The Rumour Thread

[Grungnisson]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

/GrumpyfaceON

 

 

Making dwarf players happy would go against the creed.

[cofaxest]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

/GrumpyfaceON

Why not Hashut Dwarfs vs Aether-Dwarfs for 4.0?

/GrumpyfaceOFF

 

I would prefer Hashut Dwarfs vs United duardins or Valaya Dwarfs but nvm, still will not happens (at least as starter for 4th) But Chaos Duardins as enemy for starter sounds good.

[JerekKruger]

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

/GrumpyfaceON

Why not Hashut Dwarfs vs Aether-Dwarfs for 4.0?

/GrumpyfaceOFF

 

Don't be silly, dwarves aren't Elves, you don't get to have nice things, you have grudges instead.

[EntMan]

46 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:

Don't be silly, dwarves aren't Elves, you don't get to have nice things, you have grudges instead.

Your name is going straight in the book for that!

Spoiler

The lovely lovely book of grudges, that gives endless pleasure...

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by EntMan

[Ogregut]

2 hours ago, Swamp Trogg said:

They may have sold well, but not well enough, since the relaunch of island of blood in early AoS was in fact a reboxing of unsold models printed far earlier. 

 

Futhermore, starter set are not about pleasing an existing fan base: they are all about recruitment. That's why island of blood in 8th edition contributed to the doom of the old world. It did sold quite nicely among the existing player base, but failed to expand it significantly. Notably because none of the model inside was easy really they easy to paint or to sold to people anaware of the game or setting. 

 

That's why Stormcasts doesn't need to even be the most popular faction to justify their presence in a series of starter sets. They just need to be beginner friendly, which they are. Because they need to appeal to young players, to not rebuke their parents (who got the money) and to be recognisable poster boy. And they need to be easy to paint to keeps the new players long enough, to encourage them to keep painting, playing, ans buying. 

With this in mind, pitting religious zealots with a baroque iconography and numerous and detailed models against shadowy demons with fiddly bits as a starter set may please us, but will not help people from hobby center to recruit new players. Ence the fact that I, for one, doesn't not belive in a non Stormcasts starter set, and even more, doesn't believe in a starter set with a ultra detailed adversarie in front of them, but more with something rather simple to apprehend, like Nighthaunts, who can look nice with juste a wash over a base coat. 

 

But i don't want to be all doom and gloom : we're still gonna have our humans and shadowy demons, and probably with a nice army set 😀

What data are you using about island of blood sales? 

I'm not sure I entirely agree with what you say about old starter sets having to just be new player friendly. 

There needs to be a balance between keeping existing players and bringing in new ones. 

I believe they have got the nail on the head lately with this with the limited launch boxes followed by the 3 starter sets. 

I also feel alot of people see new players as just young kids who don't know which end of a paint brush to use. 

I'll argue kids are a lot more switched on today and have a huge amount of information available with online guides, reviews and tutorials that just weren't there when a lot of us were getting into the hobby. 

Also, new players aren't just kids. The lockdown brought a huge amount of returning players and painters and I know when I worked in GW retail I would try and get the parents involved in the hobby and many a dad would end up playing. 

[Snarff]

1 hour ago, cofaxest said:

I would prefer Hashut Dwarfs vs United duardins or Valaya Dwarfs but nvm, still will not happens (at least as starter for 4th) But Chaos Duardins as enemy for starter sounds good.

I'd hate United Duardin. Why can Aelves have Lumineth, Daughters, Idoneth, Sylvaneth and probably sooner rather than later Malerion Aelves and Kurnothi (not even to mention all the Cities Aelves), but all Duardin need to be souped? Just expand each army individually, let them keep their own battletomes and make a Legion of the First Prince-like optional soup rule.

Beastclaw Raiders, Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz have seen absolutely 0 models to expand them designed for AoS since they got souped. Ogor Mawtribes got 2 heroes in total, Orruks just got Kruleboyz which does nothing for Ironjawz or Bonesplitterz only players. They just have to share their tome with yet another faction now, so less lore and fluff and more need for balance around the Orruk soup rather than the individual armies.

There is still so much unexplored design space for both Kharadron and Fyreslayers. Lean into dockworkers for Kharadron, new types of Ships, give them a proper power armor melee unit. Fyreslayers can expand the Zharrgrim Priesthood with Magmadroths, cavalry, or lean into the increasingly more prominent role of women in their society with Magmaqueens, female berserkers. Heck, let Grimnir finally come back just as Morathi ascended to godhood and give us half drake/half duardin, an avatar of Grimnir, etc. Heck, finally place Gotrek's warscroll in our tome since he's closer and closer to a Fyreslayer with each book and he's being promoted as a Fyreslayer on GWs own website.

Not even to mention the complete cultural and aesthetical disconnect between the two. Fyreslayers are religious zealots hellbent on bringing back a shattered god. Kharadron have abandoned the gods entirely. Those aspects are absolutely essential to each faction's individual identity, forcing them together would just muddle that and get rid of any uniqueness. If you soup KO and FS, why not soup Daughters of Khaine and Lumineth while we're at it? They're both Aelf armies after all.

Souping them in a single tome would just rob us of any chances of a proper expansion happening, be a disservice to the lore of both armies. and probably just lead to another Duardin faction being forced in the tome as well without any releases for KO nor FS.

I'm all for optional (broken-realms/seasons-of-war-style) soup rules that makes it possible to run Duardin together, as long as each faction retains their own tome, don't get balanced around the soup and both (eventually) get their proper expansions.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Snarff

[zilberfrid]

On 2/1/2023 at 4:32 AM, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Super into the idea of something new for kroxigors. Even though its in the name, something that looks too much like a real crocodile just feels too corny. Save that for Blood Bowl!

There are some awesome early crocodilifirmes though

[Red Bull]

1 hour ago, Snarff said:

I'd hate United Duardin. Why can Aelves have Lumineth, Daughters, Idoneth, Sylvaneth and probably sooner rather than later Malerion Aelves and Kurnothi (not even to mention all the Cities Aelves), but all Duardin need to be souped?

If Dwarfs get souped, perhaps some of those elves will get souped also? And if Chaos Dwarfs ever come out, I can't imagine them getting thrown in with the other Dwarfs.

If the great soup movement ever happens, you could end up with 2 Dwarf books and 3 Elf ones (not sure about Idoneth). Is that so bad? 

[Grungnisson]

1 minute ago, Red Bull said:

If the great soup movement ever happens, you could end up with 2 Dwarf books and 3 Elf ones (not sure about Idoneth). Is that so bad? 

Yes.

Obviously, there's personal preference and some people might like the idea, while others will be against, but looking at the in-world factors, the way the three current duardin factions are set up they literally have more in common with other Order factions than with each other. Imagine trying to get Oasis back together purely and only on the premise that Noel and Liam are brothers.

[Gotz]

5 hours ago, Swamp Trogg said:

They may have sold well, but not well enough, since the relaunch of island of blood in early AoS was in fact a reboxing of unsold models printed far earlier. 

 

Futhermore, starter set are not about pleasing an existing fan base: they are all about recruitment. That's why island of blood in 8th edition contributed to the doom of the old world. It did sold quite nicely among the existing player base, but failed to expand it significantly. Notably because none of the model inside was easy really they easy to paint or to sold to people anaware of the game or setting. 

 

That's why Stormcasts doesn't need to even be the most popular faction to justify their presence in a series of starter sets. They just need to be beginner friendly, which they are. Because they need to appeal to young players, to not rebuke their parents (who got the money) and to be recognisable poster boy. And they need to be easy to paint to keeps the new players long enough, to encourage them to keep painting, playing, ans buying. 

With this in mind, pitting religious zealots with a baroque iconography and numerous and detailed models against shadowy demons with fiddly bits as a starter set may please us, but will not help people from hobby center to recruit new players. Ence the fact that I, for one, doesn't not belive in a non Stormcasts starter set, and even more, doesn't believe in a starter set with a ultra detailed adversarie in front of them, but more with something rather simple to apprehend, like Nighthaunts, who can look nice with juste a wash over a base coat. 

 

But i don't want to be all doom and gloom : we're still gonna have our humans and shadowy demons, and probably with a nice army set 😀

ooor... they can make it a StormKeep and include a mixed force of Cities and Stormcast on one side

[DeLewko]

6 hours ago, Swamp Trogg said:

With this in mind, pitting religious zealots with a baroque iconography and numerous and detailed models against shadowy demons with fiddly bits as a starter set may please us, but will not help people from hobby center to recruit new players. Ence the fact that I, for one, doesn't not belive in a non Stormcasts starter set, and even more, doesn't believe in a starter set with a ultra detailed adversarie in front of them, but more with something rather simple to apprehend, like Nighthaunts, who can look nice with juste a wash over a base coat. 

This! We can see that with nighthaunt and following Necrons in 40 K same idea. Basecoat from rattlecan + wash and you have a painted army. It shifted a bit when they released contrast paints, I would argue that KruleBoyz are really easy to paint with new contrast paints and if rumors are true next eddition in 40 K  there will be tyranids who also take contrast really well.  

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Red Bull said:

If the great soup movement ever happens, you could end up with 2 Dwarf books and 3 Elf ones (not sure about Idoneth). Is that so bad? 

Without the Great Soup Moment (I like that name), Dwarfs already have 2 books.

[cofaxest]

3 hours ago, Snarff said:

I'd hate United Duardin. Why can Aelves have Lumineth, Daughters, Idoneth, Sylvaneth and probably sooner rather than later Malerion Aelves and Kurnothi (not even to mention all the Cities Aelves), but all Duardin need to be souped? Just expand each army individually, let them keep their own battletomes and make a Legion of the First Prince-like optional soup rule.

Beastclaw Raiders, Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz have seen absolutely 0 models to expand them designed for AoS since they got souped. Ogor Mawtribes got 2 heroes in total, Orruks just got Kruleboyz which does nothing for Ironjawz or Bonesplitterz only players. They just have to share their tome with yet another faction now, so less lore and fluff and more need for balance around the Orruk soup rather than the individual armies.

There is still so much unexplored design space for both Kharadron and Fyreslayers. Lean into dockworkers for Kharadron, new types of Ships, give them a proper power armor melee unit. Fyreslayers can expand the Zharrgrim Priesthood with Magmadroths, cavalry, or lean into the increasingly more prominent role of women in their society with Magmaqueens, female berserkers. Heck, let Grimnir finally come back just as Morathi ascended to godhood and give us half drake/half duardin, an avatar of Grimnir, etc. Heck, finally place Gotrek's warscroll in our tome since he's closer and closer to a Fyreslayer with each book and he's being promoted as a Fyreslayer on GWs own website.

Not even to mention the complete cultural and aesthetical disconnect between the two. Fyreslayers are religious zealots hellbent on bringing back a shattered god. Kharadron have abandoned the gods entirely. Those aspects are absolutely essential to each faction's individual identity, forcing them together would just muddle that and get rid of any uniqueness. If you soup KO and FS, why not soup Daughters of Khaine and Lumineth while we're at it? They're both Aelf armies after all.

Souping them in a single tome would just rob us of any chances of a proper expansion happening, be a disservice to the lore of both armies. and probably just lead to another Duardin faction being forced in the tome as well without any releases for KO nor FS.

I'm all for optional (broken-realms/seasons-of-war-style) soup rules that makes it possible to run Duardin together, as long as each faction retains their own tome, don't get balanced around the soup and both (eventually) get their proper expansions.

How many new models FS get since release? GW even can't do the proper new art for new battletome so I would not expect any big releases for both KO and FS in 4th. My best bet is Valaya returning with new faction.

[Swamp Trogg]

3 hours ago, Ogregut said:

What data are you using about island of blood sales? 

I'm not sure I entirely agree with what you say about old starter sets having to just be new player friendly. 

There needs to be a balance between keeping existing players and bringing in new ones. 

I believe they have got the nail on the head lately with this with the limited launch boxes followed by the 3 starter sets. 

I also feel alot of people see new players as just young kids who don't know which end of a paint brush to use. 

I'll argue kids are a lot more switched on today and have a huge amount of information available with online guides, reviews and tutorials that just weren't there when a lot of us were getting into the hobby. 

Also, new players aren't just kids. The lockdown brought a huge amount of returning players and painters and I know when I worked in GW retail I would try and get the parents involved in the hobby and many a dad would end up playing. 

Unfortunately, you'll have to take my word for granted on the Island of blood matter, since I have not hard evidence to prove it. But the simple fact that old plastic was used when the AoS version was reboxed is vocal enough in my opinion. 

 

It's not about kids being dumb or clumsy, or not having access to a ton of online help. It's about being able to appeal to the greater number, ence the importance to sell something that will speak to everyone. Not all kids will be intimidated by complicated miniatures, but a part of them will be. And since what GW seeks is a common base for all, they adapt their products in that way. 

And Stormcasts have been conceived in order to be able to appeal to the largest panel of people possible, while staying accessible. Whatever anyone's opinion on the subject, they are easy to identify, easy to build, to paint, to apprehend. 

Well, easier than Cities or Umbraneath for what it's worth 😅

 

 

 

[Ogregut]

18 minutes ago, Swamp Trogg said:

Unfortunately, you'll have to take my word for granted on the Island of blood matter, since I have not hard evidence to prove it. But the simple fact that old plastic was used when the AoS version was reboxed is vocal enough in my opinion. 

 

It's not about kids being dumb or clumsy, or not having access to a ton of online help. It's about being able to appeal to the greater number, ence the importance to sell something that will speak to everyone. Not all kids will be intimidated by complicated miniatures, but a part of them will be. And since what GW seeks is a common base for all, they adapt their products in that way. 

And Stormcasts have been conceived in order to be able to appeal to the largest panel of people possible, while staying accessible. Whatever anyone's opinion on the subject, they are easy to identify, easy to build, to paint, to apprehend. 

Well, easier than Cities or Umbraneath for what it's worth 😅

 

 

 

While I actually think you're probably right about island of blood not selling very well seeing as it was towards the end of fantasy, a surplus of stock doesn't always mean poor sales. 

We all know Dominion had a huge surplus yet many independent stores reported it was their best seller of the year. 

You're right about stormcast being designed to have a broad appeal, I was at a tournament this past weekend and a good 20% of armies were stormcast. Hell I have a army of them myself because the new thunder armour ones look awesome! 

[EonChao]

An important thing to remember is that in addition to appealing to kids and people they want to recruit directly to the game, you need to also catch the interest of parents. Space Marines and Stormcast have a distinct heroic/knightly look to them that's harder to capture in other factions that makes the game feel slightly more suitable for kids and grokable for parents. And we've got to that point through years of market research from GW to help them decide what sells best to most people curious about the game.

[Neverchosen]

7 hours ago, Beliman said:

/GrumpyfaceON

Why not Hashut Dwarfs vs Aether-Dwarfs for 4.0?

/GrumpyfaceOFF

 

I think that is because we are in a strange position where if it is Order vs Order the most logical pair up is Lumineth vs Malerion/Umbraneth as they are Light and Dark Binaries with a history of conflict. But it is assumed that if it is a conflict beyond the scope of order it will default to Stormcast as the poster boy faction that directly opposes the enemies of order.

However, Kharadron vs Smiths of Hashut would be a terrific way to break from this kind of narrowed view on the Grand Alliances and concept of a primary heroic force.

Of course the fact that the Era of the Beasts did not kick off with a Seraphon vs Beasts of Chaos starter set with updates to all the Destruction ranges, Skaven and an introduction of Kurnothi, prove I do not understand how Games Workshop handles anything.

Honestly, I would like something entirely unique like Kharadron vs Sylvaneth with an eye towards an environmental conflict. Give us KO cutting down forests and the Sylvaneth striking back.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Neverchosen

[Snarff]

1 hour ago, cofaxest said:

How many new models FS get since release? GW even can't do the proper new art for new battletome so I would not expect any big releases for both KO and FS in 4th. My best bet is Valaya returning with new faction.

How many did Seraphon get since release up until now? Just because it hasn't happened so far doesn't mean it won't or can't.

[Snarff]

2 hours ago, Red Bull said:

If Dwarfs get souped, perhaps some of those elves will get souped also? And if Chaos Dwarfs ever come out, I can't imagine them getting thrown in with the other Dwarfs.

If the great soup movement ever happens, you could end up with 2 Dwarf books and 3 Elf ones (not sure about Idoneth). Is that so bad? 

I'd hate for Aelves to get souped too. Let them be unique. I love the Idoneth, I love the Sylvaneth, doesn't mean I want them to be merged.

[Jator]

 @Swamp Trogg I'm not familiar with the High Elves part of Island of Blood, but the skaven are probably the easiest to build and paint  I've ever had.  And as @Ogregut has said, just because it was overproduced doesn't mean it was a failue.

The only thing I agree with you about Island of Blood is that it didn't expanded the playerbase, but it's unfair to expect it to do. If I need a much bigger inversion to properly play and players are harder than ever to come by, it doesn't matter how tempting a boxset is, most people won't bite.

I hope this doesn't come as a personal attack, I was going to leave it at a confused emoji, but I hate how passive-agresive it feels

Edited February 2, 2023 by Jator

[Ganigumo]

As long as we have a 3 year edition cycle, and army updates that are done through physical media there's a pretty hard barrier to the number of factions that can exist in the game without souping.

[Ragest]

5 hours ago, Snarff said:

I'd hate United Duardin. Why can Aelves have Lumineth, Daughters, Idoneth, Sylvaneth and probably sooner rather than later Malerion Aelves and Kurnothi (not even to mention all the Cities Aelves), but all Duardin need to be souped?

Because of profits

[EntMan]

20 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

I think that is because we are in a strange position where if it is Order vs Order the most logical pair up is Lumineth vs Malerion/Umbraneth as they are Light and Dark Binaries with a history of conflict. But it is assumed that if it is a conflict beyond the scope of order it will default to Stormcast as the poster boy faction that directly opposes the enemies of order.

However, Kharadron vs Smiths of Hashut would be a terrific way to break from this kind of narrowed view on the Grand Alliances and concept of a primary heroic force.

Of course the fact that the Era of the Beasts did not kick off with a Seraphon vs Beasts of Chaos starter set with updates to all the Destruction ranges, Skaven and an introduction of Kurnothi, prove I do not understand how Games Workshop handles anything.

Honestly, I would like something entirely unique like Kharadron vs Sylvaneth with an eye towards an environmental conflict. Give us KO cutting down forests and the Sylvaneth striking back.

I know nothing about GW marketing, but I think either Elves Vs Elves or Dwarves Vs Dwarves are unlikely starter sets, I'd guess GW wants to shout "This is a game where different cool fantasy races fight!" rather than eg. "Here's an Elves game"

Edited February 3, 2023 by EntMan

[cofaxest]

1 hour ago, Snarff said:

How many did Seraphon get since release up until now? Just because it hasn't happened so far doesn't mean it won't or can't.

If you want to wait 9 more years - go on. I'll be more then happy to play united duardin faction. From lore standpoint it's clear that duardins are directed to Khazalid Empire rebuilding. Maybe GW will change their mind but right now the main idea for the future of duardins is unification. And I can't see any indication that GW have any plans to expand KO and/or FS model line.

[Neverchosen]

53 minutes ago, EntMan said:

I know nothing about GW marketing, but I think either Elves Vs Elves or Dwarves Vs Dwarves are unlikely starter sets, I'd guess GW wants to shout "This is a game where different cool fantasy races fight!" rather than eg. "Here's and Elves game"

Games Workshop giving us Unique Armies in starter sets... Then gives us Horus Heresy.