New akelian leviadon is overpowered

[Doko]

Seeing as the 100% of undefeteadeds idoneths lists after morathi bring 1 and even 2 turtles i wanted see his warscroll and......it is a joke.

 

How is posible this model cost only 340?????? Those stats are from 500+ models:

a model that have a dps output of 19\22 wounds with 2 rends and mortals many of those,

have a save of 3

Have 10 move with fly

Aura of +1 save AND +1 hit to thralls

Free mount traits to put him inmune to rend1

 

Then as city of sigmar player i compare it to karl franz or black dragon, both have around 12\14 damage output(half of turtle), havent any aura as the turtle and cost only 20\40 points less?

 

So now idoneths not only have over the top the eels,now also the shark and turtle are at the same level of overpowereness and this with a aos1 tome

[Doko]

Oh and the sharks for 110 points have the same damage output than war hydras of 170 points......

[Doko]

Some samples of tournaments:

 

https://tabletop.to/secret-santa-tts-aos

 

https://tabletop.to/james-gallant-test-gg

 

https://tabletop.to/hammertime-6

[JackStreicher]

Calm down please. The Leviadon is fine as is the bastilladon.

[Sonnenspeer]

🥳

[Gorthor21]

Idoneth needed something powerful other than eels.  

[Marcvs]

43 minutes ago, Gorthor21 said:

Idoneth needed something powerful other than eels.  

agreed on diversity. problem is: now they have the turtle AND the eels (with +1 to save) and they were already doing very well

EDIT: just to be clear, I am happy for IDK players and love to see more turtles around. I just find it unfortunate that the factions which received the most from broken realms:morathi were those already "strong" competitively speaking.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Marcvs

[Aelfric]

29 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

agreed on diversity. problem is: now they have the turtle AND the eels (with +1 to save) and they were already doing very well

EDIT: just to be clear, I am happy for IDK players and love to see more turtles around. I just find it unfortunate that the factions which received the most from broken realms:morathi were those already "strong" competitively speaking.

Perhaps Eels will go up in points in the winter FAQ - if we get one, that is.

[Austin]

Just wanted to drop in and say I would never have thought to see a thread like this.  What a time to love the emo Aeaeaeaelves.

[Scythian]

10 hours ago, Doko said:

Seeing as the 100% of undefeteadeds idoneths lists after morathi bring 1 and even 2 turtles i wanted see his warscroll and......it is a joke.

 

How is posible this model cost only 340?????? Those stats are from 500+ models:

a model that have a dps output of 19\22 wounds with 2 rends and mortals many of those,

have a save of 3

Have 10 move with fly

Aura of +1 save AND +1 hit to thralls

Free mount traits to put him inmune to rend1

 

Then as city of sigmar player i compare it to karl franz or black dragon, both have around 12\14 damage output(half of turtle), havent any aura as the turtle and cost only 20\40 points less?

 

So now idoneths not only have over the top the eels,now also the shark and turtle are at the same level of overpowereness and this with a aos1 tome

My mega gargant killed one with little to no problem. They’re not that tough to fight.

[Doko]

If a 500 points models have problems killing a buffer 300 points models then something is wrong with the game.

 

Btw one of the these undefeated guys is only spaming thralls who idk cry how useless are and umplayables together the underpriced turtle of course

[Mattrulesok]

Nah the leviadon is fine, it's priced correctly. its damage output when it charges is comparable to an ubuffed 5 man evocators unit (pictured) which is 130 points cheaper. Yes the leviadon has other benefits (+1 aura, High save) but it also has all the drawbacks of a behemoth and vital counts as only 1 model for objectives. On top of that I compared with evocators because on top of similar damage they have a spell/unbind and count as 4 more models and critically based on average damage a charging leviadon would not be able to claim an objective from evocators however charging evos would almost always take an objective from a leviadon. 

What does this all mean? Not much other than comparing individual warscrolls is pointless and the leviadon is so strong because the IDK book is broken but I'd hardly call the Leviadon the problem, if anything it's more indication that GW are finally getting monsters right. 

 

And as for the comparison to the black dragon, the black dragon is a terrible warscroll and indicative of the issues with older monster warscrolls being underpowered and again comparing warscrolls never works. 

 

Hell if you want to compare warscrolls did you know castigators are better than skinks? They average almost double the damage at minimum sizes. 

[Drazhoath]

Why not Nagash in OBR is op, Flamers in Eternal Conflag are op, Mawcrusher is op,.... Thats GW and GW never made balanced rules. Useless discussion, mate.

[Gorthor21]

In all honesty the rules and lore are second thoughts after they design the models and the whole point of their enterprise is to make profit off the miniatures.  Hence newer kits are more powerful and expensive armies like the daughters of khaine are so potent.  It’s nothing to bemoan it’s just the nature of the beast.  Enjoy it for what it is and hope you don’t come across an army of Akhelians in your own games 

[Siegfried VII]

The Leviadon is fine! Most of the other monsters are sub-par.. 

GW for the first time seems to get better at creating monster warscrolls. These big monsters NEED to hit like a ton of bricks imo and I hope all the other armies get powerful monsters so we can see them more in competitive play.. 🙂 

[Doko]

EvERY unit is allways better than a single model so your point is useless.

 

I agree that monsters in general need huge buffs,but the point here is how overpower vs other monster is the turtle.

Also even vs units he is overpower,because he does almost the same damage per points and moreover bring the +1 save that cost 140 points(seraphon banner or fyreslayers battlesmith).

 

If you remove these 140 points of the aura we have a 20 damage output monsters that cost only 200 points......not even the best unit of the game bring that damage per points.

[Doko]

17 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

The Leviadon is fine! Most of the other monsters are sub-par.. 

Sorry but that is 100% the same sentence that every player playing a overpower class in a mmorpg gives moments before of getting nerfed.

 

I agree that every other monster need buffs, and i would prefer that,but as the time have showed us every company only need nerf the single class\unit that is overpower in place of many buffs to others to bring them to his place

[Siegfried VII]

7 minutes ago, Doko said:

Sorry but that is 100% the same sentence that every player playing a overpower class in a mmorpg gives moments before of getting nerfed.

 

I agree that every other monster need buffs, and i would prefer that,but as the time have showed us every company only need nerf the single class\unit that is overpower in place of many buffs to others to bring them to his place

I wrote the reasons Leviadon is fine. You are free to disagree of course.

The point is to fix all monsters and not keep making sub par warscrolls for them. As I said the monsters of all armies should be good not just Leviadon, so you implying that I am a powerplayer only caring for myself winning is not a valid point..

Nerfing the Leviadon makes all monsters bad which I believe is not what we want if we want to see diverse armies on the tables.. 🙂 

[Mattrulesok]

45 minutes ago, Doko said:

EvERY unit is allways better than a single model so your point is useless.

 

Not at all, it's an inherit weakness of large monsters that in a game about capturing objectives they aren't very good at capturing objectives so the only reason to play them is if they provide some other use ie as a bully unit or buff piece. 

 

45 minutes ago, Doko said:

I agree that monsters in general need huge buffs,but the point here is how overpower vs other monster is the turtle.

So buff the other monsters than, don't nerf one of the only ones worth their points

 

45 minutes ago, Doko said:

Also even vs units he is overpower,because he does almost the same damage per points and moreover bring the +1 save that cost 140 points(seraphon banner or fyreslayers battlesmith).

But he doesn't, he does 42% less damage than 320 points of unbuffed free guild greats words, 32% less than 280points of unbuffed hammerers and 30% less damage than 260 points of unbuffed dreadscythe harridans and no one even uses them because they're a sub par combat unit in a sub par combat army (sorry NH fans I hope your new book arrives soon). You can feel free to go compare it to a bunch of other infantry units in the game and you will find almost all will beat the leviadon on average damage. Hell I purposely didn't pick the best combat units. Go matchbit up to DoK or Ironjawz. 

 

45 minutes ago, Doko said:

If you remove these 140 points of the aura we have a 20 damage output monsters that cost only 200 points......not even the best unit of the game bring that damage per points

I'm not sure how you decided to just remove 140 points from a unit then call it under costed, the aura is not worth 140  (the battlesmith is more than just his aura and I've no idea which seraphon character you're referring to) 

 

 

But like I said the problem isn't the leviadon it's the book, a +1 save aura is nice but not game breaking, however it being in an army with a unit that can ignore rend, is automatically in cover the first turn and if closest has to be shot at allowing the rest of the army to move forward safely to attack first for the entirety of battle round 3 where their other elite cavellry receive a bonus for charging and can gain a ton of extra attacks from the command ability from an already good hero who also now can make all units near him - 1 to hit. But yeh the turtle is the problem. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Mattrulesok

[Nasrod]

Leviadon absolutely needs to be +20 points. But he can get in line behind Kroak, Wardens, and all THIS *gestures wildly at Tzeentch and Kharadaron Overlords*. Heck, Chaos Marauders are imo the most busted unit in the game atm but who cares when literally every meta list is packing firepower to table opponents on turn 3 and redolyment/kiting tricks to ensure the Marauders aren't ever contacting anything important?

But enough of that, Idoneth is the subject.

Sharks aren't a problem, anti pile-in support on an offensively smashy and points effecient unit is. It would make a lot of players mad and too late to do, but they should allow 1 Net for every 2 Harpoons you take. Meaning it is a decent alternative to a killy unit like Eels with minor ranged support but going big on the cost gives you the chance to have the utility, but only unlocking it with a similar investment's worth of a Morsarr unit.  I would feel better if 2 nets meant the opponent was investing 660 points into statistically preventing a pile in a turn. 

Simpler alternative I suppose is to give the net innate -1 to hit but I worry the only change it would cause is the IDK player begs to his dice, "PLEASE HIT!' with a bit more gumption than before. 

And for god's sake GW stop making centerpiece casters that don't get innate +1 to cast, melee Eido is finally fun to use. Meanwhile caster Eido is crying and sharing sob stories with Olynder, who's warning him, "You'll be made so cheap people will just take you for your raw stats despite knowing you can never get your magic up enough to cast under pressure."

I play Tyranids for crying out loud and I have more fun with my weak bugs than I do playing DoK or Slaanesh atm. Sigmar desperately needed the winter FAQ.

COVID happened, I get it. But I am saltier than my beloved fish elves over the fact that points nerfs came hard and fast to DoK and Slaanesh in the same year as their showing, but this miserable shooting meta is going to be with us until July at this rate. 

And the 4th army I play? Bonereapers. "Let's make PE still miserable to play against for aggro based armies, but take away your durability against Shooting."

The 5th army I played? Nighthaunt Chainhorde battalion witg Guardian of Souls with Hourglass. Got the list built, placed the order for the model just months before it was removed from GHB for no reason. Wasn't even a strong list, but it was ripped out of my hands.

So TL;DR is if you hate the turtle, don't worry. I'm opening it up for Christmas tomorrow and fully expect to see the Winter FAQ come up the day after saying "Replace the Akhelian Leviadon's warscroll with the Mournghoul's. Eat our shorts. You will never, ever have fun playing Age of Sigmar, and everything you decide to paint we will nerf."

I'm doing fine, thanks. Happy holidays folks!

[Doko]

Easy fix:

Turtle:450 points and the +1 save dont stack with cover

Tank eels: the same fix that EVERY other ethereal unit got,ignore negativ modifier AND positive modifiers so they cant save better than 4

Sharks:140 points

 

Im am a nobody and only my tougths to do  the actual idoneths that are the top army together seraphon and kharadrons more balanced. Of course kharadrons and seraphons need fix also and dont only idoneths(kroak 450+ for example)

 

[Kitsumy]

Well tourneys of 3 rounds are joke. So noone cares about non 5 round tourneys since they are reliying on luck only.

 

Eels arent op, and im tired of hear kiddos cry for that. Idk were forced  to spam them only since every other unit on tome was useless. And even then they were 7-10 on last tourneys data, even before lumineths release, we would be even worse after that.

 

And turtle isnt any op, 17 dmg ( melee and ranged, so in real will be less) and 19-20 on the charge and shoting isnt so great. Durthu does more with more rend for less points, or avalenor... Does around 21dmg with more rend, aura in -1 to wound( better than +1 save, since it will inpact in higher number of dices than armor) and the aura has more than double range. For same points, and noone uses him, and of course u dont see any hater conpaining about him. 

 

Turtle for 340 is broken but heartguards doing more dmg for those points and way more wounds with ridiculous armor plus feel no pain , fighting first even on ur charge and atacking 2 times are fine? Haha

[whispersofblood]

This thread... is painful

[Gorthor21]

8 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

This thread... is painful

I guess the keeper of secrets is gonna pop his head in now

[Doko]

13 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Turtle for 340 is broken but heartguards doing more dmg for those points and way more wounds with ridiculous armor plus feel no pain , fighting first even on ur charge and atacking 2 times are fine? Haha

Turtle 340 points: 19/21 damage output

Hearthguard 360 points for 15 models: 24 damage output if you can get them all to range to attack.. 

 

Also save of 5 and especial of 6 is worse than save 2 of turtle and if you add a hero near then it is extra 100+ points only to save to 5\4 that is worse than save 2.

 

Now if we add every skill as you did then we have tank eels tanking with save 2 invulnerables,you only can shooting to this unit,then at turn 3  dps eels charge with +3 attack each rerolling 1 to hit and doing mortals wounds deleting every similar cost unit of the game and attacking first.

 

Fyreslayers have severals counterplays as move 4, need useless tax heros to can active batallions or the hearthguard that when you kill them does useless all the fyreslayer army.

But new idomeths havent any counterplay,that isn the problem. Imposible kill tank eels with save2 invulnerable and you cant shoot anithing due to the idometh pasive,you cant outplay them due to that idk have tye fastest unit of the game and fly, you cant screen key units o hero do this same reason.

Then at turn 3 they only delete all you army with +3 attack every eel and attacking first.

 

Very fun to play vs this 0 counterplay army. Same reason that bonereapers were balanced.