Warhammer - The Old World

[Public Universal Duardin]

7 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Yeah, it just reads like another "My dad works for Games Workshop and says TOW is rushed, the end is nigh!" piece of bait like we've been getting since Day 1 of it being announced.

 

Shame for the one kid whose dad actually works for Games Workshop and everyone thinks he's a liar

7 hours ago, Garrac said:

Well, I'd be impressed. Even the legacy pdfs  show a lot of work behind, and I couldn't even dare to imagine doing all of what they've done fluffwise, rulewise, etc with just me and 3 other mfers.

Reading the legacy pdfs what I find is that the person who wrote "DONT USE AGE OF SIGMAR MINIATURES" bit and the person who wrote the rest are two diferent people alltogether, or the same guy forced to write ****** because he had a gun on his backhead. I don't doubt that if it were for TOW team we would have had full support to everything. I mean, when you read the arcane journals, do you really think the same devs would say "No, warriors of chaos can't use demons"? Doesn't fit.

I think TOW has shown a lot of dedication, passion and work, and the fact this could have been done by just 4 guys is bonkers.

Also, the fact that this is being worked upon by 4 guys (hypothetically) means that we're not going to get a lot of updates for the near future, lol

Absolutely, it's obvious that even the legacy pdfs are a product of love - I can't really say I felt the same thing reading the Bret rules for AoS all those years ago. It truly seems the different teams at GW compete against each other, because why would the same team that adds post-AoS units to legacy pdfs go 'nuh uh, don't you dare go and buy AoS minis'?

Its all a shame because every model bought from GW is profit for them, and drives less people to third parties. Especially with TW:WH being so big it is and introducing new people to the setting, you'd think GW would rather have some Skaven fanatic purchase official Skaven models rather than some third party miniature named 'evil ratman'. But I digress, that topic has been talked to death already even before my milquetoast takes.

[Public Universal Duardin]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Just 80?

i’ve got like 300paunted and 400….400-500ish unpainted clanrats😂

I hope you run the unpainted ones as Skavenslaves - so low at the rat social ladder they aren't even allowed to have colour. Truly tragic 😢

[Ejecutor]

Slaves to Skavens. A new sub faction that we would have in AoS 4th ed.

[The Red King]

So if a wood elf character takes the bow of Loren (counts as an asrai longbow, number of shots equal to the attacks characteristic) and then takes the swiftshiver shard enchanted arrows for "Multiple shots (2)" does it make 2 shots for every attack it has on its profile?

[EntMan]

33 minutes ago, The Red King said:

So if a wood elf character takes the bow of Loren (counts as an asrai longbow, number of shots equal to the attacks characteristic) and then takes the swiftshiver shard enchanted arrows for "Multiple shots (2)" does it make 2 shots for every attack it has on its profile?

We need a TOW rules questions thread.

[JackStreicher]

1250 pts game. 
Victory for the Border Princes

 

btw: Seems like monstrous infantry/cavalry is immune to killing blow and heroic killing blow?

Edited January 23 by JackStreicher

[Tonhel]

Are there people here from Europe that ordered from GW directly and still have their orders (the books) in the status "processing"?

[Public Universal Duardin]

4 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Are there people here from Europe that ordered from GW directly and still have their orders (the books) in the status "processing"?

I went to check on GW's site but the new shop is so broken that it keeps redirecting me in a loop

[Doko]

after study some of these i think in my opinion gw put zero effort to legacy armys and zero testing,they arent balanced,they are way way underpower than core armys.

i only have studied vampire counts and dark elves,but these have lost every flavour than they had and they are now a copy but with worse rules than high elfs and khemri.

 

per example dark elfs and high elfs allways have had the same bonus to magic(some editions was a +1 to cast). but now here high elfs can reroll one spell PER TURNS while dark elfs only can reroll one spell one time PER GAME.

so they had same skill im fantasy but here dark elf is just plain worse.

as white lion cloack and sea dragon cloack,now both are only a +1 save to shooting,but old white lion was +2 save to shooting and sea dragon was +2 s to shooting AND +1 save to melle,but now both are only +1 to shooting nerfing so much more the dark elf

oh by the way the black ark fleetmaster is missing......great effort put yes.....

 

-executioners are swordmasters but for +2 points and obviously even being more expensiver have worse stats with-1 rend,worse ws,worse initiative and dont have ward vs shooting.

-black guards are copied the phoenys guard but 1 points less and dont have ward neither fear. for only 1 point phoenys guard are better again

-cold one cavalry vs dragon princess, have HALF attacks for same points and worse save(dont have ward) and are stupid. same cost for half damage,worse save and worse rules

-cold one charriot vs white lion charriot: same cost and dark elf have +1 impact hit as pro and handicap........worse ws than lions,worse s the pilots and worse rend,also worse save(white lion cloack) and dark elf have stupid, again same cost for MANY WORSE stats

 

and the list in infinite, dark elves are a mirror of high elfs but with worse rules and expensiver. if we give a 8/10 to high elfs then dark elfs are a 5/10. 

playables but not balanced with core armys

Edited January 23 by Doko

[Trokair]

1 hour ago, Tonhel said:

Are there people here from Europe that ordered from GW directly and still have their orders (the books) in the status "processing"?

Still waiting for everything, from the big box to the movment trays and some extra bases...

[Bosskelot]

Cold One Knights with full plate are 2 points cheaper than dragon princes and have all of their attacks at S4 (remember, the mount exists and it has 2 attacks with armourbane). Not only are they deadlier in prolonged combat but the Knights themselves are hitting at S6 on the charge which is a much more important breakpoint than S5 on the charge.

Not to mention Black Guard have Stubborn and Immune to Psychology compared to Fear (not super useful on a unit like PG) and Veteran.

Edited January 24 by Bosskelot

[The Red King]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

after study some of these i think in my opinion gw put zero effort to legacy armys and zero testing,they arent balanced,they are way way underpower than core armys.

i only have studied vampire counts and dark elves,but these have lost every flavour than they had and they are now a copy but with worse rules than high elfs and khemri.

 

per example dark elfs and high elfs allways have had the same bonus to magic(some editions was a +1 to cast). but now here high elfs can reroll one spell PER TURNS while dark elfs only can reroll one spell one time PER GAME.

so they had same skill im fantasy but here dark elf is just plain worse.

as white lion cloack and sea dragon cloack,now both are only a +1 save to shooting,but old white lion was +2 save to shooting and sea dragon was +2 s to shooting AND +1 save to melle,but now both are only +1 to shooting nerfing so much more the dark elf

oh by the way the black ark fleetmaster is missing......great effort put yes.....

 

-executioners are swordmasters but for +2 points and obviously even being more expensiver have worse stats with-1 rend,worse ws,worse initiative and dont have ward vs shooting.

-black guards are copied the phoenys guard but 1 points less and dont have ward neither fear. for only 1 point phoenys guard are better again

-cold one cavalry vs dragon princess, have HALF attacks for same points and worse save(dont have ward) and are stupid. same cost for half damage,worse save and worse rules

-cold one charriot vs white lion charriot: same cost and dark elf have +1 impact hit as pro and handicap........worse ws than lions,worse s the pilots and worse rend,also worse save(white lion cloack) and dark elf have stupid, again same cost for MANY WORSE stats

 

and the list in infinite, dark elves are a mirror of high elfs but with worse rules and expensiver. if we give a 8/10 to high elfs then dark elfs are a 5/10. 

playables but not balanced with core armys

Had to go back and check you are in fact talking about the Dark Elves with the easiest access to a 2+ armor save dragon who can also get a 5+ ward against weak attacks and a 4+ ward against anything that could actually hurt him (pendant of Khaelith which btw is only 10 points more than the standard 5+ ward magic item that literally everyone is taking)

[Ogregut]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

after study some of these i think in my opinion gw put zero effort to legacy armys and zero testing,they arent balanced,they are way way underpower than core armys.

i only have studied vampire counts and dark elves,but these have lost every flavour than they had and they are now a copy but with worse rules than high elfs and khemri.

 

per example dark elfs and high elfs allways have had the same bonus to magic(some editions was a +1 to cast). but now here high elfs can reroll one spell PER TURNS while dark elfs only can reroll one spell one time PER GAME.

so they had same skill im fantasy but here dark elf is just plain worse.

as white lion cloack and sea dragon cloack,now both are only a +1 save to shooting,but old white lion was +2 save to shooting and sea dragon was +2 s to shooting AND +1 save to melle,but now both are only +1 to shooting nerfing so much more the dark elf

oh by the way the black ark fleetmaster is missing......great effort put yes.....

 

-executioners are swordmasters but for +2 points and obviously even being more expensiver have worse stats with-1 rend,worse ws,worse initiative and dont have ward vs shooting.

-black guards are copied the phoenys guard but 1 points less and dont have ward neither fear. for only 1 point phoenys guard are better again

-cold one cavalry vs dragon princess, have HALF attacks for same points and worse save(dont have ward) and are stupid. same cost for half damage,worse save and worse rules

-cold one charriot vs white lion charriot: same cost and dark elf have +1 impact hit as pro and handicap........worse ws than lions,worse s the pilots and worse rend,also worse save(white lion cloack) and dark elf have stupid, again same cost for MANY WORSE stats

 

and the list in infinite, dark elves are a mirror of high elfs but with worse rules and expensiver. if we give a 8/10 to high elfs then dark elfs are a 5/10. 

playables but not balanced with core armys

I've been playing dark elves for 30 years and I'm loving the new list. 

Really liking the characters, a dreadlord on a dragon is scary now. 

Sorceress with multiple focus familiars seem quite powerful and having access to a signature spell that reduces initiative is great. 

Black guard feel elite now as they should do and strength 6 executioners that don't strike last is very tasty. 

Cold one knights are as dangerous as feelingless killers riding dinosaurs should be. 

Sisters of slaughter have a nice glow up. 

Shades with chariot runners seem a fun idea

And there are multiple builds 

Going monster heavy is viable now they aren't likely to be blown off tbe table before reaching combat. 

A khanite heavy force could be fun or just a standard army of city guard backed up with black guard, knights and a monster or 2.

Every unit has some flavour now and I can see bring in a list. I'm sure as games are played, favorites will shine and become staples, but I can see any entry as unplayable or broken. 

I get this isn't what you wanted and it does seem GW hasn't met your expectations again but I think they've done a great job on the core and legacy lists

There are a few oversights and things that need clarification, but those will come in time. I look forward to seeing the different armies people come up with. 

 

[Sception]

19 hours ago, Jamopower said:

I found the Slann always much more survivable in 6/7th when he was not in an unit...

There was another thing I forgot.  Saurus and temple guard are on 30mm squares now, and there is no 60x60 square base, so there's no base they could give the slaan that would neatly fit into the temple guard unit, forcing it out to the flank even if it /could/ join.

Of course, there *should* be a 60 x 60 square, the slaan isn't the only model that wants one (eg, tomb scorpions would much rather be on a 60x60 than a sideways 50x75), but gw didn't want to make any actual new base sizes, so watcha gonna do.

[Sception]

20 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Let's double down on the arbitrary categorisation and let's have one GOOD and one EVIL forum!

We just need to decide which is which.  I'd say:

Chaos Dwarves: evil (chaos)
Daemons: evil (chaos)
skaven: evil (chaos)
lizardmen: evil (scary, eat peope)

Ogres: good (friends/allies to all, festive appetite for life)
Dark Elves: good (followers of the rightful king wrongly usurped according to canon)
Vampire Counts: good (enemies of the evil Tomb Kings, plus Abhorash was pals with Gilles le Breton, I can only imagin the pdf listing tomb kings as allies instead of brettonia was a misprint that will be corrected soon)
 

[Ogregut]

24 minutes ago, Sception said:

There was another thing I forgot.  Saurus and temple guard are on 30mm squares now, and there is no 60x60 square base, so there's no base they could give the slaan that would neatly fit into the temple guard unit, forcing it out to the flank even if it /could/ join.

Of course, there *should* be a 60 x 60 square, the slaan isn't the only model that wants one (eg, tomb scorpions would much rather be on a 60x60 than a sideways 50x75), but gw didn't want to make any actual new base sizes, so watcha gonna do.

But they did make new base sizes, 30mm x 30mm and whatever the new calvery are on which I can't remember right now. 

A slann standing next to a unit means he can't be targeted by shooting unless he's the closet target so he safer as you don't want him in a unit that you want in combat. 

[Black_Templar_Lad]

7 hours ago, Tonhel said:

Are there people here from Europe that ordered from GW directly and still have their orders (the books) in the status "processing"?

Aye. UK, and my 2 books are still processing.

[Tonhel]

@Doko

Maybeit's because none of our group are tournament players, but my friend who stopped a while before the end times because of RL stuff, is returning and he will play VC and he seems really happy with the armylist. You talk about losing flavour, but that doesn't feel true to us. In fact overall we are very happy with those legacy factions. Are they perfect, no. But I have bought armybooks and now battletomes that certainly weren't better than those legacy pdf's.

So in our small group we will have a mix of core factions and legacy factions.

 

Edited January 24 by Tonhel

[Tonhel]

54 minutes ago, Black_Templar_Lad said:

Aye. UK, and my 2 books are still processing.

I hadn't anymore likes to give. I send an e-mail to GW to inquire how long the delay will take.

[Bosskelot]

8 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

@Doko

Maybe because it's because none of our group are tournament players, but my friend who stopped a while before the end times because of RL stuff, is returning and he will play VC and he seems really happy with the armylist. Your talk about losing flavour, which doesn't feel true to us. In fact overall we are very happy with those legacy factions. Are they perfect, no. But I have bought armybooks and now battletomes that certainly weren't better than those legacy pdf's.

So in our small group we will have a mix of core factions and legacy factions.

 

There is an objective loss of flavour in the VC book but it still looks interesting.

There's also the weird oversight of a Vampire being unable to cast while wearing armour which is a thing they've always been able to do. Otherwise I forsee every Vampire Lord wearing the Flayed Hauberk.

[Jamopower]

3 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

There is an objective loss of flavour in the VC book but it still looks interesting.

There's also the weird oversight of a Vampire being unable to cast while wearing armour which is a thing they've always been able to do. Otherwise I forsee every Vampire Lord wearing the Flayed Hauberk.

In 6th only Blood dragons could do that, which is clearly the version everything is based on.

[Bosskelot]

1 minute ago, Jamopower said:

In 6th only Blood dragons could do that, which is clearly the version everything is based on.

But Blood Dragons could still cast.

And there's also nothing in the Vampiric Gifts that really pushes towards a Blood Dragon playstyle.

[JackStreicher]

4 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

But Blood Dragons could still cast.

And there's also nothing in the Vampiric Gifts that really pushes towards a Blood Dragon playstyle.

Also no plate armour for vamps (but weirdly for dreadlords)

 

anyways I love the lists one can build with Vamps and Dark Elves 😃

Edited January 24 by JackStreicher

[Jamopower]

4 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

But Blood Dragons could still cast.

And there's also nothing in the Vampiric Gifts that really pushes towards a Blood Dragon playstyle.

I'd say that the flayed hauberk (and in general the option for taking armor, and possibility to not be a wizard, for your vampire) is the "blood dragon bloodline".

 

One thing that popped out, now that I have had time to read the rules properly, is the +1 CR from combat order. As it is now written, it looks like chariots and monsters get it as well (they have a special rule that specifically classes them to have close order). For single models (like last members of units) it's bit more ambiguous as there is mention about units of two or more, but also bread statement that all single models are units (and single models don't have their own rules). Having multiple chariots that disrupt ranks and each give stackable +1 to combat resolution sounds a bit broken. Now matter how difficult the maneuvering is for them now.

[JerekKruger]

23 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

In 6th only Blood dragons could do that, which is clearly the version everything is based on.

Yeah I was going to say, I seem to remember this being one if the defining features of Blood Dragons in 6th (the other being they were the only combat hero who really matched Chaos Lords).

The lack of Blood Lines is a shame, but I really don't see the doom and gloom that some others are saying with the legacy lists. In fact my first response to the Dark Elf list was to go take a look at their existing minis and contemplate starting an army (they've got some relatively modern sculpts that hold up well).