Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

[Scurvydog]

5 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

unkillable infantry.

Someone explain to me why the sky is falling due to 4+ save 1 wound infantry for 13 points, who CAN get reroll saves by using a CP? We already have sequitors for example, who are the same cost per wound and can reroll saves at any point they chose. Mortek guard can go to a 3+ save, but so can many other armies.

Eels with 3+ unrendable saves to screen the entire army? Witch aelves with 5++ rerollable? Hearthguard berzerkers who can fight twice, get 3+ saves and 4++?  Saurus guards can get 2+ saves and rerolls form a priest. Plenty of "unkillable" infantry going around. Just sounds like a case of bringing the right tool for the job. I

played against our resident Slaanesh player a few times, and he blended petrifex mortek guard just fine, with mortal wound output and keepers fighting first 2 times wich results in  8 attacks (due to sash)  with rend 2 and 5 damage, possibly 5 mortal wounds, possibly exploding hits. Just see the battle reports in the Reaper sub forum here as well, you will see examples of how the high mortal wound output and also activation wars giving the reapers issues.

They are super strong as petrifex elite, without that legion their power drastically drops, so I guess they a pidgeon holed and assumed to be petrifex in any competetive context. But even as petrifex they are just a tough force, with a very mediocre at best damage output, which requires layers of buffs to really take of. They will still just fall over to a Lords of the lodge battalion, first hitting Slaanesh forces and all the other "meta" combos out there right now.

Anyone  actually thinking they will be sweeping all the podium places at tournaments?

[Zappgrot]

13 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Someone explain to me why the sky is falling due to 4+ save 1 wound infantry for 13 points, who CAN get reroll saves by using a CP? We already have sequitors for example, who are the same cost per wound and can reroll saves at any point they chose. Mortek guard can go to a 3+ save, but so can many other armies.

Eels with 3+ unrendable saves to screen the entire army? Witch aelves with 5++ rerollable? Hearthguard berzerkers who can fight twice, get 3+ saves and 4++?  Saurus guards can get 2+ saves and rerolls form a priest. Plenty of "unkillable" infantry going around. Just sounds like a case of bringing the right tool for the job. I

played against our resident Slaanesh player a few times, and he blended petrifex mortek guard just fine, with mortal wound output and keepers fighting first 2 times wich results in  8 attacks (due to sash)  with rend 2 and 5 damage, possibly 5 mortal wounds, possibly exploding hits. Just see the battle reports in the Reaper sub forum here as well, you will see examples of how the high mortal wound output and also activation wars giving the reapers issues.

They are super strong as petrifex elite, without that legion their power drastically drops, so I guess they a pidgeon holed and assumed to be petrifex in any competetive context. But even as petrifex they are just a tough force, with a very mediocre at best damage output, which requires layers of buffs to really take of. They will still just fall over to a Lords of the lodge battalion, first hitting Slaanesh forces and all the other "meta" combos out there right now.

Anyone  actually thinking they will be sweeping all the podium places at tournaments?

Mostly because they can become 3+ re-roll 6+ death save 4+ havester safe, can have up to 6 models returned every round and  are on 25 mm bases whit  a better attacking statline for the points then the options you mentioned.   So yea petrifex elite basicly.  But that is the problem whit the book IMHO. That one legion clearly out shines the others.  The other problem is that supper tough undying forces are not fun to play against.   Bonereapres are pretty slow and don't hit ultra hard (aka the anti shlaanesh)  and that will verry likely prevent them from takeing tournaments.  But for casual play it's just no fun if nothing dies. 

[Overread]

I think that Harvesters will get an FAQ/Errata update so that only one can ping its ablity on a fallen warrior at a time. The combo of two or three being able to resurrect from the same dead model at once is somewhat broken and also a mechanic structure that GW doesn't often use. 

[JackStreicher]

27 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Someone explain to me why the sky is falling due to 4+ save 1 wound infantry for 13 points, who CAN get reroll saves by using a CP?

* that can easily be resurrected

* that have 3-X commandpoints per turn
* that devolve into strong beatsticks

Rerolling a 3+ save equals ~88% dmg mitigation.

they just suck to play against in friendly games. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Zappgrot]

3 minutes ago, Overread said:

I think that Harvesters will get an FAQ/Errata update so that only one can ping its ablity on a fallen warrior at a time. The combo of two or three being able to resurrect from the same dead model at once is somewhat broken and also a mechanic structure that GW doesn't often use. 

Also form what the mechanic is supposed to represent it makes no sense  

[Zappgrot]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

* that can easily be resurrected

* that have 3-X commandpoints per turn
* that devolve into strong beatsticks

Rerolling a 3+ save equals ~88% dmg mitigation.

Whit the death save and the harvester you go up to 98% dmg mitigation.  And then stuf gets resurrected. That is insane.  I wonder if gw will ever learn that they should not create armies that can stack dmg mitigation buffs.  Even if it isn't strong because the make the combo hellishly expensive it's just booring 

[zilberfrid]

36 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Someone explain to me why the sky is falling due to 4+ save 1 wound infantry for 13 points, who CAN get reroll saves by using a CP? We already have sequitors for example, who are the same cost per wound and can reroll saves at any point they chose. Mortek guard can go to a 3+ save, but so can many other armies.

Eels with 3+ unrendable saves to screen the entire army? Witch aelves with 5++ rerollable? Hearthguard berzerkers who can fight twice, get 3+ saves and 4++?  Saurus guards can get 2+ saves and rerolls form a priest. Plenty of "unkillable" infantry going around. Just sounds like a case of bringing the right tool for the job. I

played against our resident Slaanesh player a few times, and he blended petrifex mortek guard just fine, with mortal wound output and keepers fighting first 2 times wich results in  8 attacks (due to sash)  with rend 2 and 5 damage, possibly 5 mortal wounds, possibly exploding hits. Just see the battle reports in the Reaper sub forum here as well, you will see examples of how the high mortal wound output and also activation wars giving the reapers issues.

They are super strong as petrifex elite, without that legion their power drastically drops, so I guess they a pidgeon holed and assumed to be petrifex in any competetive context. But even as petrifex they are just a tough force, with a very mediocre at best damage output, which requires layers of buffs to really take of. They will still just fall over to a Lords of the lodge battalion, first hitting Slaanesh forces and all the other "meta" combos out there right now.

Anyone  actually thinking they will be sweeping all the podium places at tournaments?

As stated above, it doesn't end with 4+. It's also the rerolls, and, very importantly, returning.

Also, stating that Slaanesh does fine against OBR isn't a relevant statement about balance. Slaanesh is wildly out of whack.

I hadn't mentioned stealing command points because I forgot, but that is also quite an unfun mechanic to play against.

 

Sal4m4nd3r wanted to know whether it would be a good army to pick up, and I wanted to reply that the Petrifex playstyle does not seem that appealing to play against (limiting the amount of games Sal4m4nd3r would be able to play in friendly settings, and other options are a lot less appealing.

If I read his post correctly, if the army was badly balanced he wouldn't want it. It seems badly balanced, externally as well as internally.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Scurvydog]

37 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

*that can easily be resurrected

* that have 3-X commandooints per turn
* that devolve into table beatsticks

Rerolling a 3+ save equals ~88% dmg mitigation.

I will not claim they are not tough, obviously they are as Petrifex, but average at best if not petrifex, so in that context you can at least easily play them in a friendly way if you chose.

However these points can easily be said by other armies and also not quite as simple up front.

"Easily" ressurrected I'd say for LoN armies, but with only 3 per 130 pts squishy hero with a 6" reach on that ability, or from 360+ point special characters with also max 3 per unit. Harvesters are very situational and also as monsters with only 10 wounds for 200 pts, an obvious target, as they depends on things dying within 3" and also got 1" range on their best melee weapon, they need to be put at risk, while also only having 6" move, there are a lot of variables and positioning issues to take into account. Not to mention anyone running 2 harvesters next to a blob of mortek, would have a hard time securing objectives, investing so much in a slow "deathstar".

Discipline points is their allegiance ability, each point requires investments to get per battle around. It is not really feasable to expect all units of mortel guard to have reroll saves in all Combat phases. If you wish above mentioned slow blob to move fast, then you needto use CP, but then you got less for the combat phase. Also 1 CP for 1 combat phase, so they do not reroll saves against shooting for example.

People basically assume there are infinite discipline points for all units to have all abilities active at any time, all buffs up and all casts succeed and are not dispelled... Well that is a bit of a stretch is it not?

Sequitors have 4+ rerollable saves as well, and get get +1 from a support hero, why are blobs of these guys not steamrolling tournaments? Mortal wounds and rend thats why. Even Eternal guards with sisters of thorns can make better defensive walls with, but doing stuff like this is just not the way to win games against good players at least.

What is unfun to play against? It sounds like basically anything that is not a basic liberator with just about no rules is "not fun" to play against. Deepkin with units not being targetable at will, and first strike turn 3 could be said to not be fun to play against. Skarbrand removing your models with 16 mortal wounds in 1 swing is that fun? Evocators landing 9" away but with +6" charge range hitting like Orruk brutes and then exploding you with mortal wounds, is that fun? Morathi being almost immortal? 

Obviously it can not be claimed that just about all armies are not fun then, by that logic only the current version of StD are "fun" to play against, because they are so gimped they have no abilities to throw your opponent for a loop. If you want to not simply lose every game, your army will have some kind of ability that might be "unfun" to the opponent, because they will lose if they do not adapt.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Sleboda]

33 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

People basically assume there are infinite discipline points for all units to have all abilities active at any time, all buffs up and all casts succeed and are not dispelled... Well that is a bit of a stretch is it not?

This needs to be pointed out over and over. It's not even limited to this discussion. People always gripe about a best case as if it's always in effect.

[Zappgrot]

 

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

People basically assume there are infinite discipline points for all units to have all abilities active at any time, all buffs up and all casts succeed and are not dispelled... Well that is a bit of a stretch is it not?

 

28 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

This needs to be pointed out over and over. It's not even limited to this discussion. People always gripe about a best case as if it's always in effect.

But in this case ppl are probebly right.  if you take the gaurd battalion. You will generate  1pt per hero+ 1 point for the battalion so an absolute minimum of 2 and since you can use a re-roll for free.  You can always every game all day every single of your own battle rounds re-roll your saves.  So it might be that in this case it is correct to assume that they will act as if they have a 3+ rerollable save. 

[Scurvydog]

1 hour ago, Zappgrot said:

But in this case ppl are probebly right.  if you take the gaurd battalion. You will generate  1pt per hero+ 1 point for the battalion so an absolute minimum of 2 and since you can use a re-roll for free.  You can always every game all day every single of your own battle rounds re-roll your saves.  So it might be that in this case it is correct to assume that they will act as if they have a 3+ rerollable save. 

You can reroll 1 time for free. The battalion requires 3 units of Mortek guard. In order for ALL of them to reroll in every combat phase per battle round, that would require 5 + the 1 free use from the battalion per battleround, just to keep that up on all 3 units. To generate that  you for example need a Liege, end another wizard, next to the wizard in the battalion, that is then 4 points and then the 1 more for having a battalion to guarantee all the 3 units of Mortek can reroll their saves, as the ability only lasts that single phase. 

In that scenario you will not be doing anything else in your army, (unless you get a lot of rolls of 6 when generating points...). This is just for the Mortek alone, then people would assume they also have 7" move, as they can just command point that, and oh also 1 attack because the Liege can command point that, now we are up to 9 points used, oh and they Kavalos next to them can also do mortal wounds and pile in 6" and the OP stalkers can reroll charges... ok now we are at 11 points+ used... 

See the point? That will not happen. Force the players to mark hard choices with those points. If you got some sneaky tactics, well kill the Liege or support heroes, then they have even less points to spend. Again I stand by it is complete nonsense to consider rerolling saves, or any other of the command abilities as constant. There are even armies around with units who can just pick out the Hekatos who is required to use an ability at all. 

That is the cool thing about the points, it requires consideration and a plan. The opponent can also use this. If you engage the 3 mortek guard units in the example, well chance are low they will ALL reroll saves, unless they made no extra moves, no extra attacks or anything else in the entire army, in which case you should be doing pretty good against them, and be able to dicate the engagements on your terms. 

Katakros hits home the theme of the army like a video game boss, namely a Dark Souls boss with all that entails, some people will never beat those games and ragequit, some people enjoy and adore them. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Excellent points, Scurvydog; we mustn't fear!  We must press on and learn the nuances and subtleties of our own forces to adapt to new ones.  I'm eager to get my Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber assembled and try their crazy movement tricks to get around walls of hordes.  Also my 4 Jabberslythe Darkwalkers Beasts of Chaos army. 4 Jabberslythes should be able to shut down a few units in any army until they're killed, which should kill off some enemies too with bile blood.  See, we all have shenanihanigans!

[Zappgrot]

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

You can reroll 1 time for free. The battalion requires 3 units of Mortek guard. In order for ALL of them to reroll in every combat phase per battle round, that would require 5 + the 1 free use from the battalion per battleround, just to keep that up on all 3 units. To generate that  you for example need a Liege, end another wizard, next to the wizard in the battalion, that is then 4 points and then the 1 more for having a battalion to guarantee all the 3 units of Mortek can reroll their saves, as the ability only lasts that single phase. 

In that scenario you will not be doing anything else in your army, (unless you get a lot of rolls of 6 when generating points...). This is just for the Mortek alone, then people would assume they also have 7" move, as they can just command point that, and oh also 1 attack because the Liege can command point that, now we are up to 9 points used, oh and they Kavalos next to them can also do mortal wounds and pile in 6" and the OP stalkers can reroll charges... ok now we are at 11 points+ used... 

See the point? That will not happen. Force the players to mark hard choices with those points. If you got some sneaky tactics, well kill the Liege or support heroes, then they have even less points to spend. Again I stand by it is complete nonsense to consider rerolling saves, or any other of the command abilities as constant. There are even armies around with units who can just pick out the Hekatos who is required to use an ability at all. 

That is the cool thing about the points, it requires consideration and a plan. The opponent can also use this. If you engage the 3 mortek guard units in the example, well chance are low they will ALL reroll saves, unless they made no extra moves, no extra attacks or anything else in the entire army, in which case you should be doing pretty good against them, and be able to dicate the engagements on your terms. 

Katakros hits home the theme of the army like a video game boss, namely a Dark Souls boss with all that entails, some people will never beat those games and ragequit, some people enjoy and adore them. 

You do realise that  the the battalions ability is once per turn right. So you only need 4 points do all 3 units in both turns. And yea an army whit the battalion a liege and a wizard auto generates 4 points. So when ppl assume that they will always be up against re-rolls  they are right.  So engaging all 3 of the units is a stupid plan  thy will all reroll and grind you down. Because you will hurt all of them a little. Its much batter to smash one unit whit brute force trough the re-roles and actually damage one unit enough to  not get it restored in the next hero phase.  But on the other hand you are right no army not even the bonereapers can do all thier command traits it's not 40k So a clever player can overwhelm them still. . 

Also mortal wound are a thing.  Bone reapers really don't like things that cause mortal wounds.  Spiders make them a bit sad.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Zappgrot

[Eldarain]

They've had 8-11 a round so far against me. Plenty to make the Mortek terrifying on offense/defense on both turns.

[Scurvydog]

7 hours ago, Eldarain said:

They've had 8-11 a round so far against me. Plenty to make the Mortek terrifying on offense/defense on both turns.

around 800 points worth of heroes are needed to make that happen. If so we must assume point cost is a non issue to give some 1 wound infantry good saves. If so, why is the eternal starhost  with 2+ save saurus guards, who ignore rend 1, which only requires 1 hero for 140 pts just sweeping the podiums? They even got 3 attacks with 1d3 damage each and can just teleport at will with the new GHB.

Because any kind of expensive tough 1 wound models are just ruined by a score of other armies. Mortek Guard are good but nothing special, there are plenty of units just as tough, why are these guys to horrible compared to those? 10 pts Witch Aelves with 5++ rerolls which also works vs mortal wounds, Phoenix Guard with their 4++ and so on and so on.

Again not trying to say Mortek Guard are not good battleline, but this entire thread being an angry mob vs the new army just makes little sense, in the context of so many other armies which already exist doing the same stuff and possibly better. This thread is an example of a core issue in the community as a whole, the endless complaints about everything which is not your own army, the bias going on in echo chambers, which then also spills into the real world and affects peoples ability to have fun with the game.

Guess we'll just have to let the data speak and then see what people pile on next time with some hyperbolic title to go with it.

[Malakithe]

Against certain match ups, like Bonesplitterz and their lack of rend, they will be tough. But against armies with lots of rend and high damage I dont see a real issue. I think Ironjawz with the rend and high volume of attacks should do fine against them. Then you have monsters like the Maw-Krusha which will swat them away. A Stonehorn on the charge with all their rules could wipe out a unit of 20 Guard on almost just MW output alone. Cant rez when the unit gets wiped right? 🤔Also magic heavy armies should do okay as well...unless Arkhan is present lol 

[Zappgrot]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Against certain match ups, like Bonesplitterz and their lack of rend, they will be tough. But against armies with lots of rend and high damage I dont see a real issue. I think Ironjawz with the rend and high volume of attacks should do fine against them. Then you have monsters like the Maw-Krusha which will swat them away. A Stonehorn on the charge with all their rules could wipe out a unit of 20 Guard on almost just MW output alone. Cant rez when the unit gets wiped right? 🤔Also magic heavy armies should do okay as well...unless Arkhan is present lol 

My iron jaws absolutly wrecked bonereapers.  Mostly because the bonereaper player did notkeep his lines clossed.  But the rend sure helps even more so if they are not playing elite´s Bonereapers seem verry tough but they are kind of slow and their buff ranges whit the exception of spells are kind of short

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Zappgrot said:

My iron jaws absolutly wrecked bonereapers.  Mostly because the bonereaper player did notkeep his lines clossed.  But the rend sure helps even more so if they are not playing elite´s Bonereapers seem verry tough but they are kind of slow and their buff ranges whit the exception of spells are kind of short

Yeah they arent invincible. Hard match ups for certain factions sure. But if an army as simple as charge forward and smash can beat them then there is hope for everyone else lol

[Zappgrot]

9 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Yeah they arent invincible. Hard match ups for certain factions sure. But if an army as simple as charge forward and smash can beat them then there is hope for everyone else lol

😞  I like to think there is a bit more tactics to it then move forward and smash.  Move forward and smash the right stuff? 

[Malakithe]

1 minute ago, Zappgrot said:

😞  I like to think there is a bit more tactics to it then move forward and smash.  Move forward and smash the right stuff? 

Haha okay okay...charge forward screaming, smash into things, break stuff, move to the next unit. Sound about right? Picking the right targets helps yes. And teleporting a block of ardboys messes with people

[Sleboda]

10 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

This thread is an example of a core issue in the community as a whole, the endless complaints about everything which is not your own army, the bias going on in echo chambers, which then also spills into the real world and affects peoples ability to have fun with the game.

To add to that, because you're right, I'll say that people also complain about The New Thing all the time because it's new and they've not learned how to counter it yet. It makes things seem far better than they are.

Then folks play against The New Thing, gain experience (you know, actual on-table, in-game experience ), and everything turns out to be ok.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Sleboda

[Freejack02]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:31 AM, Scurvydog said:

Sequitors have 4+ rerollable saves as well, and get get +1 from a support hero, why are blobs of these guys not steamrolling tournaments?

Because they're 40mm bases with 1" reach and cost 26 points per model (21 with discount), that can't get instantly resurrected? 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Freejack02

[prochuvi]

The +1 save must go away.

 

Also nagash getting every buff of the book must go away also.

 

The stacking feel no pain(or special save) must go away also.

 

Then and only then bonereapers gonna start to be close to balanced

[Sleboda]

We're what, a week in to Bonereapers? I think the overreaction here is nuts.

I mean, can't we at least wait for the initial FAQ before we start the raging?

[Mr Spadge]

I'm just curious....

Have any of the people here complaining about bonereapers actually tried writing a competent list with them?

Like, something that will win a gt more often than not.

I'm curious, since this thread is about them being "hideously overpowered" if anyone has managed such nonsense yet?

They are a tough army to shift, that is slow moving but hits crazy hard.... which sums up fyreslayers as well.. . And fyreslayers dont seem to be dominating the scene so maybe there's more to it?

As others have mentioned, give the book a chance people... it's been a few days 😒