The Rumour Thread

[zilberfrid]

8 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Temples were designed with battalions in mind, then 3rd came, battalions went to narrative and the incoherent coherency rules and the price of some of the most useless units (hurakans, alariths, ballista, ELTHARION) did the rest.  

With Lumineth having a decidedly 2nd edition feel in the warscrolls and having Endless Spells, I wonder how long they were delayed, it would have made more sense to have them arrive before the last year of that edition.

[Rachmani]

5 hours ago, Beliman said:

Btw, @Whitefang has wrote that some warscroll abilities are going to be removed from their warscrolls and moved to their battletome... anyone remember if fyreslayer's warscrolls lost any ability? Sworn Protectors anyone?

I know, it's just wishlist, but it could be really good for an army with so many heroes.

For what it is worth, I speculated about Fyreslayers getting army wide sworn protector some 50 something pages earlier and Whitefang likeed that post.

So I‘d say the chances are bigger than zero.

[Charleston]

GW tends to move some abilities from Warscrolls to the Battletome in general. Hedonites got the exploding 6's move, Nurgle shifted disgustingly resilient. I wouldn't wonder if that happened to nerf units that are play out of faction. I feel like the rules team has serious issues with Chaos Soup, which is weird considering that they pushed it in the meanwhile with coalition rules. 

[Ogregut]

I think what the new tomes do is really give a flavour of that army and plays how it should. 

Stormcast blasting on to the table in lighting bolts and smashing into the enemy, then when they fall exploding back into the heavens leaving ruin in their wake. 

The nurgle book is especially good at this. A slow, overwhelming advance of disgusting and resistant flesh that even the briefest contact can be deadly. 

I haven't used my orruks yet but I'm looking forward to trying out my kruleboyz. 

Are the new tomes uber, super strong? Will they always be top of the "meta"? Are they unbeatable? 

Honestly, does it matter? 

If I wanted to destroy my oppentent in a game everytime, I wouldn't play a tabletop war game that is dependent on dice and has a million moving parts, I would have spent the past 30 years playing chess and becoming a grandmaster. 

[zilberfrid]

17 hours ago, Whitefang said:

Removing special ability from old scrolls and then put them somewhere else is gonna be a normality for 3E

I hope this also comes with a re evaulation on how useful the coalition army ability is. If the things a certain hero or unit could do are now in the faction instead of the warscroll, its addition loses value quickly.

[Charleston]

27 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

Are the new tomes uber, super strong? Will they always be top of the "meta"? Are they unbeatable? 

Honestly, does it matter? 

Well, it does matter. In fact, most complaints about the game are based on imbalance during the battletome release cycle. When half the factions still play dated rules while the other half has their fancy new books that play as designed, there is less fun involved. Especially as historically GW tends to have a slight powercreep in their releases during the edition which leads to terms as "early codex syndrome".

But I fully agree on the fact that the rules for 3.0 so far were a blast and really managed to represent the factions lore in the rules. 

[Gnawdwell]

17 hours ago, HollowHills said:

I'm hoping we see the tides table and some news on forgotten nightmares for Idoneth. High tide is one of the most powerful allegiance abilities that they've ever made. Forgotten nightmares is niche, but with the number of shooting units in the meta also has potential to be very potent.

Im fully expecting an A or S tier tome based on playtesters and competitive teams preparing for summer events.

Who are these elusive playtesters? I would love to follow the ones who playtest aos on social media and see what's on the painting tables. 

[Greybeard86]

10 minutes ago, Gnawdwell said:

Who are these elusive playtesters? I would love to follow the ones who playtest aos on social media and see what's on the painting tables. 

I seem to remember the case of a possible playtester selling chorfs right before they were axed in AoS 2 (?). But maybe I am misremembering. They might indeed provide a lead

[madmac]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/11/range-rotation-is-coming-to-warhammer-40000-this-is-what-it-means-for-you/

It's a 40K announcement, but I think it's not outside possibility that it comes to AoS eventually, so worth noting I think. Basically GW is introducing the concept of range-rotation to 40K for the first time, essentially removing certain (presumably old/poorer selling models, though not all of this batch are resin) from production and only selling them again "at a later date". I don't follow MESB very closely, but my understanding is that things go out of stock for very long periods of time, like several years before being brought back.

[mojojojo101]

5 minutes ago, madmac said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/11/range-rotation-is-coming-to-warhammer-40000-this-is-what-it-means-for-you/

It's a 40K announcement, but I think it's not outside possibility that it comes to AoS eventually, so worth noting I think. Basically GW is introducing the concept of range-rotation to 40K for the first time, essentially removing certain (presumably old/poorer selling models, though not all of this batch are resin) from production and only selling them again "at a later date". I don't follow MESB very closely, but my understanding is that things go out of stock for very long periods of time, like several years before being brought back.

I assume this is a result of a production/storage issue?

Weren't they supposed to have a new production facility online by now?

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Charleston said:

Well, it does matter. In fact, most complaints about the game are based on imbalance during the battletome release cycle. When half the factions still play dated rules while the other half has their fancy new books that play as designed, there is less fun involved. Especially as historically GW tends to have a slight powercreep in their releases during the edition which leads to terms as "early codex syndrome".

But I fully agree on the fact that the rules for 3.0 so far were a blast and really managed to represent the factions lore in the rules. 

Yep this is real. Look at 40k right now. ****** is crazy over there

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Gnawdwell said:

Who are these elusive playtesters? I would love to follow the ones who playtest aos on social media and see what's on the painting tables. 

There are no real 'playtesters'. GW just sends beta copies of stuff to influencers/youtubers who then read it and send it back with their opinions. 

Actual playtesting would involve several weeks of real games being played over and over to find those broken combos or iron out any rules issues. But that doesnt seem to happen.  

[Ogregut]

10 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

There are no real 'playtesters'. GW just sends beta copies of stuff to influencers/youtubers who then read it and send it back with their opinions. 

Actual playtesting would involve several weeks of real games being played over and over to find those broken combos or iron out any rules issues. But that doesnt seem to happen.  

I think the issue is those rules would make out into the world. 

Potato cam pics show some people can't be trusted and we know the wargaming community are like bloodhounds when it comes to sniffing out the slightest bit of information (shipping manafests, breaking down barcode information). 

The more people involved the more chance there is of a leak. 

 

 

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, madmac said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/11/range-rotation-is-coming-to-warhammer-40000-this-is-what-it-means-for-you/

It's a 40K announcement, but I think it's not outside possibility that it comes to AoS eventually, so worth noting I think. Basically GW is introducing the concept of range-rotation to 40K for the first time, essentially removing certain (presumably old/poorer selling models, though not all of this batch are resin) from production and only selling them again "at a later date". I don't follow MESB very closely, but my understanding is that things go out of stock for very long periods of time, like several years before being brought back.

I doubt this comes to aos, everything that would've gone on that list was squatted over the past 6 years.

[Malakithe]

2 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

I think the issue is those rules would make out into the world. 

Potato cam pics show some people can't be trusted and we know the wargaming community are like bloodhounds when it comes to sniffing out the slightest bit of information (shipping manafests, breaking down barcode information). 

The more people involved the more chance there is of a leak. 

 

 

Thats also true...which tightens the net around how many people even see beta rules...which means there is def not any playtesters lol

[Ganigumo]

18 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

There are no real 'playtesters'. GW just sends beta copies of stuff to influencers/youtubers who then read it and send it back with their opinions. 

Actual playtesting would involve several weeks of real games being played over and over to find those broken combos or iron out any rules issues. But that doesnt seem to happen.  

GW using unpaid community members, where some?/many? of whom are content creators who get "paid" in things like early access to product, for playtesting is a toxic dynamic ripe for nepotism, even if none if it is actually happening.

They should just hire, as in give them an employment contract and salary, a dedicated playtesting group. 

I think the biggest problem with the current playtest cycle is that it only has about 1 iteration. They write the rules, throw it to the playtesters, adjust for feedback, and release the book. Ideally playtesters should be involved earlier, and there should be multiple iterations of the playtesting cycle.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

I think the issue is those rules would make out into the world. 

Potato cam pics show some people can't be trusted and we know the wargaming community are like bloodhounds when it comes to sniffing out the slightest bit of information (shipping manafests, breaking down barcode information). 

The more people involved the more chance there is of a leak. 

I don't know, the Magic the Gathering people manage to thoroughly play test their stuff without huge leaks all over the place. I'm sure it could be done if GW was willing to invest enough money into it (that is, actually pay tournament players to play test).

[Ogregut]

7 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I don't know, the Magic the Gathering people manage to thoroughly play test their stuff without huge leaks all over the place. I'm sure it could be done if GW was willing to invest enough money into it (that is, actually pay tournament players to play test).

I don't anything about Magic but isn't there tournaments with big prize money involved? 

Meaning there is incentive to keep everything secret if you're a playtester. 

Also card games are a completely different kettle of fish to tabletop miniature games. 

Card game rules have to be tight as that is the appeal of the game, there isn't the added appeal of painting the cards yourself (could that be a thing, colour your own cards lol). 

As GW say themselves, they are a miniature company first and its those little plastic toys that keep us coming back. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Ogregut

[Ganigumo]

20 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

I don't anything about Magic but isn't there tournaments with big prize money involved? 

Meaning there is incentive to keep everything secret if you're a playtester. 

Also card games are a completely different kettle of fish to tabletop miniature games. 

Card game rules have to be tight as that is the appeal of the game, there isn't the added appeal of painting the cards yourself (could that be a thing, colour your own cards lol). 

As GW say themselves, they are a miniature company first and its those little plastic toys that keep us coming back. 

IIRC MTG playtesters/developers/designers can't compete in events but I could be wrong, not that it matters since winning big MTG events comes down almost exclusively to luck and/or cheating.(spoilering my explanation since its off topic).
 

Spoiler

This isn't an overly negative, viewpoint. Generally at big MTG events a large portion, arguably most, of the players are at a similar skill level when it comes to actually piloting their decks, and unless you're playing a secret unknown OP deck somehow most matchups are in the 40-60% range, with overall winrates being generally 55% or lower, across many rounds of play, often 8+ at bigger events. So you basically need to win 8+ coin flips in a row. The very statistics and rigidity of deck archetypes make winning "honestly" basically all chance, so insider knowledge isn't actually very helpful in winning events anyways. This is why so many people who are consistently in top 8s and such are exposed as cheaters, the statistics alone make repeated placings unlikely unless you're doing something to shift the odds in your favor.

The real benefit MTG designers/playtesters get is insider knowledge of what cards and strategies will be good so they can invest in the secondary market. They also tend to be underpaid so this is essentially their "bonus" as they have no contractual obligation not to invest in it, and WOTC can't acknowledge the secondary market officially, because it makes boosters far too similar to actual gambling (not that it isn't already...)

The real benefit of playtesting warhammer is in the painting meta, after a book drops it often takes a while for armies to hit the table because of the time it takes to paint, but with the insider knowledge you can get that army on the table nearly as soon as the book drops.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

I doubt this comes to aos, everything that would've gone on that list was squatted over the past 6 years.

I am sceptical of that, look at ranges like Freeguild, Skaven and Beasts of Chaos. There are relics in there, and I'm not sure GW is in a mood to remake them.

A LOT was removed over the years, even stuff that was marketed as AoS. This doesn't mean GW is done removing stuff. Things like Endless Spells leaving stores could also mean they will be removed entirely rather quickly.

But the things removed from 40k are just some superfluous space marines, not a great loss honestly.

[Ganigumo]

Just now, zilberfrid said:

I am sceptical of that, look at ranges like Freeguild, Skaven and Beasts of Chaos. There are relics in there, and I'm not sure GW is in a mood to remake them.

A LOT was removed over the years, even stuff that was marketed as AoS. This doesn't mean GW is done removing stuff. Things like Endless Spells leaving stores could also mean they will be removed entirely rather quickly.

But the things removed from 40k are just some superfluous space marines, not a great loss honestly.

They weren't removed from 40k though, which is why I said we aren't getting that. They're going into a rotation, which means they will come back periodically. There's no reason for aos to get that at the moment, since all the stuff that would've been good candidates for a rotation like that was squatted.
We could get more stuff removed as tomes come out (although I think we're past that at this point) but thats a different thing.

[Arzalyn]

23 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

IIRC MTG playtesters/developers/designers can't compete in events but I could be wrong, not that it matters since winning big MTG events comes down almost exclusively to luck and/or cheating.(spoilering my explanation since its off topic).
 

  Hide contents

This isn't an overly negative, viewpoint. Generally at big MTG events a large portion, arguably most, of the players are at a similar skill level when it comes to actually piloting their decks, and unless you're playing a secret unknown OP deck somehow most matchups are in the 40-60% range, with overall winrates being generally 55% or lower, across many rounds of play, often 8+ at bigger events. So you basically need to win 8+ coin flips in a row. The very statistics and rigidity of deck archetypes make winning "honestly" basically all chance, so insider knowledge isn't actually very helpful in winning events anyways. This is why so many people who are consistently in top 8s and such are exposed as cheaters, the statistics alone make repeated placings unlikely unless you're doing something to shift the odds in your favor.

The real benefit MTG designers/playtesters get is insider knowledge of what cards and strategies will be good so they can invest in the secondary market. They also tend to be underpaid so this is essentially their "bonus" as they have no contractual obligation not to invest in it, and WOTC can't acknowledge the secondary market officially, because it makes boosters far too similar to actual gambling (not that it isn't already...)

The real benefit of playtesting warhammer is in the painting meta, after a book drops it often takes a while for armies to hit the table because of the time it takes to paint, but with the insider knowledge you can get that army on the table nearly as soon as the book drops.

As far as I remember, MTG player-tester nowadays are workers at the Wizards rather than tournament players (there are some retired tournament players among them though). They have a team that work with the design team testing the cards for standard (which they used to call the future league) and well the sets by themselves. I didn't check the actual meta, but at least some months ago the meta was pretty bad, with cards banning getting more and more frequent (which can be more of a designers problem than the play testers).

[Ganigumo]

Just now, Arzalyn said:

As far as I remember, MTG player-tester nowadays are workers at the Wizards rather than tournament players (there are some retired tournament players among them though). They have a team that work with the design team testing the cards for standard (which they used to call the future league) and well the sets by themselves. I didn't check the actual meta, but at least some months ago the meta was pretty bad, with cards banning getting more and more frequent (which can be more of a designers problem than the play testers).

MTG has been seemingly leaning into power creep recently as a way to sell more cards, I'm not super tuned in but from what I have heard the increase in power is intentional in an attempt to sell more standard cards to eternal format players, but obviously with an increased power level and a rotating format comes a more volatile meta.
Something they've suffered from though is focusing too much on tournament players in terms of playtesting. Tournament players are a great group to give you an idea of if the format will be balanced (in some sense) but are generally less invested in how the game actually plays, which is what's generally most important to casual players.

[Charleston]

2 hours ago, mojojojo101 said:

I assume this is a result of a production/storage issue?

Weren't they supposed to have a new production facility online by now?

 It's result of product bloat. They have too many old models around and storing and offering them will outcost the profit that they generate at a certain point. I see this as a first step to squatting old marines and some other old kits. We will probably see 1-2 possibilities to buy them, like LotR stuff, and then they will be all gone. 

[sandlemad]

Yeah I think it’s hard to make too many inferences from this range rotation yet, for AoS or even other 40k ranges, as for now it’s targeting the most bloated and redundant range GW has, space marines. No one else has the same back catalogue of random subfaction-specific heroes and character variants, with most AoS model lines being pretty lean or relatively new.

And as has already been brought up there’s the firstborn/primaris thing to take account of too. The thunderstrike/regular stormcast offer an analogous range divide but I guess we’ll get a better feel for this when they announce the next rotation.

Edited February 11, 2022 by sandlemad