Warhammer - The Old World

[Ogregut]

25 minutes ago, Doko said:

in fact serrated maw is a downgrade because you must waste one attack of ap2 in one maw with same s but 0 ap.

yes black dragon have better breath,but i think NOBODY gonna waste 500 points in a dragon to do breaths attacks and dont go to melle.

also the wyches who was my favourite units,have lost everything.

-they have lost the ward(now the cauldron have a 10% chance to give it when before was 100%)

-they have lost the reroll wounds rolls

-they lost 2ws

-lost 2 initiative and attack first(in some editions)

 

in general the wyches have gone from be hard to play(frenzy) and with bad defense(ws 6,attack first and ward5) but with huge damage that killed everything that they touch(3 attacks rerrolling all misses and all the wounds rolls with attack first i6 and ws6 ) to be the worst defense of tow with 1w t3 and 0 saves and also weak attack with no rerrolings,worse ws and  while having same problem of frenzy.

the nerfs to wyches plus the huge nerfs to the cauldron have killed the wytches.

old cauldron was a allways with zero counterplay or chance,a ward plus rerollimg wounds.

new cauldron must choose betwen the ward or others buffs and now must do a spell with around a 50 % chance to cast and then the enemy have a 75% chance to cancell it with his lvl4 mage doing in practice useless this cauldron.

who tougth that have bound spells in models that arent wizards is balanced when enemy can cancell them with +4 bonus? these bound spells mustnt can be cancelled or change it to a leadership test as empire priests or khemri so enemy cant cancell it.

rigth now everyone is starting to do numbers and see that is imposible do these bound spells with only +2 models while enemy have +4 to cancell it

What edition were you playing with WS 6 witch elves?? 

[Jamopower]

26 minutes ago, Doko said:

in fact serrated maw is a downgrade because you must waste one attack of ap2 in one maw with same s but 0 ap.

yes black dragon have better breath,but i think NOBODY gonna waste 500 points in a dragon to do breaths attacks and dont go to melle.

also the wyches who was my favourite units,have lost everything.

-they have lost the ward(now the cauldron have a 10% chance to give it when before was 100%)

-they have lost the reroll wounds rolls

-they lost 2ws

-lost 2 initiative and attack first(in some editions)

 

in general the wyches have gone from be hard to play(frenzy) and with bad defense(ws 6,attack first and ward5) but with huge damage that killed everything that they touch(3 attacks rerrolling all misses and all the wounds rolls with attack first i6 and ws6 ) to be the worst defense of tow with 1w t3 and 0 saves and also weak attack with no rerrolings,worse ws and  while having same problem of frenzy.

the nerfs to wyches plus the huge nerfs to the cauldron have killed the wytches.

old cauldron was a allways with zero counterplay or chance,a ward plus rerollimg wounds.

new cauldron must choose betwen the ward or others buffs and now must do a spell with around a 50 % chance to cast and then the enemy have a 75% chance to cancell it with his lvl4 mage doing in practice useless this cauldron.

who tougth that have bound spells in models that arent wizards is balanced when enemy can cancell them with +4 bonus? these bound spells mustnt can be cancelled or change it to a leadership test as empire priests or khemri so enemy cant cancell it.

rigth now everyone is starting to do numbers and see that is imposible do these bound spells with only +2 models while enemy have +4 to cancell it

You should be comparing the troops to the 6th edition book, not to the latest (in various degree broken) versions. The game is clearly a new edition of the 6th edition game, which has some additions from 7th and 8th (and plenty from Warhammer Historicals).

[Doko]

2 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

You should be comparing the troops to the 6th edition book, not to the latest (in various degree broken) versions. The game is clearly a new edition of the 6th edition game, which has some additions from 7th and 8th (and plenty from Warhammer Historicals).

ok if i compare to 6th edition,so tow vs 6th:

-1ws

-2 initiative

-lost ward6 and rerolling ALL wounds near to cauldron.

 

so even vs 6th edition now they have worse defense(no ward and worse ws and worse initiative doing them go second many times) and worse damage(no rerolls and worse ws and initiative).

i think is the most nerfed unit in entire tow and im salty because was my favourite units and the half of my list was wycthes+cauldron that now is plenty bad

[Tonhel]

51 minutes ago, Doko said:

in fact serrated maw is a downgrade because you must waste one attack of ap2 in one maw with same s but 0 ap.

yes black dragon have better breath,but i think NOBODY gonna waste 500 points in a dragon to do breaths attacks and dont go to melle.

also the wyches who was my favourite units,have lost everything.

-they have lost the ward(now the cauldron have a 10% chance to give it when before was 100%)

-they have lost the reroll wounds rolls

-they lost 2ws

-lost 2 initiative and attack first(in some editions)

 

in general the wyches have gone from be hard to play(frenzy) and with bad defense(ws 6,attack first and ward5) but with huge damage that killed everything that they touch(3 attacks rerrolling all misses and all the wounds rolls with attack first i6 and ws6 ) to be the worst defense of tow with 1w t3 and 0 saves and also weak attack with no rerrolings,worse ws and  while having same problem of frenzy.

the nerfs to wyches plus the huge nerfs to the cauldron have killed the wytches.

old cauldron was a allways with zero counterplay or chance,a ward plus rerollimg wounds.

new cauldron must choose betwen the ward or others buffs and now must do a spell with around a 50 % chance to cast and then the enemy have a 75% chance to cancell it with his lvl4 mage doing in practice useless this cauldron.

who tougth that have bound spells in models that arent wizards is balanced when enemy can cancell them with +4 bonus? these bound spells mustnt can be cancelled or change it to a leadership test as empire priests or khemri so enemy cant cancell it.

rigth now everyone is starting to do numbers and see that is imposible do these bound spells with only +2 models while enemy have +4 to cancell it

No, firstly, the Maw attack is multiple wounds (2) and armourbane (2), so no it's not really weaker. If you roll well, but this is true for all rolls.

The rule is infact immersive and cool.

Lol, ok, the Black Dragon breath attack is very good against elite units with a good armour save and the survivors are hit with a -1 WS. There is no reall difference between a Black dragon and a Star dragon. But you can happily ignore this and keep posting that Dark Elves are weak.

Also not everybody takes unit because it has to be the best of the best. Lots of players chose unit/equipment options because it fits with the narrative, immersion and etc.. You seem obsessed with what is the best build. Like a true min-max player, but that is not why people play TOW, AoS or any other miniature game.

Edit: It all depends against which unit you are fighting. The Maw attack with multiple wounds is much better agains low armoured troops than the wicked claws and when fighting againt heavly armoured troops the Black Dragon breath attack is much better than the Star Dragon breath attack. The Black Dragon is a solid choice as every other dragon in the game. So, sometimes you will find it a shame that you have to "waste" an attack for the Maw attack and sometimes you are happy with the Maw attack. All is fine. 😉

Edited January 24 by Tonhel

[Jamopower]

Almost everything in the game has changed a bit, so maybe it is a good idea to actually see how it goes on the battlefield. For sure there will be bad choices and good choices, it's Warhammer after all, but hard to say how things work without playing for this complicated game.

[Gaz Taylor]

1 minute ago, Jamopower said:

Almost everything in the game has changed a bit, so maybe it is a good idea to actually see how it goes on the battlefield. For sure there will be bad choices and good choices, it's Warhammer after all, but hard to say how things work without playing for this complicated game.

Totally agree. Yes you can probably theory hammer some stuff but there has been so many tweaks to the game, it's worth playing it. A lot of the rule interactions are a bit different now!

[Black_Templar_Lad]

7 hours ago, Tonhel said:

I hadn't anymore likes to give. I send an e-mail to GW to inquire how long the delay will take.

Was about to and literally just got my dispatch email a few minutes ago. You had any luck mate? Hopefully that means things should be moving forward now!

[Sception]

I've mostly been pretty bullish, "things aren't as bad as they first look compared to 8e," "try the game out," kind of sentiment, but admittedly witch elves do look pretty iffy.  Very vulnerable to shooting, very reliant on their cauldron buffs which can be shut down, and frenzy is more of a vulnerability than a strength - though that's always been the case.

There is counter play - dark elves have their own shooty units and forward ranging units to hunt archers and war machines, and the first turn, when shooting is the biggest threat, your cauldron could be out of dispel range, especially if the opponent puts their wizard behind the front line.  If they put the wizard in a front line unit, then dark elves do have tools to try to assassinate them.

IF we end up in a 1999 point meta you might not always see a mage lord, since most factions would have to choose between a mage lord and a fighty lord.

....

So there are probably ways to play around their weaknesses, and maybe formats where their weaknesses don't hurt as much...  but yeah, at first glance I'd agree witch elves don't look super competitive.  They're at least not too pricey, so you probably aren't shooting yourself in the foot by taking one or two small units of them, but witch heavy armies built around multiple large units with the cauldrons seem more a fun narrative choice than a tough competitive one.

That said, you can always run them as DoK in AoS, and a non-witch based dark elf army does seem like it has some other options that look a fair bit better.

[Public Universal Duardin]

5 hours ago, Sception said:

As mentioned by others, this isn't the first edition where vampires have been forced to choose between armor and spellcasting.  with their high initiative and 5+ regeneration a vampire might bank on not needing armor, especially if they invest in a ward save.

Now tgqr you mention it, doesn't the original Vlad miniature rock a snazzy shirt and cloak rather than armour?

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

You know while this legacy rules update for skaven is quit restricted, (and has some rules that apparently no skaven can use (very certain that’s a mistake) it actually feels like you are writing a list with skaven.

in comparison to the current aos 3.0 book, this legacy pdf actually got some love for the skaven

Definitely makes me regret selling my Island of Blood Skaven after End Times ended. The folly of youth...

[Public Universal Duardin]

Regarding orders in the EU:

My brother shared this with me a couple minutes ago. Seems there's been some supply chain issues regarding minis (Liche Priest was only model he ordered, otherwise it was the novel and Old World Map).

So seems everyone will get their orders at beginning of February.

Edited January 24 by Public Universal Duardin
Edit

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, alyra said:

And the stance on breath atacks. what is his use???? sure it sound really powerfull and good, a  flametrower on a big block of units !

Currently you could use the breath weapon after failing a charge  (couldn’t find anything contradicting it)

[Bolfrig Bearhide]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Currently you could use the breath weapon after failing a charge  (couldn’t find anything contradicting it)

I think based on the clarification in the FAQ that a breath weapon cannot be used after marching as it counts as a shooting attack, the same restriction would be in place after a failed charge. 

[Tonhel]

41 minutes ago, Black_Templar_Lad said:

Was about to and literally just got my dispatch email a few minutes ago. You had any luck mate? Hopefully that means things should be moving forward now!

Still processing 🙂

Edit: I would like your post, but I am out of likes. 🙂

Edited January 24 by Tonhel

[The Red King]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

yes high elf dragon with +1 ws than dark elfs and +1 stomp sttack with save2 ward 5 and 5regen vs black dragon save 3(where are u finding the save 2?) ward 5 and no regen.

i see worse the black dragon

Armor of blood or a shield on the dreadlord + the full plate armor of a dragons scales? So not even a magic item. Even better than I thought. Plus the pendant gives a 5+ ward against everything AND a 4+ ward against anything strength 6 or higher. Which is huge because you'll need strength 6 or poison to reliable wound it.

[Jamopower]

On theiryhammer side (and by reading peoples woes) it looks initially like chaos, lizards and vampires have been toned down a bit from what they were in 6th, while high and dark elves, dwarfs and beastmen are bit better, which in overall sounds pretty promising as it would go pretty well according to their ”tiers” in the 6th ed. Wood elves look to be pretty same as they were, other armies I haven’t looked in too much detail as I don’t have them.

[Kitsumy]

2 hours ago, Jamopower said:

On theiryhammer side (and by reading peoples woes) it looks initially like chaos, lizards and vampires have been toned down a bit from what they were in 6th, while high and dark elves, dwarfs and beastmen are bit better, which in overall sounds pretty promising as it would go pretty well according to their ”tiers” in the 6th ed. Wood elves look to be pretty same as they were, other armies I haven’t looked in too much detail as I don’t have them.

noooo how can u say lizardmens are worse.

they are the slowest army in the game, whose biggest strenght always was the magic, and being toughter than most, and with cold blood as signature making them the most staying ( not going amywhere) army coupled with dwarfs.

now this game heavy toned down magic, init is most important than ever, cold blood dont work in break tests or stupidity test, the removal os scaly skin..... isnt hard to guess what would happen

lizardmens would have need an increase in durability across the board to make up for being punched always before doing anything. but they save far worse than always and got a ridiculous increase in points ( saurus were always around 11-12p, now they are worse in this game and cost 15!) when most of other books i read have keep mostly same points.

dinosaurs hit rates are a joke too, stegadon at ws2( since they have to use skink ws)????? carnosaurs hitting at 5s to monstersheros etc 

Edited January 24 by Kitsumy

[Doko]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

Armor of blood or a shield on the dreadlord + the full plate armor of a dragons scales? So not even a magic item. Even better than I thought. Plus the pendant gives a 5+ ward against everything AND a 4+ ward against anything strength 6 or higher. Which is huge because you'll need strength 6 or poison to reliable wound it.

falsr,you cant use blood armor and full plate armor.both are armor and you must choose one.

dark elfs cant get better than save 3 as i said and ward 5 while high elf have s2 ward 5 and regen 6

[Doko]

i wont continue saying the same because this forum is very positive and dont acept negative coments,but rigth now internet is burning with everyone laughing of the supposed gw gave same love and effort toward legacy armys;

 

only some examples of errore with legacy armys that cores domt have any:

-dark elfs murderous skill is buged and dont work with the units that have it

-vampire counts  have a spell that is 9/12 but the description say 7/9

-dark elves havent black ark fleetmasters.

-the power level of legacy is balanced betwen legacy armys but is way way worse than core armys.

oh this is only a example and explained in a better english than mine.

 

 

Edited January 24 by Doko

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

Armor of blood or a shield on the dreadlord + the full plate armor of a dragons scales? So not even a magic item.

I am not sure it works line that. The way I remember it the dragon‘s save would only matter if the rider’s complete armour was worse - so no combining if the dragon‘s armour + the rider’s shield.

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Jamopower said:

On theiryhammer side (and by reading peoples woes) it looks initially like chaos, lizards and vampires have been toned down a bit from what they were in 6th, while high and dark elves, dwarfs and beastmen are bit better, which in overall sounds pretty promising as it would go pretty well according to their ”tiers” in the 6th ed. Wood elves look to be pretty same as they were, other armies I haven’t looked in too much detail as I don’t have them.

tier list going around is this:

 

top: orcs and goblins

t1: beastment and warriors of caos

t2: high elfs,brettonian and khemri

t3: wood elves,empire

t4: dwarfs and legacy armys

[Kitsumy]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I am not sure it works line that. The way I remember it the dragon‘s save would only matter if the rider’s complete armour was worse - so no combining if the dragon‘s armour + the rider’s shield.

yes i dont think u can use both, u only get to use the best armor and thats it, it is like the nerfed scaly skin of lizardmens. u always would add the armor to the scaly since it was a bonus for being thoughter, not anymore, it could say only u are equipped with heavy armor, wouldnt be so confussing. they simply deleted scaly skin on the game, and gave those miniatures an armor in his place if u understand it now.

[Jamopower]

39 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

noooo how can u say lizardmens are worse.

they are the slowest army in the game, whose biggest strenght always was the magic, and being toughter than most, and with cold blood as signature making them the most staying ( not going amywhere) army coupled with dwarfs.

now this game heavy toned down magic, init is most important than ever, cold blood dont work in break tests or stupidity test, the removal os scaly skin..... isnt hard to guess what would happen

lizardmens would have need an increase in durability across the board to make up for being punched always before doing anything. but they save far worse than always and got a ridiculous increase in points ( saurus were always around 11-12p, now they are worse in this game and cost 15!) when most of other books i read have keep mostly same points.

dinosaurs hit rates are a joke too, stegadon at ws2( since they have to use skink ws)????? carnosaurs hitting at 5s to monstersheros etc 

I played a lot of 6th ed with Lizardmen and they were very broken army back then. Especially cold blooded was ridiculously good. I however still have strong faith that screen of skinks backed up with heavy hitting dinosaurs (that have more variety than before) is still a very good combination.

 

I also don’t believe iniative will really matter that much. Getting rid of chariots and dragons (perhaps with poisoned blowpipes) will matter much nore.

Edited January 24 by Jamopower

[The Red King]

Meh. However it works armor of blood gives a 3+ save (after you kill 2 models) and a shield gives +1 so using just the dreadlords save you get a 2+ and have the dragons 3+ until you kill some (2? Models) plus the 5++/4++ seems fine to me.

Edited January 24 by The Red King

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 minutes ago, Doko said:

tier list going around is this:

 

top: orcs and goblins

t1: beastment and warriors of caos

t2: high elfs,brettonian and khemri

t3: wood elves,empire

t4: dwarfs and legacy armys

It's way too early for tier lists for a game as complex as TOW.

[Doko]

4 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Meh. However it works armor of blood gives a 3+ save and a shield gives +1 so using just the dreadlords save you get a 2+ and have the dragons 3+ until you kill some (2? Models) plus the 5++/4++ seems fine to me.

error , with armor of blood and shield then you have save 4+ of dragon or ryder untill you start killing things.

fine for you? sure,but not fine for dark elf players that would preffer have save2 allways as the high elfs and that if we ignore that high elfs have regen 5+ and dark elfs cant get it and is huge.

 

again as all in the legacy vs core,isnt umplayable but is a big gap betwen legacy vs cores

Edited January 24 by Doko