Make NAGASH great again.

[zilberfrid]

I am no death player, but I don't think that's a good list.

Zombies don't seem to be worth it compared to skeletons, and I'd really allocate very little to endless spells, considering you have over 2/3 of your points in two models.

I am not saying this is good, but still:

Nagash 880

Necromancer 130

40 Skeletons spears 280

5 dire wolves 70

5 dire wolves 70

5 dire wolves 70

This is an even 1500. Still don't think it'll work. You could take 1 unit of doggos and make them endless spells.

I have tried a few lists, but 880 points in a model leaves you with very few options to grab objectives.

[Archibald]

14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I am no death player, but I don't think that's a good list.

Zombies don't seem to be worth it compared to skeletons, and I'd really allocate very little to endless spells, considering you have over 2/3 of your points in two models.

I am not saying this is good, but still:

Nagash 880

Necromancer 130

40 Skeletons spears 280

5 dire wolves 70

5 dire wolves 70

5 dire wolves 70

This is an even 1500. Still don't think it'll work. You could take 1 unit of doggos and make them endless spells.

I have tried a few lists, but 880 points in a model leaves you with very few options to grab objectives.

I should have mentioned that we play on 48x48 inch tables. Maybe this makes the list a bit more playable?

I agree with you that skeletons sound better then Zombies.

So i guess i will take your list and change one dog unit to the Spellportals.

[Honk]

Not with the new „only one mortal wound save“ rule... Nagashs armor has just been, well, I guess his undead save has just been removed

 

for realz Gdubs?!?

[Sception]

He still uses undead save for normal wounds, butbyeah, this us a pretty notable nerf for the big guy, and probably should have come with a points decrease back down to 800 at least.  As for whether nagash lists will still be a thing... I think that will drpend on whether we see a petrifex nerf.

[Charleston]

Out of Curiosity, what makes Nagash actually so bad? I played some games againt him and it was always a nightmare as he was dishing out so many arcane bolts with the better cast due to the cast bonus, that he gunned down two Stonehorns a turn (14 Wounds with an 5++). I always tought about him as a superior caster, supporter and still a capable damage source due to casts and a not really bad meele profile.

[Nezermoar]

2 hours ago, Charleston said:

Out of Curiosity, what makes Nagash actually so bad? I played some games againt him and it was always a nightmare as he was dishing out so many arcane bolts with the better cast due to the cast bonus, that he gunned down two Stonehorns a turn (14 Wounds with an 5++). I always tought about him as a superior caster, supporter and still a capable damage source due to casts and a not really bad meele profile.

talking from legions perspective.not an ossiarh player

Firstly.it is shooting meta. Big daddy doesnt like it.he might be beefy but not beefy enough to survive massive volley fire, even one turn,not talking about double turn :)
increased point cost due ossiarh bonreapers release,which didnt bring him any upgrades. (multi arcane bolts are garbage as for me)
some problems comes from the 1st edition tome-he doesnt know all spells but he should be.

cant heal himself with evocation (in OB he can)
bad batallions.so 6+choices
few instruments to keep him alive
not a great fighter,not a great mw dealer, not even 20 wounds for his points. legion's magick is more about debuffs, but he cant cast spells known by death mages on the table so his extra spells will be pew pew arcane bolts
must be a general and must be taken with the average grand host legion

did i mentioned he is costly? he takes half of your army and sometimes armies like savage orks can just outrun and outnumber you

[ACBelMutie]

Nagash will loose more than the extra saves if the new Mortal Realms bring us only 1 spell. There are several nice spells to cast with the Nagash +3 Casting but now... and yes, Nagash is overcosted for LoN. I'm not sure they will change LoNs points too much.

Greetings

[Sception]

Loss of copied spells, loss of realm spells, and loss of layered shrugs, and not even the self-healing or full lore access that he gets in OBR, altogether really hurt Nagash in LoN.  Technically LoN is a first edition battletome, so there is some hope that the book might be revised before the end of 2e, and if it's revised then we might see some modifications to how Nagash works with LoN that could help.  However, such a revision would also likely see the removal of Nighthaunt units, possibly the removal of Soulblight units as well if they get their own battletome, plus changing the way Legions work to match the current model for subfactions, which would almost certainly do more harm than good.  On a more positive note, we'd probably get some new endless spells and bespoke models for gravesites, which could be cool, so if it does happen it might not be all down sides.

In the mean time though, Nagash very much belongs in OBR and not LoN, and even then with the loss of layered shrugs and a possible petrifex nerf, I'm not even sure he's looking great there, at least not for competitive play.  Although, to be fair, as a nearly 900 point model and the god of his grand alliance, Nagash honestly probably belongs in big narrative games, not 2k point competitive games.

[ACBelMutie]

Umbral Spellportal goes fron 70 to 80 points, so Nagash will costs 960 points.

Greetings

[Sception]

I'm not super familiar with the meta these days.  Does /anyone/ use Spellportal apart from Nagash?  Because if not, I'd honestly rather see the points on the portals dropped by like half or more, and hand of dust erratad to not be castable through the portal.

[ACBelMutie]

Just now, Sception said:

I'm not super familiar with the meta these days.  Does /anyone/ use Spellportal apart from Nagash?  Because if not, I'd honestly rather see the points on the portals dropped by like half or more, and hand of dust erratad to not be castable through the portal.

Yes, Cities of Sigmar. They cast the Umbral Spellportar where they want and cast spells like the spell witch removes the save of a unit. As long as they can cast the spell fron any part of the table, you can't dispell it and they can get easyly a +2 to casting killing a miniature from a unit. So they kill 2 miniatures and get +2 for Spellportal and +2 to the other spell. They can get more buff to casting I think.

Greetings

[Sception]

Fair enough, i guess.  Though CoS rules play such havoc with the endless spells that I'm not sure it's appropriate to base the points costs on them, unless GW really intends CoS to be the only faction that uses generic endless spells at all.

[Honk]

4 hours ago, Sception said:

Nagash very much belongs in OBR and not LoN,

Sad but true,

to see the namesake of a faction being ripped out and dropped into a new one... a bit uninspired Gdubs.

[Kramer]

10 minutes ago, Honk said:

Sad but true,

to see the namesake of a faction being ripped out and dropped into a new one... a bit uninspired Gdubs.

The other side of the same coin... big bad boss makes his own elite army. Waits centuries to get his command structure in place... and then it doesn’t function better for him than what was already there? 
(playing devils advocate here as i could argue both sides) 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Kramer

[Neverchosen]

Has there been any news regarding GHB points for LoN?

[El Syf]

Nagash could do with his save being unrendable and Morikhaine working for mortal and normal wounds too and probably should have access to all the spells from the two lores in LoN. Call it 1000 points and be done with it.  I'd prefer him to go back to 800 in all honesty but can't see that ever happening again.

[Laststand]

15 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

spell witch removes the save of a unit.

What spell is this?

[Ghoooouls]

16 hours ago, Sception said:

I'm not super familiar with the meta these days.  Does /anyone/ use Spellportal apart from Nagash?  Because if not, I'd honestly rather see the points on the portals dropped by like half or more, and hand of dust erratad to not be castable through the portal.

Lord of change, kairos, teclis,  Arkhan.. pretty much all great casters benefit from the portal massively.

[Ghoooouls]

12 hours ago, Honk said:

Sad but true,

to see the namesake of a faction being ripped out and dropped into a new one... a bit uninspired Gdubs.

Really hoping this leads to the updated LoN being vlad/manny/neffy focused.

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Laststand said:

What spell is this?

Vitriolic Spray of Anvilgard

[Sception]

56 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Lord of change, kairos, teclis,  Arkhan.. pretty much all great casters benefit from the portal massively.

Fair enough, then, I rescind my grumping.

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Ghoooouls said:

Really hoping this leads to the updated LoN being vlad/manny/neffy focused.

Sure, throw in real Soulblight, and maybe true Living syish people (undying king style)... and vampire coast, of course 

then make Nagash great again in a true great alliance Death, like the former „deathlords“... 

 

[Ghoooouls]

48 minutes ago, Honk said:

Sure, throw in real Soulblight, and maybe true Living syish people (undying king style)... and vampire coast, of course 

then make Nagash great again in a true great alliance Death, like the former „deathlords“... 

 

I seriously hope they do this. I'd love proper soulblight with new rules for manny and maybe introduce vlad

[Joseph Mackay]

The problem with Nagash is that heroes of that level (Nagash, Morathi, Teclis, Gotrek etc) is that they just shouldn’t exist in the game, at least not in matched play.

Nagash is very obnoxious, annoying and unfun to play against. Every game I’ve played against Nagash comes to down to if you can’t kill him in a single turn you’ve lost as he manages to heal back up to full, and with his 8 spells and +3 to cast he does way too much to be able to ignore him 

[Sception]

1 hour ago, Ghoooouls said:

Really hoping this leads to the updated LoN being vlad/manny/neffy focused.

I'm confused where you think Vlad would come into things.  Have there been rumors of his return?  Has he shown up in lore books that I'm unaware of?  Honestly, I would kind of prefer if Vlad be mostly left in the oldhammer past.  I'm all for undoing or retconning pointless, gratuitous deaths of old favorite characters and bringing them back in one form or another for a chance to build on and pay off unresolved character arcs.  I love what we've seen of Drycha, Arkhan, and so on in Age of Sigmar.  But of all the big name characters who died in the end times, I think Vlad probably had the *best* showing in terms of his personal narrative, and the best in terms of paying off his character.  I just don't think there's anything more or better that GW's writers could do with him, and wouldn't want to undercut his End Times swan song just to do smaller and less interesting things with him in AoS.

Then again, I was skeptical of bringing him back for the End Times as well, as I thought his old Vampire Wars story was already complete in itself and bringing him back would only undercut that as well, and I was wrong there, so it's entirely possible that I could prove wrong again if the writers do bring him back.

That said, there are some oldhammer undead characters that I would love to see return, characters who I think had a lot of narrative potential left over that wasn't really fulfilled, character arcs that hadn't been resolved.  Abhorash for one.  Khalida for another.  And there is a Von Carstein who I think has lots of juicy story and character potential that mostly went overlooked, at least by the game lore: Isabella.

buncha pipe dream fancasting in stags cus it's off topic:

Spoiler

 

She was always a sort of side show to Vlad, we never really got to see her perspective, what she thought or wanted apart from an infatuation with Vlad that itself could have just been a mind-controlled reflection of Vlad's infatuation with himself.  The first time around, Isabella killed herself when Vlad died, but in the end times Vlad killed himself to save her.  Killing herself again, or even just accepting death from the rift, would be a betrayal of that sacrifice.  Imagine an Isabella who chose to live (unlive?) instead to honor that sacrifice, imagine what she might have become in the millenia since?  A lot of potential there, I think.  Doing a gender-flipped version of the classic Strahd / Coppola's-Dracula gimmick of the ancient and powerful vampire recognizing a reincarnation of their long lost love when she thinks she finds an echo of Vlad's soul in some young Cities of Sigmar hero or memory-wiped Stormcast champion, and creepily trying to groom them to match her memory of Vlad while the heroic maybe-vlad-maybe-not struggles to resist her influence, that would probably be the least creative and interesting thing you could do with an AoS era Isabella, and that's already a book I'd absolutely want to read, and Isabella reimagined as an ancient and powerful baroque vampire lord in her own right, if not a mortarch herself, is a model that I would love to field on the table.  Like, that face and hair, but wearing some baroque elaborate armor, and riding some majestic undead monster or flying soul engine throne or the like?  Come on.  Tell me that wouldn't be amazing.

And Khalida's only just behind in potential, IMO.  For the longest time I thought she was a relatively one note charater.  Mummy queen.  Hates vampires.  Hates neferata most of all.  Not a lot of dimensionality to it.  But then came end times, and I got to see a side of Khalida that probably existed before, but that I hadn't seen myself.  A Khalida with other goals than just killing Neferata, Khalida hiding the remains of her not-quite-dead god within her, Khalida willing to serve Nagash in order to preserve that god, and the memory of her fallen homeland, rather than see both destroyed by defying him.  A Khalida who faced the end of the world hand in hand with the cousin who she so hated, their rivalry rendered meaningless by the end of the world.  I'd love to see what a khalida free from the chains of her hatred could do in AoS.  Imagine Neferata subtly undermining nagash - never openly defying him, but still acting to protect the land and people under her dominion from the creeping doom of the Ossiarchs, fighting off invading chaos and stormhost forces and in the process consolidating territory and control in Shyish away from the bonereapers while Katakros's legions are committing all their strength to the fight for the 8 points.  Imagine Nagash raising up Neferata's ancient enemy as a mortarch in order to counter neferata and distract her with an old rivalry - but while they openly fight and oppose each other, behind the scenes they're working together to build and defend a civilization built in Nehekharas image that is as much Khalida's as Neferatas.

Honestly, Khalida and Isabella were both with Neferata at the end of the end times, and either or both of them could work as allies for Neferata that could help build up her role as a character.  Which is needed because honestly, tie in novels aside, the AoS lore seems not to have any more idea of what to do with her than the oldhammer lore did.  Bringing in some co-conspirators for her to scheme with might help that out.

As for Abhorash, well, I know the Carrion King is implied to maybe be Ushoran, but Abhorash strikes me as much more likely to defy Nagash out of some misplaced sense of virtue, and the FEC's self image as noble crusading knights and the abhorants delusion of being virtuous warrior kings fits very well with how Abhorash liked to see himself.  I think a reveal that the carrion king is actually Abhorash could work really well.  But maybe that's just me.

 

Regardless, back in 1e I complained a lot about how the only important movers and shakers in Grand Alliance Death were oldhammer holdovers, and that we needed some 'fresh blood', so to speak, so that we could have important characters with histories and motivations rooted in the current game.  Then came the Nighthaunt battle tome, and the OBR battle tome, and between the two of them we have enough interesting new characters that I think we could bring back one or two more oldhammer undead without upsetting the balance overmuch.  Again, Vlad wouldn't be my first choice, but even then I've been proved wrong before, and wouldn't be annoyed if I were proved wrong again.

Surely if they DID bring back Vlad, though, it would be in a Soulblight book, not an updated LoN?

 

My preferred format for the death grand alliance as a whole is still to have several faction books - OBR, Nighthaunt, Soulblight, FEC, maybe a deadwalkers/death mages zombie apocalypse + nightmarish necromantic experiments faction, maybe an expanded deathrattle list with some TK elements - though OBR probably forecloses that option, maybe some neat new undead elf faction if Nagash ever gets his hand on a sufficient pile of elf souls, etc, each with their own mortarch or mortarchs as appropriate, and then have a 'Deathlords' book with Nagash, reprinted mortarchs, any other miscelaneous undead that haven't found their way into a specific subfaction yet, and a revised legion rules that combine units from various subfactions.  Like maybe arkhan gets OBR and Deadwalkers/death mages, Neferata gets soulblight + deathrattle, and so on, with Nagash's grand host getting everything and functionally replacing the generic grand alliance death rules.

But honestly, GW seems to have been moving away from integration and interactivity across death subfactions, a trend resulting in the OBR, who can't even ally with any other death faction, and if other death factions could take them as allies there still wouldn't be much reason to what with how much their units rely on their unique relentless discipline rules.

Honestly, I have no idea where GW goes with future Death releases at this point, apart from the seemingly inevitable stand alone soulblight faction, and maybe expansions to the OBR and FEC ranges.