The Lumienth waste design space

[Liquidsteel]

It could have a lot of wizards, they just didn't have to make the rank and file troops wizards on top.

Flesh out the wizards themselves, give Teclis a council of Archmages.

Would have felt better, to me.

[Wired4War]

They left themselves a lot of room to grow with this army. There are 3 other elements to explore, and another 4 great nations based on martial (Tyrionic) instead of magical (Teclian) prowess. With other limited armies like Fyreslayers and Ironjaws, you don't get any sense from the books and lore that there are many more units other than what is presented. It's sort of like Stormcast, we know there are a bunch more chambers down the road.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

I don't agree with the OP.  I think largely the Lumineth are pretty consistent in game mechanics design space.  Perhaps a little light on the variety of units, but the design space via the lore is wide open to fill in the blanks.  And I think if and when those units arrive the more complete picture will yield a better consideration of Lumineth in general.  Some factions are apparent with only a few units.  I don't think Lumineth are one of them.  In fact, I think being overly complicated with their units makes a lot sense for a faction of know-it-alls creating a Rube Goldberg army that lesser minds (read: everyone) can't understand its brilliance.

 

(High-martial prowess rank and file units- ) One of the biggest draws for me was the more classical rank and file of the Vanari units.  I consider myself having more of a historical miniatures war gaming background though I haven't really explored much further than 30 Years War.  Even then, I am most spent time  with late 18th Century or WWII and beyond.  I like a bit of grounding in my army.  My first faction is Slaves to Darkness where I focused on Warriors and Knights, and you could be a box of donuts that if they had crossbowmen, archers, musketeers or cannons I'd would add them in as well.  From my time with Napoleonic games I am quite accustom to the rock-paper-scissors that is line infantry-cavalry-artillery.  So I like to have each element represented.  S2D doesn't have the ranged compoent.  LRL does. 

It is a little odd how few factions can generate or historical looking armies in Age of Sigmar to me.  Not to say that is a bad thing.  Just that I would call out any fantasy army using those elements as copying another faction's setup.  Just that faction is being a little more grounded in its core units.  Which is what I think Vanari units are trying to accomplish.

(Every unit is a wizard- ) Let's get this outta the way: Not every unit is a Wizard.  Most of my army (I lean heavy Alarith) units in fact aren't Wizards.  I think as more temples are fleshed out this will continue to be the case.  Not to mention the Tyrionic side of the Lumineth.  However, just considering the Vanari units, I think it is easier to consider the Wizard thing to be just another special ability they have.  An overly complex one (flavor win), but since it is built on an established system, it takes no time to explain how it works to an opponent.  Unlike certain Chaos god based factions ([cough], all of them).

(Elemental Themed subfactions-) They aren't really subfactions even if one the current Great Nations of Hysh makes the Alarith that.  Which I don't really agree with subfactions being these models are really good in this group, but GW is going to be GW.  As for the elemental theme, on one hand they aren't THAT far removed from the cliche earth, air, water and fire basically being mountain, wind, river and zenith (personal editorial: light).  At the same time, they are specific enough to make a difference at least to me.  It isn't earth it is mountain which bring a focus to it that is important to not gloss over.  Same for all the other temples.  It is also important that going this route creates a sort of hierarchy of River, Mountain, Wind and Zenith.  Which again may seem overly complicated.  Which again I would point out is in theme with know-it-all, over thinkers that are Hyshian Lumineth.

(Animal Themed units-) I like the bison/yak theme quite a bit especially how well it ties into elemental theme.  Again they aren't cows which I think is a label placed there by people that don't know their animals very well and/or looking for a way to insult models they don't like.  I truly appreciate GW going with the yak/bison totem animal for the Alarith.  It is a recognized animal native to mountainous areas know to extraordinary stamina/toughness.  Just viewing one it is easy to see why some cultures would attribute them to wisdom with their seemingly pondering, self-reflective visage.  Also, while generally passive, yak/bison are terrorizing when on a rampage.  It is very easy to see them as like a mountain that has come to life looking to trample anything in its path.  Which reflect the Alarith quite well.  They are incredibly resilience, more likely to move you out the way than you move them but slow to attack.  I truly enjoy the fact that GW didn't pick some mountain predator or known territorial animal such as a wildcat, boar or bear.  Panthers, rhinos and elephants just don't have the same connection to mountainous regions that a yak does.  They also, save the elephant, aren't known for being passive, wise beast either.

(Expendable Resources-)  Honestly, this rule does feel a bit tacked on.  It kinda gives me the impression that the designers felt that the Lumineth just weren't quite where they wanted them to be and add Aetherquartz only to find it too strong so also added a -1 Bravery effect.  I have no issue that it is similar to KO as I don't these faction sharing similar mechanics cheapens either faction.  It isn't like KO and LRL play anything alike even sharing it.  The mechanic is pretty common in tabletop games anyway so it isn't like it is innovative.  Lorewise, Aetherquartz can come off as the faction having a strange sort of drug addiction with it.  Even the way Hysh is currently written kinda gave me the impression that the Lumineth don't want to dally away from the realm to long as they literally become dumber (well, not as brilliant anyways).  Which could generate some interesting stories.  Just not the kind of stories I want from my escapist fantasy war game.

 

Outside of Stormcast Enternals, I think Lumineth Realm Lords have perhaps some of the most wide open areas for design space in terms of models, units, lore and perhaps even rules.  I think it is less to do with wasted design space and more to do with incomplete designs.  I think the reason why many feel the Lumineth have a small number of warscrolls (which really isn't that bad on the AoS grading curve) is that the line consist of a number of named heroes with few unamed, three generic/core (the Vanari) units with very limited options and a very specific mononastic order (the Alarith). 

I think it time as the faction expands the design will make more sense.  Or be more palletable to more players as they find the temple/Tyrionic parts of the faction more to their liking.  I consider myself lucky as the Alarith is very likely going to always be my jam in terms of the Lumineth.  I can understand that not being the case for others.  I don't think I would have started this faction if one of the other temples was chosen instead, though; I think I would still started when the Alarith released.  I think this is likely going to be the case for others too. 

With maybe the exception of those who just want updated high elves.  I got the feeling that's not going to happen.  There are just too many high elves count-as/proxy models available both within and without the GW bubble.  I get the feeling GW doesn't really want to pursue that not quite saturated market as the competition won't get the margins they want.  But I certainly don't know.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

For the most part I like what GW has done with Lumineth, the everyone being wizards thing can be a little bit of a headache for player and opponent to track but whatever it's a minor gripe. They retained a lot of the old school high elf themes like strong magic, disciplined rank and file and animal themed temples even if bovines are an over used imagery in AoS (legions of azghor, khorne, BoC and even slaanesh to a degree all have bovine/cattle imagery so it feels weird for an order army to start using it but I guess it's a more "noble" mountain animal than say a goat). The temples and vanari being mages makes sense as the elites and Teclis' forces but i don't expect Tyrion's vanari equivalent to be mages. 

Aetherquartz while weirdly implemented is a cool lore addition for the resurrected souls of elves freed from slaanesh. Yeah i'd want to do some realmstone drugs to mellow out too if I spent a millennia inside slaanesh. Although I'd rather it fill the cathalar's role as once per game bravery management and have the cathalar be the buff piece by "stoking their dormant emotions" 

Honestly saying they have too many design themes is a bit of a joke considering they're just old high elves turned up to the AoS standard of 11 and given a drug addiction.

I do have one complaint of bad design for the lumineth but it's from a gameplay perspective and it's sunmetal weapons. The fact that all vanari get it, plus a spell to boost it to a 1 in 3 chance per hit to deal mortals, that can be cast infinite times per turn and paired with a spell to reroll hits is super abusive and unfun. Lumineth players in my local tournament scene have all defaulted to pure vanari lists with a cathalar and maybe teclis. The cathalar is it's own problem but her effectiveness is more of a matchup dependent issue than the vanari's consistent issue. Most armies can do mortal wounds in some way, many have a unit that does mortal wounds on a 6 to hit, but these are usually elite units and rarely get to pair that with a full reroll or better chances at mortals never mind both at once. So now we have an army that can actively fish for mortals with a 1 in 3 chance with every unit. There's no reliable way of shutting this down without a bunch of dispels handy, sentinels don't even need line of sight and have one of the better weapon ranges in the game. Vanari armies are literally designed to win by not letting your opponent make save rolls and when you basically remove your opponents ability to make one of the most important dice rolls in the game, for the entire game, all the time... you've designed an unfun army.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Lucky Snake Eyes

[LuminethMage]

On 10/27/2020 at 10:04 AM, Frowny said:

Yes, probably my title is too rage inducing. Maybe something about being inefficient with it rather than wasting it since there are a lot of good ideas in them. I just think it gets messy when they smush in too many of those ideas simultaneously.

I also think I'm maybe thinking about them wrong. The goal was apparently to just recreate high elves, which they did, appealing to that audience, rather than one of the more concise armies they've done since then.

But that doesn't get gw off the hook. One could make the argument that the old high elves were lazy with design as well, as someone mentioned, they were a bit good at everything.

Some simple fixes to not eat their own design-old high elves were great at magic but not every unit was a wizard. Why use up that gimmick? Just give them some solid high tier casters. You've now satisfied the high elf vibe but haven't cheapened future wizard as unit releases, especially in the battleline slot. 

I really like the stances/martial side. The deploy in rank stuff for the spearmen is fun. Why not lean more into that? For example, the alirith could have just as easily leaned into their hammer stance, dropping the 'stone'/elemental sub theme while keeping them mechanically the same -now you've doubled down on their most coherent element (martial mastery) and not wasted another idea (elemental stuff).

 

I still don't really get it. I mean, it seems you'd preferred what would have been a more Tyrionic release of the Lumineth, with a strong focus on their martial aspect.That's fine of course. It would have been one way to do it. And there is an audience for that too. I don't see though why that must have been better than what they did. 

You seem to not like the "a bit good at everything" approach. But that's essential elven. From the the first D&D products (elves as fighter/mages) to how they have been depicted in Warhammer and in many other fantasy worlds. You can find that lazy, but for many of us that's what we like about elves. 

And coming back to the lazy part, because you haven't really looked into it, you don't see that both, their fighting rules and magic part tie in very nicely with their Hysh background. It's their close relationship and dependency on Hysh that makes them both good mages and good fighters. 

I also fail to see why "solid high tier casters" would have been better than "every unit is a wizard". Both exist already in AoS. Again, they have a good lore explanation to why the Lumineth unit champions are wizards, and it's an interesting mechanic. It provides the Lumineth units with spell options in the same way KO can chose their weapons to adjust to situations. That's different to having a bunch of high level wizards. You have to make decisions for every unit - do I cast Power of Hysh, or do I have to sacrifice higher damage for a buff/debuff? Or can I use my Aetherquartz to get both in one turn? But what if I need that later for defense? And so on. 

Not sure why you call it a "gimmick", or why this is worse from a game design point than what you propose. Especially because it's unique to them so far. Whereas higher tier casters aren't, and you can play with many other armies if that's what you like. Could you have made high tier casters with interesting mechanics and lore too? Of course, but we don't know how that would have looked like. Could have been better or worse. 

Same is true for the elemental theme. You just state that "martial mastery" is their most coherent element. Which again, you can only say because you haven't looked much into it. What you see right now is Teclis army. And an elf army from Hysh (the Realm of thinkers, philosophy, art, enlightenment, and ... quick action, speed etc, which is represented by the Tyrionic side). Why "martial mastery" should be the most coherent or predominant element for such an army is something you'd have to explain to make an argument, not just state it (and probably would find that difficult to do). 

In addition, the elemental theme again goes back to the High Elves. You could see the Dragons (mountain/earth) and Phoenixes (fire/light) as elemental spirits from that period. They had a similar lore behind them (only exceptional High Elves (character and prowess) could rouse the dragons, and did this via rituals. And the HE always had a close relationship to their lands, that's again one of the defining characteristics of elves in general. It always has been there. None of the other faction has connected to their Realm in the same way as the Lumineth have. The developers  made a whole runic system out of this, with a ying/yang "philosophy" behind, and their own take on the 4 elements. It's much more distinctive than being good with weapons, and it opens up possibilities like the fox headed wind spirits or incorporeal light elves we already have heard of. And it doesn't prevent other factions from having their own take on elements. They could easily make a Grungni earth and metal golem elemental faction which is very much different from what's going on with the Lumineth and their elemental spirits. 

[michu]

Yeah @LuminethMage, for me OP's post is another example of people mistaking "I don't like it" with "it's bad".

[Aloth_Corfiser]

12 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

I also think I'm maybe thinking about them wrong. The goal was apparently to just recreate high elves, which they did, appealing to that audience, rather than one of the more concise armies they've done since then.

But that doesn't get gw off the hook. One could make the argument that the old high elves were lazy with design as well, as someone mentioned, they were a bit good at everything.

It sounds really offensive in general and I also don't get your reasoning. (quoting @Frowny here)

Do you want to discuss niches of game mechanics and how these mechanisms "use up" creative space? Or do you want to discuss the Lore behind these descicions and what kind of World GW wants to create? At one point you say "Warhammer is just a Game" - I respectfully disagree - you also have to look at the backstory and connect the dots to get an Idea as to "why" GW has chosen to implement feature X or feature Y. (As others have poined out already).

With labeling your post as offensive I mean this: How are Old High Elves "lazy" in desgin? Please elaborate on that.
I was a little bit into the Old World Lore (although I am a bit too young to have ever posessed a Warhammer Fantasy Army. However if you look at the general preambles of the 3 Elven Factions you get interesting dynamics: 

The Dark Elves:
-cruel, killing for fun, slavery, raiding, --> they loathe the World and are loathed by it --> they enslave not only sentient beings but beasts and occasionaly each other ---> Spikes and cruel Blades everywhere. or Bikinis and cruel blades, debauchery, etc.

The Wood Elves:
-a fey nature, killing/hunting for sport, implementation of the several fair folk tropes floating around, Bows everywhere, even though they are at home in their Forest some Regions and its Spirits still see them as Outsiders,

The Old High Elves:
-a regal Empire and a Shadow of its former self,  proud Citizens who would give everything to preserve their Realm, an actual functioning governemnt with a levy-system, inspiration taken from Zoroastrianism and the ancient Middle East or the Byzantines (just look at these long Robes and Scale Armour) 

Where do I want to get with this? Well in another Forum some User asked "Why don't the High Elves in Total War Warhammer get Swordsmen like the Dark Elves do?"
Another user pointed out that the Sabres of the Dark Elves could reflect a more aggressive and savage fighting style in contrast to the "hold the line(!)" approach of the High Elf Spearmen. A nuanced juxtaposition highlighting the different natures of these Cultures. The Dark elves emphasizing the Art of killing, they thrive in it, they take pleasure from it, they would kill and maim all day given the chance (don't know if this is exaggerated :D)

When the High Elves on the other Hand have so much other things to do besides killing their enemies and it shows in their weapon design:
-A necessary Militia Force with supporting Units of Nobles riding their Steeds (Silver Helms, Reavers, or even Dragons (!)) backed by rare specialists like Mages, the various Guard Units and noble Beasts, etc..

These other things besides War could be: learning a new Spell, reading a book, gardening,  shipbuilding and exploration, bookkeeping, honing their trade as a craftsmen, painting and sculpting, labouring in the fileds to sustain a subssistence economy. You can actually imagine Elves doing these things, because their Faction is not exclusively build upon maintining constant war. 

How is that lazy design?

I get the Trope you are criticizing - you don't want Aelves to be "good at everything" - others have brought up their points of view how they like it and why it fits.  Isn't it all the more fun to defeat this arrogant piece of *** High Elf / Lumineth Realm Lord after he/she has boasted about his/her prowess and skill? That's a thing I thoroughly enjoy about Elves - it creates memorable moments when my arrogant Toy Soldiers get stomped. And the Lumineth have their wekanesses! A few examples: 
-they are woefully inflexible and conservative on the extreme (In thought and in weaponstyle) 
-this inflexibility is also reflected in their Phalanx -Style Troops
-Aelves are fragile as it should be (they could be a bit mor expensive in Matched Play points though (!)
-they want to be defensive and reactive (more so the Teclian side)
-they are emotional and sometimes moodswingy (reflected in comparatively low bravery under vertain circumstances) [and reflected in the Spirefall in the Lore]
 
So yeah, a bit of a rant without a goal sorry for that. However I hope that I could contribute a little to the discussion, cause I like the Lore even if I sometimes roll my eyes and think "gosh this is stupid" and by no means the Lore we have is fleshed out yet. But I am sure this will just grow with time and publications.  And honestly I think when reflecting about the general points and archetypes of the Backstory you can come up with different perspectives about an Army you didn't like before.

Trivia at the end: How many Armies of Humanoids in AoS can you think of which have topless miniatures in them? A lot right? I was actually really happy that the Lumineth have some clothing on them! Just for the record:

-Daughters of Khaine: Bikinis
-Deepkin: Half naked Thralls and exposed Arms on the Akhelian Guard
-Khorne: shirtless Barbarians
-S2D: half naked Marauders and Warcry Warbands
-old Wood Elves (Wildwood Rangers) exposed muscle Arms again
-Ogres being mountains of flesh and muscle
-GA Destruction (barring Moonclan) and Demons should be clear anyway

Clearly the Lumineth stand out as an army of clothed Individuals with cool Uniforms and Armour among countless Factions of muscular Bodies and exposed flesh and don't waste anything. 😋

Edited October 28, 2020 by Aloth_Corfiser

[Lord of the Isle]

Huge points for noticing Zoroastrian High Elves - I am one (a Z not an HE) and it had only semi occurred to me...

[Icarion]

Honestly this thread doesn't seem to serve a purpose beyond one side whining about things they dont like and why others are wrong to, I don't see how threads like these are productive.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Athrawes

[Sabotage!]

Eh, I think they are fine. If you are going to argue that they are a waste of design space, I can definitely see that, but not from the things you pointed out. To me the glaring fault is that YET ANOTHER new AoS faction is elves. Now we have snake elves, sea elves, tree elves, light elves, satyr elves, shadow elves to come......and yet no new mortal humans? or unique races? or doing something different for GA Death other than ghosts/skeletons/ghouls?

Seems like the AoS design team should have named the game Age of Elves......

[Lord of the Isle]

17 hours ago, Athrawes said:

Honestly this thread doesn't seem to serve a purpose beyond one side whining about things they dont like and why others are wrong to, I don't see how threads like these are productive.

I dunno! Feel this thread has brought out quite interesting thoughts on the Loomies on both sides

[Beastmaster]

9 hours ago, Sabotage! said:

Eh, I think they are fine. If you are going to argue that they are a waste of design space, I can definitely see that, but not from the things you pointed out. To me the glaring fault is that YET ANOTHER new AoS faction is elves. Now we have snake elves, sea elves, tree elves, light elves, satyr elves, shadow elves to come......and yet no new mortal humans? or unique races? or doing something different for GA Death other than ghosts/skeletons/ghouls?

Seems like the AoS design team should have named the game Age of Elves......

In most fantasy settings, elves have a tendency to explode into multiple subtypes. Moon, Sea, Wood, Dark, Night, Blood, Snow, Desert, Half, whatever. No idea why. Maybe elves are just generally all-time popular. 

[Neverchosen]

Full discretion: I have not delved into the army or its lore in great depth but I really do like Lumineth and the ongoing development of Aelves in AOS.

I am curious why these posts complaining about armies are posted in general when there are dedicated forums to these specific armies and it seems much simpler to discuss in their dedicated threads.

My personal take on Lumineth is similar to my take on all other new armies but to a greater extent. Which is to say, I feel like Lumineth are simply a starting point that will continue to be expanded upon. However, unlike many of the other armies (Idoneth, Kharadron, Ossiarchs), I feel like the direction that Lumineth will grow feels much more apparent. I think that the motifs and themes of the army will become stronger upon further releases and Lumineth will be a much loved army.  

I am a huge fan of the animistic worship of nature, embodied by animalistic spirits. It is something that exists in real world faiths and one that makes sense in the lore itself. The rules of the army are very strong but also they have some notable weaknesses and I do suspect that the Broken Realms and the eventual new edition will bring the rest of the armies in line with the Lumineth in terms of viability (not necessarily competitively). I have no personal experience with aethergold/quartz management, but in batreps it seems like a fun gimmick which permits extra resource management. I do not believe such rules should be applied to every army but it seems like a really fun strategic element to armies that do make use of it.   

Edited October 29, 2020 by Neverchosen

[Sabotage!]

2 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

In most fantasy settings, elves have a tendency to explode into multiple subtypes. Moon, Sea, Wood, Dark, Night, Blood, Snow, Desert, Half, whatever. No idea why. Maybe elves are just generally all-time popular. 

Yeah, this seems to be true. I’m not opposed to having a bunch of elf armies, but I would prefer they did a larger variety to begin with and then add more elf options. When half of the new armies they have put out are elves it is a bit much.

[LuminethMage]

13 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

In most fantasy settings, elves have a tendency to explode into multiple subtypes. Moon, Sea, Wood, Dark, Night, Blood, Snow, Desert, Half, whatever. No idea why. Maybe elves are just generally all-time popular. 

The "lore" reason is usually that elves more than most other species connect and are formed by their environment. Another reason is likely that one of the main sources for all these fantasy settings is Tolkien and he already had bazillion types of elves, and he started separate, distinctive elven cultures, which often appeal to different people (what you most commonly see as Wood, High, Dark now). And Tolkien of course based his elves on different folk tales and myths about various elf types in European cultures. Elves being at least somewhat popular, and therefore likely sell, surely also has something to do with it, as you say.

Then, of course, humans are often even more varied but aren't described in the same way (City humans, Desert humans, Mountain humans, Wood humans etc, but are usually divided into nations, cultures etc. for elves often the nations and subtypes overlap significantly, High Elves are basically Ulthuan Elves, Wood Elves Athel Loren Elves), or it's just not as noticeable to us, because of course there are lot different humans. Most of us wouldn't complain if more human factions are released. 

Dwarfs also often have a lot of subtypes, but there seem to be less people who strongly dislike dwarfs, so this doesn't come up as often as problematic. Until this year, you had CoS duardin, KO, Fyreslayers and (well like 30%) Legion of Azgorh for dwarves, and CoS aelves, IDK and DoK for elves. Both had one totally new faction, an amalgam faction of old models, and a faction made up out of one, two models of the old range (a bit overstated). And still, there is much more talk about too many elf factions than about dwarves. Although now there is just one more. 

You also don't hear people complaining about too many demon factions, although we have 4 (or more depending on what you count). 

It's probably a combination of having more than average subtypes, many people who really like elves, and many people who really dislike elves, why this tends to come up as controversial. 

[Baron Klatz]

Case in point: people complain about a lack of human mortals but we've been getting them non-stop since Age of Sigmar started. They're just been mostly on chaos' side. 😛

It's intentional though, the only Order human model we got was the War Priest who came from a tribe just like all the chaos forces do. Because we're still in the dark ages of the Mortal Realms and life for humans is quick and harsh even inside the safer new cities.

Chaos humans can get around this by being blessed by chaos for longevity or twisted immortality. Order humans not so much, we've had plenty of heroic humans between the Realmgate Wars and The Seeds of Hope but those were centuries ago and they're all dead by age now.

Demigod armies of Stormcast and magic races of Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth and Deepkin aren't weighed down by that so the the lore can keep moving forward while humans stay on the sidelines for now until the realm tribes regrow into new powerful nations themselves (and likely humans changed by the magic of their native realms to give them life boons as chaos humans get)

Edited October 30, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Beastmaster]

Dwarves don’t have haters because they are seen as grumpy, quirky and entertaining underdogs, I think. While elves are often depicted as arrogant, good looking multitalents.

[novakai]

eh i would just say Lumineath was just a miss opportunity by GW, they could have probably done them a bit better for universal appeal. Especially with the lack of generic heroes which does wonders for tactics and command traits.

also since this is a rant tread: GW, who thought those 3 inch spear where a good idea, they break easily and they are annoying to charge into without moving the models sideways

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

Case in point: people complain about a lack of human mortals but we've been getting them non-stop since Age of Sigmar started. They're just been mostly on chaos' side. 😛

It's intentional though, the only Order human model we got was the War Priest who came from a tribe just like all the chaos forces do. Because we're still in the dark ages of the Mortal Realms and life for humans is quick and harsh even inside the safer new cities.

Chaos humans can get around this by being blessed by chaos for longevity or twisted immortality. Order humans not so much, we've had plenty of heroic humans between the Realmgate Wars and The Seeds of Hope but those were centuries ago and they're all dead by age now.

Demigod armies of Stormcast and magic races of Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth and Deepkin aren't weighed down by that so the the lore can keep moving forward while humans stay on the sidelines for now until the realm tribes regrow into new powerful nations themselves (and likely humans changed by the magic of their native realms to give them life boons as chaos humans get)

The only order human GW bothered to make for AoS has been sacrificed and reanimated into a superfluous Knight Questor shell. War it the fourth of that warscroll? 8th?

Now there's a waste of design time.

About the spears: Certainly. I thought at least someone should have thought about the issues fielding those, and designing the shafts with multiple stress risers along it wasn't the best decision either.

I get what you mean about many directions being taken at once with Lumineth, but not why that's a problem. Cities takes many directions at once, and that's no problem either. So does STD, in a way.

You'll just have to accept that other things will also use some of the same techniques and ideas. Like beastmen having hulking bovines and smaller ones, other pike blocks, wizard units (like sisters of the thorn or evocators) etcetera. And yes, please unify the rules for that. We don't want something like d&d psionics that made up whole new rulesystems for a few exceptions.

Edited October 30, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Baron Klatz]

He wasn't a waste, he was an excellent addition to the Silver Tower quest and made a nice addition to people's Order forces as his healing ability helped everyone. But he does serve as an example that  order humans in the Mortal Realms don't last long, as per the natural order.

At least he lives on in Soulbound.

And neutral on the spears, at least you can cut them down to make the length manageable. They probably should've went more fantastical with them like plastic glow light effects around the sunmetal tips rather than pike sized.

[zilberfrid]

39 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

He wasn't a waste, he was an excellent addition to the Silver Tower quest and made a nice addition to people's Order forces as his healing ability helped everyone. But he does serve as an example that  order humans in the Mortal Realms don't last long, as per the natural order.

At least he lives on in Soulbound.

And neutral on the spears, at least you can cut them down to make the length manageable. They probably should've went more fantastical with them like plastic glow light effects around the sunmetal tips rather than pike sized.

He was an excellent addition when he was alive. It wasn't a named character, so longevity isn't a problem. We now have a subfaction without any heroes, and this guy would have had the option to buff across subfaction lines, which is rare in Cities. His small gryph hound was also cuter and better detailed than the larger ones.

After his soul was hammered into a misshapen humanoid figure, that's no longer true. Now he's just one of the multitudes of Knight Questors.

[Baron Klatz]

21 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

We now have a subfaction without any heroes,

Cities has 19 leaders. Unless you meant something else?

I'll agree the healing was nifty but I wouldn't call it great buffing across the lines like an Knight-Azyros or Lord-Ordinator does.  Using a Ghyran city gets those heals across too.

Mostly though I just see it as a sign that they're taking humans in another direction. Since he was a mortal version of a Lord-Castellant(gryph hound companion included) they'll leave that up to the Stormcast while realm natives focus on their realmscapes more.

Though if Azyrites come about then we could get new warpriests. The Stormcast tome did have human warriors assembled under the Celestant-Prime like a new force of Devoted.

 

 

 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Cities has 19 leaders. Unless you meant something else?

I'll agree the healing was nifty but I wouldn't call it great buffing across the lines like an Knight-Azyros or Lord-Ordinator does.  Using a Ghyran city gets those heals across too.

Mostly though I just see it as a sign that they're taking humans in another direction. Since he was a mortal version of a Lord-Castellant(gryph hound companion included) they'll leave that up to the Stormcast while realm natives focus on their realmscapes more.

Though if Azyrites come about then we could get new warpriests. The Stormcast tome did have human warriors assembled under the Celestant-Prime like a new force of Devoted.

The devoted do not have any heroes, just fanatics (that's why I said subfaction, not faction).

I wouldn't say he was a human version of the Castellant. Out of wounds/armour/move/bravery/#attacks/range/hit/wound/rend/damage not a single value is the same. Warpriest could unbind, and healing works quite differently (heals instantly, can target non-stormcast). Just the doggo is the same.

[Baron Klatz]

Well yeah, I meant functionally the same as healing support/semi-combat roles that can target chaos. Of course stats-wise the Castellant is gonna be greater. It's comparing an immortal to a mortal

Fair enough on Devoted. Their sub-faction lost everything but one unit that got subsumed into cities so I wasn't sure if they truly counted.

 

[Lord Krungharr]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:39 PM, Frowny said:

 

Animal Themed units- Nobody really likes the whole cow thing, and I agree it feels out of place. This feels like a better stand alone army with different animal themed or worshiping units homed within destruction or maybe as a cool expansion/extension of beasts of chaos. Why do the alirith worship cows? why is every beastman a variation on a goat? I think there is space for cool panther infiltrators or elephant or rhino heavy infantry? There are tons of cool possibilities here, but this one decision eats a ton of that design space.

 

Bullgors are bull-based.  Dragon-ogors are dragon based.  Cockatrices are....well, you get the idea.  Not just goats!

Also I think the Aelves of the Lumineth may be a little Hindu inspired, the runes kinda look like Sanskrit at a glance, and the cows.