Nasrod

I think part of the reason this book has a lot of negativity is that complaints from the previous book weren't acknowledged. Look at how improved Hedonites is while maintaining the idea of the warscrolls; even if it ends up being a weak book, the models do what they feel like they should do. Skeletons, Zombies, and Dire Wolves all now play radically different roles. And the idea that Zombies having a 6" pile in was too strong becomes really frustrating when it's stapled on to another unit in the book. Vyrkos Dynasty is nothing at all what it used to be; so many things were given completely new identities, for seemingly no reason, while the Vampire Heroes were ignored. Change is cool, but this amount of change for what is a technical horde army is going to frustrate many players and hobbiests alike.

How is no one talking about Torgilius? He casts, he has an 18" range missile attack, and for no command points extends a 5+ ward to summonables. Sure, wholly within 12 is tough, but 135 points for this guy is ludicrous.

I return to these forums after a long hiatus. The board's rules about negativity while posting made it so that I would legitimately be banned if I had stayed. You can call that petulant childishness, but the disappointment and frustration I felt from our last book was unreal. The new book has my brain burning. I was sick all week so no chances to play, but I plan on attempting a game this Thursday. ---- Pretenders - Battle Regiment (2 drops) The Masque - 140 Glutos - 480 [General, Phantasmagoria] Shardspeaker - 125 [Tome, Born of Damnation] Daemonettes x 20 - 250 [Reinforced x 1] Blissbarb Archers x 11 - 150 Blissbarb Archers x 11 - 150 Myrmidesh Painbringers x 10 - 290 [Reinforced x 1] Slickblade Seekers x 5 - 200 Blissbarb Archers x 5 - 200 [Outside of Battle Regiment] ----- The plan here is the most obvious one in the book. Rush depravity using The Masque, Sharsapeaker with Tome and Born of Damnation; the reduction of attacks spell is really juicy here as we hit 12 depravity along with Gluttos, and making sure we get a spell for the ward+4 is great. And since our Shardspeaker isn't our General, the Claws unlocked on cast make it a great back up option for Euphoric+Gorge on Excess. Painbringers and Gluttos form your anvil, with Blissbarb Seekers and Archers harassing from behind. Phantasmagoria goes on enemies to give our Euphoric Killers selections of Slickblade Seekers or 20 Daemonettes the freedom to charge the closest thing trying to interfere with our center and fall back with no opportunity to get clapped back. The opponent then has to choose between allocating shooting or a charge to the stranded unit to put it down, or ignore it and try to break the Painbringers and Glutos. By turn 2, Glutos unlocks his advance and charge, allowing him to likely dig in against something if the 6 wound heal isn't going to save him. This list is sacrificing a lot of our risky but powerful gimmicks and as such, it almost certainly can be improved. But until I have some games under my belt, Glutos will be my Pretender general.

Few model releases, slow Battletome rollouts, slower changes made in response to dominant meta armies... the entire group moved to 40k in my community and even with me actively painting my Daughters of Khaine at the shop and getting compliments, there's just no interest anymore. I personally love a lot of what the Gallatian Veterans changes did for the game, too. Every game I convince people to play, it's much closer and they seem far more engaged than in the beginning of 3rd when people were jamming heroes with 5+ ward and Heroic Recovery into an endless tarpit.

Practice game tonight. Drycha Lady Durthu - Crown, Ethereal trait Dryads x 10 Revenants x 5 Bownothi x 3 Scythenothi x 3 Gossamids x 5 Not a fan of the Bownothi. Tried them because I love the way they look, but they accomplished nothing; thankfully opponent allowed me to build their torsos and leave arms+heads off to see what I think. Will be building another 3 Scythes for sure. Rest of the list is pretty fun. Not WAAC, but pretty spikey and unforgiving to opponent due to the Unleash Hell Mortal Wound threats.

I definitely like the look of Scythes more, but msu Greatswords with casters that can heal and revive seem better to pad out the battleline requirements and encourage the enemy to over commit. All the units in the book are really expensive, so the idea of running 6 Kurnoth reinforced is becoming less appealing to me when that is 25% of the army.

Ran a 2100 point game (I miscalced by glancing at a table and later finding out I was at 2070 points; opponent went to 2100 as well, was all good). List was Drycha, Lady, Ancient, Durthu, 10 Dryads, 3 Scythes, 5 Revenants, 5 Gossamid Archers. Vs 10 Judicators, Chariot, 10 Vindictors, Knight Jud, pack of Griff Hounds for chaffe, 3 Annihilators, the + to charge out of deep strike hero, Praetors, and 10 Sword Guys (Think there was something else, but forgetting it due to info overload) Long story short, the entire army castle up, survived the Annihilator deep strike + Jud shots turn one onto my Kurnoth Hunters by exactly 1 wound. Drycha unleashed hell into the Annihilators when they charged and then piled in to them to finish them off. Proceeded to heal the Kurnoth by 1, resolve the healing spell to return 3 wounds, then resolved the return a model spell to bring back hunter 2. The Gossamids flew up the right flank to mulch a flanking Chariot and Griff Hound pack along with Drycha, Durthu, and Ancient all plodding along. Lady of Vines cast her 5+ ward and advanced to keep up with the group. Turn 2 went to SCE, he made a desperate bid to kill the Kurnoth Hunters and another one died with 2 wounds allocated to the champion. Heal from terrain, heal spell for 1, res a 2nd Kurnoth. Lady failed her 5+ ward. Archers and Revs moved along the far right flank to begin harassing Vindictors on the home objective while I castled up on mid and opponent conceded. Was by no means a competitive list but the book feels absurdly good, in that all the warscrolls are usable. Enjoy your book tree bros, because it is fantastic imo.

Because they are now a 4+ base save. All out defense putting them to 3+ is pretty crazy, considering they can teleport onto any objective and be sticky as all get out to enemy ranged, and the opponent has to get through an unleash hell to charge them. I'm optimistic for them.

I strongly disagree with the Goonhammer breakdown. They seem to have completely missed the change to Blood Sisters' "Turned to Crystal," implying it still triggers at the end of the combat phase. That is the case for the heroes still, so maybe they assumed it was the same due to being the same ability name. Throwing weight behind Elves and dismissing the snakes with a single "Eh probably bad" comment in a world where they acknowledge Zainthar as a strong faction is also weird to me.

Vyperic Guard* (Extra enhancement) Morathi* Ironscale* (Crown of Woe; Prevents Inspiring Presence in a 9" bubble around her; if she slays any model the bubble grows to 15" permanently) Hag Queen (Khainite Pendant; 1/game guaranteed prayer, Trait: Zealous Orator, allows Rally commands from this General to succeed on 4+ instead of 6+, absolutely insane; prayer Sacrament of Blood, add 1 to the Blood Rites table, stacks with her sippy cup ability) Blood Stalkers x 15* Blood Sisters x 5* Blood Sisters x 5* Khinerai Heartrender x 5 Khinerai Heartrender x 5 Heart of Fury 1950/2000 I lied. Too excited to sleep, lol. Morathi + 15 Bow snakes is obnoxious but good for a reason. With the new Rally 4+ trait it is going to become far more obnoxious... The Hag Queen artifact guarantees your Heart of Fury goes out, or guarantees the Sacrament of Blood goes out. On turn 2 this means she is buffing something of her choice to be on Blood Rites 4, gaining the bonus to hit and wound. There is a tactic that involves having 2 Khinerai units make their bonus move in the same turn. 180 points to guarantee an on demand tactic score on turn 2 or 3 is fantastic. The fact they fly and move 14" afterwards to harass objectives is just straight bonus. The heroes have some absurd traits and artifacts that provide fantastic support to the army. The 5 man Blood Sister units can become 6 attacks each hitting on 2s wounding on 2s rending 2 damage 2 with the ability to advance and charge if the Melusai has killed a model; if you roll a 6 on Heart of Fury, which is admittedly magical Christmas land, they become 7 attacks. If you took the Ironscale exclusive artifact, once per game it can be popped for another attack bonus to become 8 attacks each. And after they fight, you average 5 mortal wounds if the target is still alive thanks to Turn to Crystal. This isn't practical by any means, but the sheer fact you can threaten this with a 140 point unit that moves 8 and advances and charges...then fights again even if something survives and fights back? This is going to be a ton of fun. EDIT Shadowstalkers are a base 4+ save now and battleline in Khailebron. Cauldron making these a 3+armor save/6+ ward that teleports in place of movement? No way this won't make waves.

Stormcast are allies again. The lore has an explanation which I will not spoil. Heart of Fury is now roll a D6; 1 through 5, you minus 1 for incoming damage wholly within 12. On a 6, it also adds an extra attack to your units and fades away at end of turn. The Vyper Endless spell has a cool gimmick that lets it Stomp or Destroy Terrain, as does the Avatar of Khaine, but they are explicitly not monsters for the purpose of categorization. That is all from me as I have to sleep; by and large the book is very very similar to the old book. But the new stuff we got is silly.

They don't, I imagine; Crystal Touch says when the unit makes its first attack. The Zainthar Kai ability is "Slain models may fight when they are removed." Since Crystal touch specifies "when the unit fights", I would say that is not eligible to be the same as "slain models." That said, Touch triggering at end of attacks again instead of at the end of the combat phase is huge.

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but while most Temples are the same, Zainthar Kai says "Each time a model in a friendly Zainthar Kai Melusai unit is slain, that model can fight before it is removed from play." This being an always on static effect that does not have the stipulation of "Choose a unit that has not already fought" seems absolutely mental to me. Turned to Crystal also got a huge glow up: "After this unit has fought for the first time in a phase and all its attacks have been resolved, you can pick 1 enemy unit within 3" of this unit. Roll 1 dice for each model in this unit. For each 2+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound." At 140 points and battle line in Zainthar... I have no complaints from this book. It took 4 years but we can finally run Morathi as General with Battleline Melusai!

...huh? Sororitas Bloody Rose, Daemon Monster Mash (Keepers), Eradicator Marine Spam, Necron Silver Tide, and Harlequins were the early boogie men of 9E. In no way were Orks bad but I don't recall them being labeled trash only to present some dominant force on the scene. Goonhammer does have problems but I don't recall this being the case at all. Certainly not for years. Played a casual game at 1k against a newer player. List was Synessa + Syll'esske Blissbarb Archers + Hellstriders Blissbarb Seekers vs Eidolon + Akhelian King 3 Morsarr + 10 Thralls Allopex Went 2nd. Positioned carefully so that he would need massive charge and advance rolls in turn 2 if double failed. I did get the double. Moced forward and Pavane + the Blissbarbs murdered the Eidolon. Opponent felt really dejected by this but I assured him to keep playing. He doubled in response and tore through the entire army minus Syll'esske. Killed the Thralls and 1 Eel in the fight back but infamous turn 3 double for Idoneth was my doom. Closest thing to fun I have had. If I had the chance to take a turn I cold have retreated and screened out Synessa with Daemonettes. But due to the gargantuan threat range of his run and charge on turn 2, I wasn't able to even attempt to play the objective. Idoneth feels like a really powerful match up as they are faster than us thanks to flight letting them take shortcuts. 1000 is also agonizing as we don't have any hope of taking something like Gluttos, Keeper, or Bel'akor to help anchor us early game. Casual 1000 point game so I shouldn't be sweaty. Opponent had a lot of fun and learned a lesson about playing "on the backfoot," lol... Edit: Gluttos and Blissbarb Archers are overcosted. That doesn't mean they need a drastic change. They are still mandatory inclusions because they offer invaluable unique options for our army. 15 points off Gluttos and 10 off Blissbarbs would put them into a healthy catgegory. Same as the Exalted Seekers that need a 5 or 10 point reduction, same as Twinsouls and Painbringers that need 5 point reductions. The fact that Keepers, Shalaxi, Daemonettes, Fiends, Contorted Epitome (I'll die on this hill; beinf nearly the cost of Sigvald is appalling) and Slangors are so grossly overcosted that people are recoiling at the idea of "I get some use out of these units, why would we nerf their points?" Is genuinely a fantastic example of how sadly warped and overskewed our points costs are. That said, thanks Enoby for the work of cataloging all the data.

All Heroic and Monstrous abilities should have the "Their Finest Hour" clause. Heroic Recovery slogfests ruin lower point games and warp 2000 point meta lists. I don't have a lot of other complaints for the edition because I feel like I need more experience, but this one seems real obvious.

The pleasure barge is on its base and has seen games at our shop, it only lacks the characters which I don't have the desire to paint when Sisters, Tyranids, Soulblight, and Idoneth are all just as fun to paint with mutable lists. Go back in the thread 30ish pages and you will find me saying he is so good at 400 points he may need a points nerf despite the book as a whole being weak. He was great and one of our best units. Was...with the rest of our units going up and -1 to hit being capped with 3E, he shoild probably be 430 to 440. Only model I have no tabletop experience with is Syn/Dex. They look good, but completely separated from what the articles and story tried to convince us of. These models should have been the central point of the battletome with a new Faction, and the explanation of a mortal resurgence. Not a villain of the week in a supplement book. I was also there the night of leaks informing people Twinsouls would be one of the viable paths forward. They are good and likely where they need to be; maybe 5 points less, but probably fine. I love this army. I do. I still paint the daemon side and use them in 40k. I didn't even buy a Keeper in the years of our fresh battletome (Wanted to build up experience). https://imgur.com/a/WJkNAGE Progress on my Keeper (Can't find a current image) Magnetized poorly and still has a ton of work to be done but I poured my heart into this thing and pushed to the best of my capabilities. I can't find success with him outside of summoning. Maybe I am a bad player; maybe we all are. But bringing my centerpieve in a "Maybe I get to use this" box is not what I signed up for. In my 40k Daemons list opponents are terrified of this model. Sometimes it gets shot before it makes it in... But it started on the table. The fact that I have more fun being deprived of using this model on turn 1 vs bringing it on the table turn 2 or 3 speaks volumes. Again, I love the army. I do. And I will offer any advice or input to list building I can. But we spent 2 years smiling and nodding with the nerfs. The book came out and was seen as a miss, we submitted feedback, and the 3E changes flew in the face of all of that. So yes. I do see negativity as a possible option. Not toxic negativity, calling for people or directors to be fired. But negativity; unified, unquestioningly apparent consensus across all media platforms that GW can possibly see, expressing dissatisfaction. And I don't want triple keeper 70% win rates, let me make that clear. I literally want something in the range of 45 to 50 win ratio based on match ups and list design. My word choice and tone is harsh, but I feel my expectations are pretty reasonable... I just want to use my models. I own 12 armies between 40k and Sigmar, and even my Nighthaunt have semi viable builds like protect-Olynder. Only one feels bad every time I use it -- my favorite one.

That's what happens when you release some incredibly expensive, difficult to build and paint models, and reward your fans with the 4th nerf in a row over a 2 year span while having the audacity to make a 110 dollar centerpiece kit not even 3 months later that is completely detached from the book. Then hype them up lorewise as the children of a Chaos god, only to have no reference to this plot shift in the book and in the lore they job to two humans and a Stormcast. Refer to then as Greater Daemons in the hype articles and deprive them of that keyword in their scroll... My Gluttos is still in sub assemblies. It has been months since this book came out and talking about it or thinking about it for more than a minute still makes me livid. They had a slam dunk and missed it; then the ref paused the game and gave them a ladder to climb up on their own with the advent of 3rd edition points change and they threw the ball into my face and broke my nose in response. I know this forum really encourages positivity where possible but pretending like the way this was handled is peaches and cream, and that it is okay to just be sub 40% win rate for 3 years until our next book is actually insane, and nothing will change unless there is unanimous outrage. A reminder to spark your frustrations if you somehow forgot: Slaangor Fiendbloods received the same points hike as Lumineth Sentinels into the 3E transition. There is nothing to delve into or uncover from the book and our points. Playtesters got it wrong. We need a change. Winter FAQ cannot get here soon enough.

A 20 of Zombies has been really lackluster for me in practice. 6s are such a swingy mechanic. The unit also really wants bodies between shooting and fight back, on top of tar pitting. 40 Zombies and 30 Skeletons is showing up in a lot of lists for a lot of reasons. I was also a fool for not including Blood Knights, but I finally found a box and built them up. Very excited to have them done in time for our Path to Glory league!

Slaanesh locus is no longer fight last, it is "can't pile in." It also only comes from their Daemonic HQs, which cost a truckload of points atm. As someone that plays both armies, if you are losing to Slaanesh atm with SBGL please show me both lists. I can either help you with a gameplan, or you may be playing against someone capable of polishing turds enough that I could put Slaanesh on the table again and not spend the next hour of my life being a salty whinerbaby.

Played The Trap against Kharadaron Overlords today. They deployed in the corner and popped Spell in a Bottle Soulsnare Shackles. I'm Soulblight Gravelords. Our Path to Glory campaign officially starts in August and I think I went from being fantastically excited to dropping out of it before it even starts. The idea of PtG is awesome but tying win conditions to killing things exclusively amd eschewing the objective based gameplay is such a bad idea...

Path to Glory has been miserable in my experience. Soulblight Gravelords, 2 games so far and I didn't even get to play in either of them. Game 1 I was surrounded and stuck in the center, and forced to split my army in half before the game began. Boingrot Bounders flanked both positions and rolled an 11 and a 12 on charge, Loonboss bolstered a block of 40 Grots on left flank, and Mangler Squigs smashed into Vengorian Lord. Since the opponent was allowed to set up within 7" of my units... about 630 points of my army were charged on turn 1 by 1000 points of Gloomspite Gitz. 6 wounds got through on my Necromancer (3" range attacks) amd rolled 2 1s and 3 2s. Instadead on turn 1 in a list of Skeletons and Zombies meant to be supported by him. Fun! Game 2 was against Kharadaron Overlords, and there was an invader and ambusher to select. He was the Invader holed up in the corner and dropped Spell in a Bottle Soulsnare Shackles in front of his army on turn one...honestly the worst experience of Sigmar I have ever had. Literally "So, you spent 500 dollars on an army that has no ranged units? In 3rd edition? What are you, stupid?!" I sure do feel stupid.

Nope. Just got a massive release/overhaul. Nighthaunt, FEC, and Ossiarch are all in great need of attention for different reasons. A warband or a new Necromancer/Corpse Cart may come down the line in a battle box, but I wouldn't count on a "wave 2" for at least 2 or more years.

SBGL has several shenanigans to help combat shooting. Fell Bats. Fly. 14" move. 75 points. Eat Unleash Hell on charge. Basic and likely ineffecient but the maneuvering ability of this cheap unit is invaluable because of the versatility. Deadwalkers (Dire Wolves with Belladamma Command also apply) are eligible to pile in and fight from 6" away. This is not a Charge and is not eligible to be "Unleashed" upon. Gorslav hidden behind terrain with a command point + a 60 man Zombie unit is actually gross durability. Back it up with a 30 man Skeleton unit and a 10 Dire Wolf to escort Belladamma... Belladamma + Spell Portal: tie down a ranged unit and then charge their screen. If you kill 2 Musketeers they have to do 4 wounds on the swing back, which may require them to pile in awkwardly and set themselves up to being engaged in when you pile in against the screen, or allow you to claim an objective if they must pile in to a wolf that is placed opposite the ojective.

Conquer, Ferocious Advance, Aggressive Expansion, Monstrous Takeover, and Savage Spearhead are all really solid tactics for this army to score. And while the army hits low, Radukar, VLoZD, and 80 Zombies are absolutely capable of getting Broken Ranks. Amulet of Destiny really feels like a mistake of an equipment, but I also feel like we would be one of the hardest hit by having it removed.

To be fair, it is a similar situation to the Bonereaper Catapult. 3 of them in 2nd edition just meant you weren't getting to play with your support piece heroes, period. Those models tend to be the ones that draw people into the army and as such get more attention to paint jobs. It is no surprise that my OBR with even a single catapult or your LRL list with, say, 20 Sentinels opposed to 50 or 60, is still going to draw ire. In my mind, it is fine; it isn't like I am spamming the "problem" unit. The opponent doesn't care; they will remember the time their 200+ point support unit benefiting from Look Out Sir!, 7 wounds, and a 3+ save got targeted with a single catapult, all 3 shots hit and wounded, and they rolled a 1, a 5, and a 2 for their 3 saves. They're going to remember the time you got 5 6s on 20 shots and failed to make a single deathless save and picked up their Guardian of Souls turn 1. In their mind, the fact you even have the problem unit is the problem. Does it suck for us to be sneered at for things outside our control? Sure. Do I think situations like this should even be in the game to begin with? Noooooo. Honestly, points adjustments or whatever won't fix Sentinels. I like the no LoS threat they pose, they are just plagued by a problem that is running rampant in the game. Mortal wounds on 6 need to be moved to the wound roll, as rerolling wounds is a far rarer ability and is also a 2nd layer of rng gating the powerful effect more appropriately.