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16 minutes ago, michu said:

So as I already said, don't buy them. They are not for beginners, they are also not for veterans (that are not interested in playing new campaigns). They are for intermediate players that haven't bought neither Tome of Champions 2019 nor warband cards for new warbands yet and want to have those rules in one place.

If they contain only the page version of the card sets, then sure, yeah, I don't need them.

If, on the other hand, there are any new rules or corrections to rules printed elsewhere, then I "need" (as much as any of us "need" toys) them for an accurate, complete, non-conflict/argument generating game with pickups and events.

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23 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

What happened to getting in nailed down prior to release, then working on something new, and maybe revisiting the original item much further down the road? 

In GW's wargaming? Never existed.

23 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

They sell player 1 one experience, and player 2 an equally valid but different experience, and pass the buck of resolving the conflict on to those players, which isn't cool, in my opinion.

It's a conflict only if you make it one. If, in casual game, my opponent tries to force me to play with every optional rule (and I love optional rules and those additional rulebooks, maybe that what makes me positive about those things, I like buying new books) even if I'm beginner that didn't have time to buy them, I'm not sure that I want to play against them.

Edited by michu

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15 minutes ago, michu said:

It's a conflict only if you make it one. If, in casual game, my opponent tries to force me to play with every optional rule (and I love optional rules and those additional rulebooks, maybe that what makes me positive about those things, I like buying new books) even if I'm beginner that didn't have time to buy them, I'm not sure that I want to play against them.

That's kinda my point, right?

The beginner has every right to want to play the basic game.

The other player has every right to want to play with the rules he or she has purchased and learned.

Neither player is wrong (btw, I don't think it's fair to characterize a desire to play one way as an attempt to "force" anything), and because they are told to pretty much figure it out on their own, a conflict is not only created, but encouraged. That's on the manufacturer.

Sure, between buddies in the basement, it's probably (probably!) going to resolve just fine, but in a pickup game? Or when a new (new to the group, but experienced in general) player joins a group?

It's an unnecessary impediment to friendly, smooth interaction.

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1 minute ago, Sleboda said:

Sure, between buddies in the basement, it's probably (probably!) going to resolve just fine, but in a pickup game? Or when a new (new to the group, but experienced in general) player joins a group?

It's an unnecessary impediment to friendly, smooth interaction.

Then that player has to learn something like "expectations management". For me it should work like that - the easiest way to play should win e.g.:

- new player has everything but that group don't? Use the least amount of rules

- group has everything, but new player doesn't? Same thing

-everyone has everything? Then there is no issue. Go play.

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1 hour ago, michu said:

I don't understand that thinking. I believe that you should go easy on players, especially new. Don't flood them with additional rules at the beginning of campaign. Add it slowly. So at first use only core rules. Then later you might add monsters and mercenaries. Then other rules. And even if then buying those books is too much for you then there is another solution! It's not like every player in your group need every book. Create "rules library" - you buy those books for your whole group, you basically share them.

 

Yeah and I don't understand your line of thinking. So we're probably won't get on the same page ;) . But let me try to phrase it in a different way. 

You see it as going easy by not including additional rules. I genuinely don't know what the additional rules are looking from the outside in. So to me it feels going incomplete, as I can't make that call without the first purchases. 

Where is the line between core rules and expansions? I have several Order armies that I would love to play in Warcry. So that makes the GA Order book a core rule right? 
So again, i'm two books in before I can play what I assume is the core game. 
If I also want to be able to play my order factions against the Orcs I collected over the past 6 months especially for Warcry... I need one more book.

Or the interpretation is that the GA books are already an expansion project and only the warcry chaos warbands are available in the core of the game. If so that feels very incomplete to me for a game that has Order, Destruction and Death as options to play as well on it's homepage. 

On a semi-sidenote question: Isn't it the case, that to play the campaigns with the injury system you need the tome of champions?
Because that would be one more thing that I want from the start. I can't imagine playing any campaign twice so I would like the full experience in that from the start as well. But again, I simply don't know that unless i'm conscious enough of the core rules not including everything to research it ahead of time.

Sharing the books is a good idea though 👍

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@michu

Sure, that's a nice idea, but you can't just unilaterally impose what you or I think "ought" to be. We have to deal in reality, and the reality is that both players are 100% entitled to want the experience they prefer, and a large reason that is the case is that the manufacturers are telling them "You are both right, even though your positions - positions we literally sold to you - are in opposition. Sooooo, have fun figuring it out. See ya in 9 months with another change to both your rules!"

Edited by Sleboda
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@Kramer Yes, only Core Rules are main rules (isn't it in the name?). Everything else is an expansion. But you can still use your Order, Destruction and/or Death cards without buying GA books, so I don't see the problem you have with those books.

@Sleboda No, it isn't. It has nothing to do with rules but with people. Because you present it like both players won't agree on something but will be **** to each other. And as I said - not everyone had yet time or money to buy all books and still want to try the game. Opposing players will still be trying to make them use rules from books they don't have? Because that's discouraging.

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2 hours ago, silverstu said:

They haven't mentioned anything about a preview in the Warhammer Community article.. but I'm hoping- might get teasers of WarCry and Underworlds war bands maybe? They might not have mentioned it yet in case it took away from yesterdays preview.

Thank you, some guys here were talking about that day and I dunno.

2 hours ago, Overread said:

I think most are expecting some previews on the 31st for Warhammer day because, well, there's not really much else GW can do right now for the event. They can't run games; they can't run store promotions or such. Heck even though Warhammer World is allowing games once again its very spread out and by booked appointment only; plus its really not the time to encourage people to travel there for the event. 

 

So yeah I figure a recap of the last year's releases and events and some look toward the future would be expected for the event. Perhaps not massive previews but at least something. Heck by that point we will have the Warcry stuff out; we know what's coming for Bloodbowl and Underworld and we know what's in November for AoS fairly well. 

Yes, I understand.

But at least something, maybe a bit more of bloodbowl, the new 40k codex, some about Morathi´s book...

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14 minutes ago, michu said:

Yes, only Core Rules are main rules (isn't it in the name?). Everything else is an expansion. But you can still use your Order, Destruction and/or Death cards without buying GA books, so I don't see the problem you have with those books

So I go at it with your point of view. I’m going to be very dissatisfied when I find out that the core rules don’t include the warbands I want to play. Despite them being advertised on the homepage of the game as playable. 

my problem isn’t the books themselves. It’s the set-up where I buy into an incomplete game. after trying that I have to make the choice of investing more if I like it. Or worse if I want things like permanent injuries, full warband roster I need to make a bigger investment to experience the complete game. 

in the end the problem isn’t the books so much as the communication and spreading all the rules over different publications. I have no issue with monster and mercenaries as it’s super clear it’s an add on expansion. No issues there. 

 

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1 hour ago, michu said:

Sleboda No, it isn't. It has nothing to do with rules but with people. Because you present it like both players won't agree on something but will be **** to each other. And as I said - not everyone had yet time or money to buy all books and still want to try the game. Opposing players will still be trying to make them use rules from books they don't have? Because that's discouraging.

No, you are assuming the hostility, which I am not. Also, to say it has "nothing" to do with the rules is, frankly, factually inaccurate. It is because of the rules that the players are required to resolve a conflict*.

I'm also not saying anyone is "trying to make" people use rules.

If you are entering this discussion with both of those assumptions, assigning views I have not described and do not hold, you are creating a form of straw man, and the discussion will not be productive.

If you can read this without reading into this, it might help:

Player A has only the core rules. Could be a new guy or a veteran. Doesn't matter for the point.

Player B has all the rules. Could be a veteran or a new guy. Doesn't matter for the point.

 

Both players own rules sold by the manufacturer as legitimate. Both players have a preference for which rules they would like to use (not which rules they want to force on the other).

Before they can have a game, they have to have a discussion about which set of equally valid rules, sold to them by the manufacturer, they will agree to use. Neither player is wrong, at all, for wanting to use their preferred, equally valid, rules. The fault lies with the manufacturer who has abdicated responsibility for providing a uniform set of rules for the two players who spent money on them.

 

I'm not saying the players will argue, be mean to each other, try to force things, or anything of the sort. I'm saying they are being put at odds against each other, through no fault of either player, and one or both of them will, by definition, have to play under a set of rules that they would rather not.

 

*Please note that conflict is not inherently a word that means anger, aggression, or hostility. It just means a resolution is needed.

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3 hours ago, michu said:

In my opinion it's the problem with those groups' inflexibility not the rules. Especially when in GHB2018 GW even endorsed houseruling with their own examples.

And TBH do those groups really expect that beginners will have every single book?

I don't understand that thinking. I believe that you should go easy on players, especially new. Don't flood them with additional rules at the beginning of campaign. Add it slowly. So at first use only core rules. Then later you might add monsters and mercenaries. Then other rules. And even if then buying those books is too much for you then there is another solution! It's not like every player in your group need every book. Create "rules library" - you buy those books for your whole group, you basically share them.

Those books don't make Warcry overcomplicated - they are mostly gathering of older rules in one place! With just new campaigns that you don't really need to experience the game. If you have old cards and core book you have everything to fully enjoy the game.

Oh, and last thing - you treat Warcry as only skirmish wargame - but for me (and probably GW) it's more a mix of skirmish wargame and RPG-lite.

As for RPG lite, I thought there was no character improvement in Warcry? That, to me, is key in making it an RPG like experience. Even something small like the companion progression in Rangers of Shadowdeep is still progression.

I now realise the rules are scattered among cards and white dwarves at the moment, so maybe my hope for Warcry was in vain.

I think my wishes for a wargame are incompatible with GW, so I'll just keep to the models.

In short, I like the following in a skirmish game:

Progression for every model

Miniature agnostic

Simplicity

Balance

Comprehensive

This is probably because of where I am in my "maturity" for wargaming. I have not played a lot, so am satisfied with a simpler system, and I hail from RPG's, so like my progression and freedom of models.

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In terms of Warcry and all its add-ons, I can compare it to my time with Kill Team.

I started playing the latest version of Kill Team basically every week from Novemeber 2018 to about March 2020 (thanks Covid).  Because of that duration of playing I essentially became the Kill Team facilitator at my FLGS.  Kill Team has the core rulebook, Elites (which includes subfaction traits and additional units), Commanders (Leaders/HQ units), Arena (a very slightly different game but basically the same)  and the 2020 Annual/White Dwarf for SoB and Daemons ( FAQ/Errata and new factions).

When prospective players approach me to ask what our group uses and what points level we play I tell them that we typically use core + elites at 125 pts. And we tend not to bother with rosters (Kill Team has a sideboard built in) but if that player wants to use one they are free to.  When it comes to teaching games it usually just involves the core rules and 100pt teams.  Our group usually completely skips the Scouting Phase as a matter of it generally being a waste of time (I tell all new players we can include if they what, but I going to take disarm traps which counters the only really useful option).  For brand new, haven't played a miniatures wargame I also turn off stratagem except maybe CP re-rolls for my opponent (so they kinda know they are there) while 'forgetting' I have CP myself.

Against regular players in my Kill Team group I typically expect a game of core + elites at 125pts.  However, I also bring a 200pt Commanders list since some of the players do occasionally enjoy playing that version.  I also suppose it would be possible someone could bring Arena (which does have fundamental rule differences) which I would also not have that much of an issue to play as well.  Well, as long as no player is expecting fully optimized kill teams or hardcore competition from me.  Which is fine.  I don't have much of an issue losing a game of Kill Team in 17minutes.  And yes, I did lose (not concede, I loss) a game that quickly before (stupid Deathwatch😄).  Only once did I have an issue, and that was from a competitive Arena player coming back to regular Kill Team with a skew list that didn't work as well outside of Arena.  The small changes in the rules (and the constant Missouri, i.e. Show Me, of those differences) made the game a huge unfun slog.  Even then, it was less about rules and more about their need to win at the cost of fun (for their opponent and suspect themselves if they didn't win). 

 

For Warcry, I am kinda interested in playing it as I like skirmish games a little more than full army games.  Kill Team has grown a little stale after a few hundred games.  I have the Warcry starter which I bought for to setup another Kill Team board with its terrain and use the cultists in my Slaves to Darkness army.  In fact, I have a most of the Warcry cultists for my S2D.  I don't have any rules save what was in the Warcry starter though.  So potentially the Grand Alliance: Chaos book would be of much use to me.  At the same time, I highly doubt I would pick up GA: Order just for my Lumineth. 

 

Skirmish games are far, far...far more easy to toggle on and off options since it is very easy for the players to bring more models that they would be allowed to field.  I totally get some players getting a little flustered having to shape and craft their force on the fly meet the dimensions of a game once all the options are nailed down.  Especially GW players who seem to want 3/4 game already decided before they start.  However, I have no issue tailor each game to the options each player likes best.  In fact, I kinda like the think-on-your-feet challenge it creates.

I also don't think gaming groups are nearly as fluid as the internet sometimes makes it out to be.  Sure people come and go, but at pace typically less than the rules for GW games change.  I think as long both parties are being actually friendly and willing to compromise, a far better gaming experience is gleamed putting in the things each side likes and taking out the things they don't than sticking with the off-the-shelf version.  Again, chances are by next year there's a good chance that any GW game can be changed enough that it doesn't matter.

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Exactly @Saturmorn Carvilli. For example, my gaming group is doing Kill Team introductory meetings to teach core rules.  We do not force people to buy every single rulebook for that game.

Oh, and I  agree. Scout phase needs redoing. Well, there is Pariah Nexus update (even when I think it will just add new SM and Necron units).

36 minutes ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

At the same time, I highly doubt I would pick up GA: Order just for my Lumineth. 

I agree. Especially as you can still buy digital version of that WD with Lumineth rules.

50 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I thought there was no character improvement in Warcry

There is. But I think only for warbands' champions.

56 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I'm not saying the players will argue, be mean to each other, try to force things, or anything of the sort. I'm saying they are being put at odds against each other, through no fault of either player, and one or both of them will, by definition, have to play under a set of rules that they would rather not.

And I just argue that I do not treat this situations as "being put at odds against each other". We always have different tastes and I don't believe someone would be that opposed to the idea of smaller, simpler game against a beginner (or not beginner). A change of pace can be good.

 

 

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What are we guessing the Catacombs box to be priced at? £80?

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1 minute ago, KingBrodd said:

What are we guessing the Catacombs box to be priced at? £80?

I would sign up for that in a heartbeat. But I’m expecting between 130-150 euros.

 no knowledge to back that up, just gut feeling. Previous box sold out fast. Last two starter boxes are 125 and 130 . For AoS and 40k respectively. And while you get less plastic soldiers, you do get some plastic terrain. 
But hopefully I’m just a bit jaded by the last few releases and it will be a sunnier affair than that 😅

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We typically don't hear of prices until Tuesday or Wednesday when stores generally get pre-order info and thus can price things up. 

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5 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Not to diverge to much, but it's especially awful in 40K where a new $50 codex (+ $50 in supplemental add-ons like cards, etc.) is coming for an army at a faster rate than ever before. I mean, how many versions of Marine rules are being sold and resold over a short time these days? How often is a new edition of the game coming out compared to years ago? And don't get me started on limited edition books that get replaced in short order.

That's the point I was making, too.  We literally had a new Marine codex LAST YEAR, with all the chapter supplements, and it's already trash.  Glad I decided to skip it, especially since I play Templars, and would have had to get a $40 Psychic Awakening book for the Templar rules, which are now a free PDF on the Community site. 

If GW wants to maintain a "living" rules set with publications that have shorter lifespans than a dayfly, that's fine... but then they shouldn't be $40 full-color, hardcover books.  They should be softcover B&W with a color insert at a much cheaper price.  If the rules are this disposable, then the books should be disposable.  I thought we were entering the age of "free online rules" but it turns out that players are practically spending more on rulebooks than they are on models to play these games.  (That's certainly the case with Warcry).

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one thing to consider re things like Warcry, if GW didn't produce new rules for the game whether in White Dwarf or in totally new books or whatever how quickly would the cry go up that "oh this system is dead, GW have abandoned it" etc etc.

Anyway Catacombs is up next week and some new starter sets fro different factions...

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/18/sunday-preview-warcry-goes-underground/

 

 

Screenshot 2020-10-18 at 19.17.06.png

Edited by JPjr
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Lots of goodies on pre order next week! 

The warcry warbands for existing armies are nice, a good way of getting some units for AoS cheaper. 

Looks like clanrats and rat ogres

Thunderers and endrin riggers

Ghouls and crypt fiends 

Brutes and ? 

 

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More of those lovely warband boxes! 

Looks like you get:

Skaven: 10 clanrats, 2 rat ogors, 3 Pack masters and 6 giant rats

KO: 5 thunderers and 3 Endrirrigers/Wardens

Ironjawz: 5 brutes and 5 Ardboyz

FeC: 10 Ghouls and 3 Crypt horrors/flyers

If the price is the same of the last ones, its a easy way to get more models for a little less

 

mv2rE88dvbMzE3HA.jpg

zite1oCOvyEsgaO3.jpg

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The new starter sets are a nice addition; they make the game far more accessible as the intro/small scale game for people who want other armies but don't want to buy into multiple "regular" packs of models. Plus with cards and tokens inside they are an ideal "one buy and go" type purchase. A welcome addition to making Warcry more open to newbies. 

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I was hoping for the catacombs board and terrain to be available separately, hopefuilly that comes along soon!

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1 hour ago, Rob Hawkins said:

[...]
If GW wants to maintain a "living" rules set with publications that have shorter lifespans than a dayfly, that's fine... but then they shouldn't be $40 full-color, hardcover books.  They should be softcover B&W with a color insert at a much cheaper price.  If the rules are this disposable, then the books should be disposable.  I thought we were entering the age of "free online rules" but it turns out that players are practically spending more on rulebooks than they are on models to play these games.  (That's certainly the case with Warcry).

And the interesting thing is: there is already a cheaper, softcover version of most battletomes/codexes... just not in English.

For example: the Italian battletome of Cities of Sigmar is softcover and shorter than the English one: 20 pages are missing because some of the lore doesn't get translated. As a result, the Italian version costs 20€ instead of the 32,5€ that they ask for the English version.

Another example: everything gets translated in the German version of the battletome, but it's still softcover so it costs 25€.

So they might theoretically do a cheaper, softcover version in English too... they just choose not to.

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1 hour ago, Arzalyn said:

More of those lovely warband boxes! 

Looks like you get:

Skaven: 10 clanrats, 2 rat ogors, 3 Pack masters and 6 giant rats

KO: 5 thunderers and 3 Endrirrigers/Wardens

Ironjawz: 5 brutes and 5 Ardboyz

FeC: 10 Ghouls and 3 Crypt horrors/flyers

If the price is the same of the last ones, its a easy way to get more models for a little less

 

mv2rE88dvbMzE3HA.jpg

zite1oCOvyEsgaO3.jpg

There goes my hopes for a warcry rat ogor resculpt😢

Edited by Verminlord
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