making it being so damn bad 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues

[AHexInScarletRed]

19 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

precisely. I am particulary horny about the coven throne. Thanks to regen (and hopefully new mystic shield) he will have some good survivability and the multi command points are going to be huge on it. Alas the palanquin still sucks some very bloody balls and i am at a loss for words on why they keep making it being so damn bad 

The multiple command points - do we now get 1 for every general we have on the field every round? The wording in the article irritates me. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, LoonKing98 said:

Working on a fluffy Vrykos list and just wanted some opinions. How many wolves is too many wolves? I want to start out in the 1250-1500 points range, for reference. Also have people found zombies or skeletons better objective campers? 

I'd go with min-size units for wolves. They are really good as mobile screens/tar pits, but not good in combat (even with buffs) or at holding objectives. Maybe start with one or two units of 10 and work up from there.

14 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

precisely. I am particulary horny about the coven throne. Thanks to regen (and hopefully new mystic shield) he will have some good survivability and the multi command points are going to be huge on it. Alas the palanquin still sucks some very bloody balls and i am at a loss for words on why they keep making it being so damn bad 

At least it's looking like Gravelords stock is going up in AoS 3. For now, we are one of the few armies that can easily get multiple generals. Interestingly, I think even the BR: Kragnos guys like Alarielle, Kragnos and Kroak did not yet get this treatment, so we will have to see if multiple gennies become the norm in the next edition or not.

I would say the average Gravelords list skews hero-heavy and has at least one big monster, so overall these changes seem like nice upgrades (even though they affect every army).

[Raptor_Jesues]

6 minutes ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

The multiple command points - do we now get 1 for every general we have on the field every round? The wording in the article irritates me. 

unclear but i would say yes

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 minutes ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

The multiple command points - do we now get 1 for every general we have on the field every round? The wording in the article irritates me. 

I read it as "get an extra command point as long as any general is on the battlefield". So one at most. But if it turns out to be one per general... Oh boy.

[Scruf]

9 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I read it as "get an extra command point as long as any general is on the battlefield". So one at most. But if it turns out to be one per general... Oh boy.

I'm guessing this'll be the case, but remember that you can't trust ANYTHING  you read on WarCom that isn't in a rules screenshot. They've been wrong about things before (looking at you Metawatch article with 3 2010 point lists).

Edited June 3, 2021 by Scruf

[Raptor_Jesues]

1 minute ago, Scruf said:

I'm guessing this'll be the case, but remember that you can't trust ANYTHING  you read on WarCom that isn't in a rules screenshot. They've been wrong about things before (looking at you Metawatch article with 3 2010 point lists).

even rules screenshots are wrong sometimes

[AHexInScarletRed]

23 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I read it as "get an extra command point as long as any general is on the battlefield". So one at most. But if it turns out to be one per general... Oh boy.

As long as I get 2 CPs per round, I'm good. Either 1 per General (without 1 anyway) or 1 anyway + 1 if any general both give at least double the amount of before.

Edited June 3, 2021 by AHexInScarletRed