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AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion


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Looks like the WIght King's Command ability is no longer redundant with all out defense. The Orruk Warclans article up today showed the new All out Attack and All out Defense command abilities.  All Out Defense adds 1 to a units save, and no longer rerolls saves of 1. Also commands are issued in the Hero phase know, which explains the Hero Phase language on the wight king datasheet. 

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So I see a little evidence here and there as to why our healing was nerfed in certain ways.  If commanders can use a CA to heal their unit, or heroes heal nearby units, that increases the resilience of maimed Skeleton and Zombie units.  Especially if your taking large units like usual.  Add in the current coherency rules (that don't punish our skeletons and zombies on 25mm bases), and our Zombie and Skeleton units look like they will be wanting to fight long, grind, attrition fight sessions with models on 32mm bases that WILL be punished by the new coherency rules.

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AoSFF Orruks Jun8 Boxout2

AoSFF Orruks Jun8 Boxout3

AoSFF Orruks Jun8 Boxout5

More regeneration and bonuses to saves and hits: Stonks!

Not having access to shooting or anti-shooting tech: Not stonks ;(

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I think Gravelords might benefit more than other armies from +1 to saves/hits. We have a lot of stuff that sits on 3+/3+ and can now easily get to 2+/2+. The regeneration ability is also better on large hordes, which we obviously have in spades. Although you need to lose 18 guys to heal three wounds on average, it might not be so bad when stacked with Deathly Invocation and Invigorating Aura. An average of 8 or so models, close to old LoN levels.

Plus, that wight king ability might become functional (if it becomes combat phase instead of hero phase). Being able to get to 2+ rerolling to hit might make them an OK buff hero for Grave Guard.

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Just now, Nightseer2012 said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/01UIHTkmjtvjQPcv.jpg

So I see a little evidence here and there as to why our healing was nerfed in certain ways.  If commanders can use a CA to heal their unit, or heroes heal nearby units, that increases the resilience of maimed Skeleton and Zombie units.  Especially if your taking large units like usual.  Add in the current coherency rules (that don't punish our skeletons and zombies on 25mm bases), and our Zombie and Skeleton units look like they will be wanting to fight long, grind, attrition fight sessions with models on 32mm bases that WILL be punished by the new coherency rules.

Zombie and Skeletons stocks are definitely going up!

Sadly, new coherence also means Direwolves are getting worse.

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1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Zombie and Skeletons stocks are definitely going up!

Sadly, new coherence also means Direwolves are getting worse.

Was thinking the same thing.  Saw the "egg" formation posts in the other forum for 6+ cav units, and it made me seriously consider paying the points tax and just taking Black Knights as "fire & forget" charging d3 MW torpedoes again.  With Wolves being "decent" on a charge, it seems a shame to limit what they can do even more. 

The coherency will definitely help our line troops fight more advantageous battles against enemies on larger bases who wont be able to attack back as effectively, making fights last longer and giving us more chances to recoup our losses.  And the limitation on Inspiring Presence (Only 1 use per battleshock) means that if we can press multiple units, our Bravery Bombs lists might make a comeback in AoS 3.  Heck, Legion of Blood Bravery Bombs might be worth a good look.

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2 minutes ago, Nightseer2012 said:

Was thinking the same thing.  Saw the "egg" formation posts in the other forum for 6+ cav units, and it made me seriously consider paying the points tax and just taking Black Knights as "fire & forget" charging d3 MW torpedoes again.  With Wolves being "decent" on a charge, it seems a shame to limit what they can do even more. 

The coherency will definitely help our line troops fight more advantageous battles against enemies on larger bases who wont be able to attack back as effectively, making fights last longer and giving us more chances to recoup our losses.  And the limitation on Inspiring Presence (Only 1 use per battleshock) means that if we can press multiple units, our Bravery Bombs lists might make a comeback in AoS 3.  Heck, Legion of Blood Bravery Bombs might be worth a good look.

For Wolves, I would probably take the loss and just deploy them in a snakey line. It will be a significantly shorter screen, but I suppose it will be harder to chew through relative to the distance it covers. Still, Direwolves already got worse for their role (fast, cheap screen) through the miniumum unit size increase they got. Now they are kinda questionable: Twice as expensive as before, but cover nearly the same horizontal space. At least their effectivity will not be strongly diminished if they return at half size from Endless Legions.

As for battleshock, we will have to see. Even before the limitation of one Inspiring Presence per phase, people rarely spent more than one point at once on it, because there were just fewer command points to go around. To make full use of bravery, I think a gravelords army would have to commit to as swarm build, where we can engage multiple units at once from different angles. Luckily, the new gravesite rules and better Blood Knights make this feasibe. Might be worth thinking about.

 

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8 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

As for battleshock, we will have to see. Even before the limitation of one Inspiring Presence per phase, people rarely spent more than one point at once on it, because there were just fewer command points to go around. To make full use of bravery, I think a gravelords army would have to commit to as swarm build, where we can engage multiple units at once from different angles. Luckily, the new gravesite rules and better Blood Knights make this feasibe. Might be worth thinking about.

 

True.  The foundations are there in theory.  I will probably test a Bravery list when 3.0 drops.  -1 or 2 Bravery from Reanimated Horrors, -1 Soul Crushing Contempt on a hero... throw in a Soulscream Bridge or Horrorghast and you have even the highest Bravery down to 5 or 6, and then they lose an additional D3 fleeing models off of Legion of Blood's Immortal Majesty.

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I'm a bit concerned about the "Unleash Hell" ability. The unit doesn't even need to be charged to fire. Just within 9" of the enemy unit that completes the charge (not even wholly within 9"). You could technically have Bow Snakes shooting 3 times in a single turn. Hopefully ranged units, especially those that deal Mortal Wounds get a price hike in GHB 2021.

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42 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I'm a bit concerned about the "Unleash Hell" ability. The unit doesn't even need to be charged to fire. Just within 9" of the enemy unit that completes the charge (not even wholly within 9"). You could technically have Bow Snakes shooting 3 times in a single turn. Hopefully ranged units, especially those that deal Mortal Wounds get a price hike in GHB 2021.

and a big one too

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44 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I'm a bit concerned about the "Unleash Hell" ability. The unit doesn't even need to be charged to fire. Just within 9" of the enemy unit that completes the charge (not even wholly within 9"). You could technically have Bow Snakes shooting 3 times in a single turn. Hopefully ranged units, especially those that deal Mortal Wounds get a price hike in GHB 2021.

I'm honestly not sure how this could be balanced out with additional rules or even played around. I reserve judgment until we see the full rules, but this kind of overwatch shooting with a big block of guys seems very strong. Even if it's only once per charge phase for a command point.

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Posted (edited)

I feel as though we are best equipped to handle Unleash Hell¬†so far with the 6‚ÄĚ pile in to combat maneuver not being a charge. ¬†Outside that the chaff charge to potentially lock them in.

 I’m seeing large Stormfiends squads or multiple Raptor squad armies and Auralan Legions being so much harder to charge into, but with Rally I’m coming around to the 20 Dire wolf squad with Belladamma’s command ability to really bog down the table, that and 10 man skeleton squads to pull out of graves.

Edited by Andalf
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3 hours ago, Nightseer2012 said:

Was thinking the same thing.  Saw the "egg" formation posts in the other forum for 6+ cav units, and it made me seriously consider paying the points tax and just taking Black Knights as "fire & forget" charging d3 MW torpedoes again.  With Wolves being "decent" on a charge, it seems a shame to limit what they can do even more. 

The coherency will definitely help our line troops fight more advantageous battles against enemies on larger bases who wont be able to attack back as effectively, making fights last longer and giving us more chances to recoup our losses.  And the limitation on Inspiring Presence (Only 1 use per battleshock) means that if we can press multiple units, our Bravery Bombs lists might make a comeback in AoS 3.  Heck, Legion of Blood Bravery Bombs might be worth a good look.

It's not even really that bad for dire wolves, if you want to deploy them in a line you basically just do this. You lose the end dogs and make a triangle with the next 2 dogs, now all dogs are within 1" of 2 dogs. So yes it is a net lose of 2 bases worth of screen but it's still good and fast.doggos.png.a264c933d200fdc0697e7bba2e0f892b.png

 

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16 minutes ago, Belmail said:

It's not even really that bad for dire wolves, if you want to deploy them in a line you basically just do this. You lose the end dogs and make a triangle with the next 2 dogs, now all dogs are within 1" of 2 dogs. So yes it is a net lose of 2 bases worth of screen but it's still good and fast.doggos.png.a264c933d200fdc0697e7bba2e0f892b.png

 

If one wolf dies you lose coherency with that formation and lose all except three wolves.

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2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

If one wolf dies you lose coherency with that formation and lose all except three wolves.

Huh yeah I guess you're right, it's been a long time since i've had to do this in 40k. You would realistically need to move another dog or 2 from each side yeah

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Even before the limitation of one Inspiring Presence per phase

Are we sure that it's just once per phase? Warhammer Community is a bit vague about that:
 

Quote

On the flip side, you really need to think about Battleshock now, as only one unit can benefit from the Inspiring Presence command ability.

40k has a similar Stratagem Once per battle:

Oncepergame.jpg.11baa15b496e2c8312bbbed7b01dea66.jpg

It can go both ways, but wait for the whole book before buying more models, expecting some rules to buff your new toys. It can backfire!!

Edited by Beliman
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Are we sure that it's just once per phase? Warhammer Community is a bit vague about that:
 

40k has a similar Stratagem Once per battle:

Oncepergame.jpg.11baa15b496e2c8312bbbed7b01dea66.jpg

It can go both ways, but wait for the whole book before buying more models, expecting some rules to buff your new toys. It can backfire!!

I'd be into it if it was once per battle. If that happens, though, I hope the definition of "slain models" in regard to battleshock gets reworked so that Skeletons don't get blown up every combat.

Edited by Neil Arthur Hotep
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32 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Are we sure that it's just once per phase? Warhammer Community is a bit vague about that:
 

40k has a similar Stratagem Once per battle:

Oncepergame.jpg.11baa15b496e2c8312bbbed7b01dea66.jpg

It can go both ways, but wait for the whole book before buying more models, expecting some rules to buff your new toys. It can backfire!!

Yeah if all the stuff we saw today (Unleash Hell specifically) is once per game then things are not nearly as bad. Or if they cost more than one CP (although I don't see this as likely of a solution). 

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Posted (edited)

A little worried about these snippets of into we've seen. Predominantly the heal d3 heroic ability. This seems to be able to be done in each hero phase. So some heroes are going to be impossibly hard to kill.

Cast a spell on a hero and do d3 mortals? Oh well he can now heal those d3 mortals and then on his turn heal another d3 mortals. So an average of healing 4 wounds each battle round. Imagine that on something like kragnos etc. or even our own heroes like mannfred, average healing 4 wounds on top of d3 from killing and negating 1 wound each phase?

I feel like a lot of these commands/heroic actions should be once per battle. I guess we are yet to see a lot of rules, but some of them just seem silly.

Edited by Ghoooouls
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51 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

A little worried about these snippets of into we've seen. Predominantly the heal d3 heroic ability. This seems to be able to be done in each hero phase. So some heroes are going to be impossibly hard to kill.

Cast a spell on a hero and do d3 mortals? Oh well he can now heal those d3 mortals and then on his turn heal another d3 mortals. So an average of healing 4 wounds each battle round. Imagine that on something like kragnos etc. or even our own heroes like mannfred, average healing 4 wounds on top of d3 from killing and negating 1 wound each phase?

I feel like a lot of these commands/heroic actions should be once per battle. I guess we are yet to see a lot of rules, but some of them just seem silly.

I believe the heroic healing is done at the top of Hero phase where the rest of your hero stuff would be in the middle of it 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Lich King said:

I believe the heroic healing is done at the top of Hero phase where the rest of your hero stuff would be in the middle of it 

Yea I may be jumping the gun as we have only seen small amounts of info.

It just seems very immersion-breaking for me. I can now have zombies drag enemies down and tear them apart, then turn them into zombies. Then the opponents commander can shout at the dead guy that is now a zombie and he somehow spawns into a second body and gets back up to fight himself as a zombie... just seems silly.

Bloodthirsters of insenate rage smashing people into explosions of gore.... but wait the general is shouting at us lads! Quick rebuild your bodies, find your organs and fight as if nothing happened!

Vampires and ghouls feasting on dead bodies.... but wait no! Come on lads get back up! Fight!

Edited by Ghoooouls
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Posted (edited)

Mmmh I might be dumb but the Rally ability let you return one dead model on a 6...but at full wound ? And there is no restriction in the description (maybe there will be in the book like "Monsters can't receive command abilities", etc.) so, right now, you can bring back a dead Mancrusher, healed of all wounds, in a unit of 3 if you roll a 6. A gambit but a powerful one.

And even if Monsters can't benefit from it,  Blood Knights could be the target too...

Speaking of Blood Knights...with unit coherency and their 1" range, I think the best way to use them will be at minimum size unit. So 2√ó5 instead of 1√ó10...meaning more drops.

Edited by Harioch
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