Warhammer - The Old World

[Tervindar]

I really have to give you guys a shoutout here, I love the reasonable takes here, instead of the rage that you see on the Facebook groups, other forums, etc. 

Totally agree with your points there, being able to relive and play through the Great War Against Chaos is going to be incredible. Can't wait for all of the narrative books. 

31 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Today's article REALLY goes into the right direction for The Old World (and I say that as a mainly Daemons Of Chaos aka Legend'ed army player - which will still get initial TOW rules).

• The focus on nine Core Factions is an evil a good thing, because it really means focusing ressources (and it was in the title and on the map since the beginning). I expected a few resin characters and 1-3 plastic kits per revisited Core factions.
• The decades before the Great War Against Chaos are a great timeframe, it means a certain freedom for new lore and characters (with minor rewritings) and still an "impeding doom" / "Storm of Chaos" feel to the setting. 
• A clear distinction with AOS is necessary in terms of games "branding". The use of 6th-7th ed. scenery and models gives (back) to TOW a distinctive aesthetic (also sweet nostalgia).
• Larger bases still allows for the use of AOS models (given the article, I WILL use the new Daemon Prince with a new TOW Warriors of Chaos army). 
• Looking forward to the Border Princes as the first narrative location for campaigns / supplements (BLACK FIRE PASS book anyone ??).

Also, we could see a initial launch in November 2023, which is exactly four years after the initial announcement, still in the year of Warhammer's forty anniversary, and still within the original timeframe (3-5 years, taking in COVID, etc.).

As far as I can tell, it took around four years because : 1. the TOW team is relatively small (within Forge World/Specialist Games) and 2. its ressources were sometimes dedicated to Total War and Creative Assembly (confirmed at least for Kislev and Cathay

 

 

[Clan's Cynic]

Looks like they've changed the image on the article, removing reference to Good and Evil armies. Were Tomb King fans giving them flak on social media or something? 

[Tervindar]

7 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Looks like they've changed the image on the article, removing reference to Good and Evil armies. Were Tomb King fans giving them flak on social media or something? 

Yeah, people were complaining about Tomb Kings being evil, and not like a neutral. I saw quite a bit on FB and reddit. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Tervindar

[Noserenda]

I think it was doing the setting a disservice tbh, most factions in warhammer are considerably more nuanced than "good and evil" after all. 

Like, the glaringly obvious example of Tomb Kings and Wood Elves, who should have exactly the same "alignment" of being reclusive, somewhat outside the regular, dislike chaos but Kill most visitors on sight and occasionally mess with the Bretonnians for laughs. They are both "neutral" if you have to be so basic

[Bosskelot]

Personally I find the concerns that the pdf factions may end of being Legends'd really absurd.

Things get put in Legends when the models stop being made and sold.

Have a look at all of the AOS factions in those pdf armies and tell me their entire model ranges are going to stop being sold. Go on.

[Austin]

38 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

Personally I find the concerns that the pdf factions may end of being Legends'd really absurd.

Things get put in Legends when the models stop being made and sold.

Have a look at all of the AOS factions in those pdf armies and tell me their entire model ranges are going to stop being sold. Go on.

Absurd is a strong word when the quote from the article is “not part of the narrative we’re telling in the Old World.”

They don’t need to be put anywhere, there already aren’t rules or a game for models that aren’t part of AoS. 

[Clan's Cynic]

On a more optimistic note, none of the photos today showed ye olde Slayers in them so I'll continue huffing Hopeium that this means we'll finally see plastic Dwarf Slayers.

The Dragon Slayer was an 8th release (and plastic) so presumably some form of CAD file would exist for them.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Clan's Cynic

[Snorri Nelriksson]

6 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

On a more optimistic note, none of the photos today showed ye olde Slayers in them so I'll continue huffing Hopeium that this means we'll finally see plastic Dwarf Slayers.

The Dragon Slayer was an 8th release (and plastic) so presumably some form of CAD file would exist for them.

I hope at least they'll not repeat the sculpting mistakes of the Fyreslayer range though.

[Bosskelot]

7 hours ago, Austin said:

Absurd is a strong word when the quote from the article is “not part of the narrative we’re telling in the Old World.”

They don’t need to be put anywhere, there already aren’t rules or a game for models that aren’t part of AoS. 

Having 0 rules for models in AOS will be super weird since that describes the ranges of more than half of the factions mentioned in both the narrative stuff and the pdf ones. Skaven rules without clanrats? Yeah, okay.

[Wraith]

Back to bases....this guy thinks Citadel miniatures were too big for their bases from 1994 onward. I think he might be right. I have only been looking at Dark Elves, but their Black Guard from the late 90's really needed a bigger base.

When you look at his size comparisons, I can see why I can't recall ranking up issues from back in the day. The original base sizes might be good for anyone playing the first 3 editions only. I might have to donate my pile of 20mm bases to some Oldhammer group.

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

16 hours ago, GhostShark said:

I don't really understand the "who is this for" questions. People have been asking for this for years. It looks like TOW will be a new system that allows:

- Older players to play their classic WHFB armies

- New player to pick up re-released armies to get started.

- New models expanding those ranges for both old and new players to buy.

- A focus on 9 specific armies for now, but rules for all armies.

- The suggestion of even more armies in the future.

- Ongoing support.

What's the actual problem? This seems like a dream come true. 

Don't misunderstand me: When I ask "Who is TOW for?" I am not trying to put down the game. I hope the game succeeds. I will definitely buy some of the new and returning Tomb Kings stuff.

What I am talking about what GW thinks their target market for The Old World is.

Initially, people were saying "They want the Total War audience, they want to bring in new players." But recently GW have come out to say that TOW is not going to be a beginner wargame. Plus, I think for new players, old models are not exciting. Yeah, it's nice to have access to Bretonnian and Tomb Kings models again, but a lot of those models objectively look really dated. New models for those factions is what would really be appealing. That metal treelord only looks good to people with nostalgia goggles, especially if you put it next to the new version. It is my belief that new players who came to like the lore and setting of the old world don't care about square bases, rank-and-flank gameplay and goblin green base rims. They just want a fun game with cool miniatures to play in the setting. With the limited number of supported factions that was just revealed, I think it's pretty clear at this point that the game is not designed for ease of entry. Sure, it's nice to have index rules for "non-supported" factions, but good luck buidling that chaos dwarf army when you can't buy the models. Also, I think it's pretty clear now that AoS kits are not being designed with dual use for TOW in mind. They want the games to be distinct, for better or worse.

So it seems the game is aimed at returning players. However, the target audience cannot be already enfranchised old players, because they have no reason to buy new stuff. I remember a story from a podcast where one of the hosts had just acquired the license to... Battletech? I think. They were talking to established battletech players at conventions, and they were talking to a guy who apparently had been playing the game with the oldest ruleset, using the same models for 20 years or something like that. And they straight up had to tell them: You are not part of our target demographic. Even though you have been playing for 20 years, if you have not been buying any products, we cannot design and market the game to appeal to you. In TOW terms, people who have been playing old editions with armies they already have since AoS got released cannot be the target demographic, either: They don't need models, they already have armies they are playing with. They don't need rules, they have old editions and stuff like Kings of War, One Page Rules and Conquest. And that's what makes me ask the question: Who is this game for? Experienced tabletop players in their 30s who have nostalgia for the old world, but don't currently play WHFB? Seems like a small market to me.

Of course, it is good to having official support again, both in terms of rules and models. But is this enough for the game to be successful? We should not forget that Warhammer Fantasy had to be discontinued in the past for lack of sales. So I very much doubt that going back and doing the same thing again with TOW is a recipe for success.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

Having 0 rules for models in AOS will be super weird since that describes the ranges of more than half of the factions mentioned in both the narrative stuff and the pdf ones. Skaven rules without clanrats? Yeah, okay.

I think that just means "We won't put Stormcast and Deepkin into the game", not "Literally no models currently in use in AoS will get rules."

[Gotz]

17 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think that just means "We won't put Stormcast and Deepkin into the game", not "Literally no models currently in use in AoS will get rules."

Exactly that.

We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles. 

I think the article makes it clear. Stuff that is in AoS that has a counterpart in WFB 8th will have rules. Stuff created for AoS (stormcast, deepkin, fireslayers, kharadron, lumineth, etc... won't)

I wonder if they'll delve in stuff prior to 6th ed, or it would be mostly what was on the lists for 8th

Also I'm really curious about the units loadout if they'll go for the more streamlined editions where most units didn't have much customization or the more freeform early editions.

I asume the former, as it will probably be limited to what loadout the miniatures have, but it would be nice smaller scale armies with more customization. One can dream XD

Edited May 24, 2023 by Gotz

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Gotz said:

think the article makes it clear. Stuff that is in AoS that has a counterpart in WFB 8th will have rules. Stuff created for AoS (stormcast, deepkin, fireslayers, kharadron, lumineth, etc... won't)

Not going to lie, though: I'd kind of love to see the AoS factions in the old world as a kind of non-canon dream match scenario. Tomb Kings vs. OBR would be super cool.

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

Classic High Elves vs displaced Idoneth, come to inhabit the Underworld Sea. Chupayotl. The sunken ruins of Tiranoc. Crawling by moonlight across the broken shards of that once mighty land, blind faces turned skyward to bask in Lileath’s gentle light. A mother, to replace the Father who abandoned them. Mathlaan’s first halls, a home. 😍

[GhostShark]

44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Don't misunderstand me: When I ask "Who is TOW for?" I am not trying to put down the game. I hope the game succeeds. I will definitely buy some of the new and returning Tomb Kings stuff.

What I am talking about what GW thinks their target market for The Old World is.

Initially, people were saying "They want the Total War audience, they want to bring in new players." But recently GW have come out to say that TOW is not going to be a beginner wargame. Plus, I think for new players, old models are not exciting. Yeah, it's nice to have access to Bretonnian and Tomb Kings models again, but a lot of those models objectively look really dated. New models for those factions is what would really be appealing. That metal treelord only looks good to people with nostalgia goggles, especially if you put it next to the new version. It is my belief that new players who came to like the lore and setting of the old world don't care about square bases, rank-and-flank gameplay and goblin green base rims. They just want a fun game with cool miniatures to play in the setting. With the limited number of supported factions that was just revealed, I think it's pretty clear at this point that the game is not designed for ease of entry. Sure, it's nice to have index rules for "non-supported" factions, but good luck buidling that chaos dwarf army when you can't buy the models. Also, I think it's pretty clear now that AoS kits are not being designed with dual use for TOW in mind. They want the games to be distinct, for better or worse.

So it seems the game is aimed at returning players. However, the target audience cannot be already enfranchised old players, because they have no reason to buy new stuff. I remember a story from a podcast where one of the hosts had just acquired the license to... Battletech? I think. They were talking to established battletech players at conventions, and they were talking to a guy who apparently had been playing the game with the oldest ruleset, using the same models for 20 years or something like that. And they straight up had to tell them: You are not part of our target demographic. Even though you have been playing for 20 years, if you have not been buying any products, we cannot design and market the game to appeal to you. In TOW terms, people who have been playing old editions with armies they already have since AoS got released cannot be the target demographic, either: They don't need models, they already have armies they are playing with. They don't need rules, they have old editions and stuff like Kings of War, One Page Rules and Conquest. And that's what makes me ask the question: Who is this game for? Experienced tabletop players in their 30s who have nostalgia for the old world, but don't currently play WHFB? Seems like a small market to me.

Of course, it is good to having official support again, both in terms of rules and models. But is this enough for the game to be successful? We should not forget that Warhammer Fantasy had to be discontinued in the past for lack of sales. So I very much doubt that going back and doing the same thing again with TOW is a recipe for success.

I think the main target audience is pretty clearly old players, with a smaller emphasis on "new" players who missed out on WHFB the first time but were always curious and an even smaller emphasis on genuinely new players.

I suspect that nearly a  decade of old WHFB players loudly saying they wanted the game back and would play it if only GW let them led GW to believe that they wanted the game back and would play it.

Whether or not GW is too late or overestimated the demand is another issue of course.

[silverstu]

Yeah I have today I thought it was a good article - I'm glad they are focusing on a limited set of factions initially but ensuring rules are there for all the other armies. I got the sense that they will expand beyond this initial setting in future campaigns. I'm hoping the mentioned factions get some new plastic kits and I think the potential to kit bash or use as "counts as" with AoS kits could really freshen things up as well. Kurnoth hunters would make great treekin alternatives. 

Interested to see what kits come back and hoping for some nice made to order stuff- I'd love a few more of Colin Dixons Long Beard models for example and Bugmans Rangers!

 

 

[Tervindar]

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Back to bases....this guy thinks Citadel miniatures were too big for their bases from 1994 onward. I think he might be right. I have only been looking at Dark Elves, but their Black Guard from the late 90's really needed a bigger base.

When you look at his size comparisons, I can see why I can't recall ranking up issues from back in the day. The original base sizes might be good for anyone playing the first 3 editions only. I might have to donate my pile of 20mm bases to some Oldhammer group.

 

 

Thank you for sharing, this is a truly great video and was very eye opening for me. I was putting some sword masters on 25s last night and boy do they look better imo. 

[The Red King]

10 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Experienced tabletop players in their 30s who have nostalgia for the old world, but don't currently play WHFB?

Finally a wargame for me!*

 

*and only me lol

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, The Red King said:

Finally a wargame for me!*

 

*and only me lol

And me!

 

Or not: I don't really plan to play (I don't like rank and file very much) but in my teens I used to look longingly to the Wood Elves (waywatchers and wardancers in particular) which I just couldn't afford. So, if models are available and not prices crazily, I plan to build and paint that army to honour 16 years old penniless me... And then probably put it in a box and never take it out 🤷‍♂️

 

Thinking of the pricing, what are your feelings? What would be a reasonable/realistic pricing for a box of old minis ?

[Noserenda]

I guess the test will be units invented/updated for AoS that would fit perfectly well in WFB armies/era.

Base size has definitely been an issue forever, like, even as a kid building the brand new regiment kit Chaos warriors they absolutely struggled to fit on bases and in the end i had to write a grid reference on each minis base for the one spot they would go and form a coherent square

A proper unit of plastic slayers would be ace, i clearly never bought enough as a nipper and their prices these days are sky high!

Edited May 24, 2023 by Noserenda

[JerekKruger]

2 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I guess the test will be units invented/updated for AoS that would fit perfectly well in WFB armies/era.

Base size has definitely been an issue forever, like, even as a kid building the brand new regiment kit Chaos warriors they absolutely struggled to fit on bases and in the end i had to write a grid reference on each minis base for the one spot they would go and form a coherent square

I used to paint a number and letter on the base of each mini so I could talk them up. WFB had rules for reforming units into new formations, but I never used them because there was no way I could rank them up in anything but they're default formation 😄

[Tervindar]

16 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I guess the test will be units invented/updated for AoS that would fit perfectly well in WFB armies/era.

Base size has definitely been an issue forever, like, even as a kid building the brand new regiment kit Chaos warriors they absolutely struggled to fit on bases and in the end i had to write a grid reference on each minis base for the one spot they would go and form a coherent square

A proper unit of plastic slayers would be ace, i clearly never bought enough as a nipper and their prices these days are sky high!

Yeah, I'm overly excited for the new base sizes, for that reason. That's an extra barrier / QoL that will be addressed with larger bases. I remember trying to rank black orks and that was miserable lol. 

[Grimrock]

10 hours ago, GhostShark said:

I think the main target audience is pretty clearly old players, with a smaller emphasis on "new" players who missed out on WHFB the first time but were always curious and an even smaller emphasis on genuinely new players.

I suspect that nearly a  decade of old WHFB players loudly saying they wanted the game back and would play it if only GW let them led GW to believe that they wanted the game back and would play it.

Whether or not GW is too late or overestimated the demand is another issue of course.

I think this is correct and the limited scope is probably good evidence for it. They're investing what appears to be the absolute bare minimum into the game to see what happens. Bring back all the old kits, sculpt a couple heroes, and see if older players actually buy things. The old kits are pretty much pure profit at this point anyway, so I assume they can break even on the cost pretty quickly. They watch the sales numbers on the new models they actually produce as that should give them an idea of interest, and then if they hit a threshold on sales they start proper production on new models. If they don't then they just keep putting in the bare minimum as long as they make a profit on older kits. Once the profit dries up they just pretend like the game never existed and stop releases all together. 

The main question is whether or not the cautious approach is going to actually hurt potential sales or not. Starting out with a limited number of supported factions and pretending like Kislev or Cathay don't exist isn't a great look and it's definitely going to hurt sales a bit, but then going full bore into it and supporting everything with a whole brand new faction on launch day would've been a massive investment on a totally unknown market.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see because honestly who knows, but it's best for anyone who's actually planning to buy into the game to do it with their eyes open. Evidently GW doesn't seem confident in the game and isn't willing to invest heavily into it, which means they're ready to pull the plug if it ever has issues. Don't go and buy a full army expecting lots of support and campaign books and whatnot. Buy the models if you like them or you wish you hadn't missed out previously (there are certainly a few kits I always wanted to paint that could tempt me for a purchase here or there) but the future of the game is still a big unknown. 

[GhostShark]

Its worth pointing out that we really have no idea how many new models they'll be releasing, or over what time frame. It could be 5 or 6 new kits for each faction all at launch, or it could be 1 character model for each faction spread out over months. We just don't know. I think new model releases will dictate a lot of interest, so until we know what they plan its really hard to guess how successful the game will be.

That said, I don't feel like its a big problem that we don't know this yet. They've barely talked about the project, and I don't really expect them to reveal more until the new edition of 40K is out and out of the way. There's no sense in talking much about another new game that might sap interest until their breadwinner's sale window is safely closed. So my guess is we'll learn more later in the summer.