AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Carnith]

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

On a more constructive note, the Shardspeaker's ability to give  +1 to wound is in the shooting phase, meaning you can move her first. This is much better than what I thought it was before 

That's huge, I misread it and thought it was in the hero phase. So while it says 9" to throw it on an enemy, it's really 9+6+d6. On average she can run turn 1 on a 18" deployment and grant your seekers and keeper a +1 to wound. I'm thinking two of these in a list is a good spot. 

Also if you dislike double of the same model, the mist weaver saih is a great counts as. 

[Carnith]

Adding on to this, the unit doesn't have to be a hedonite model to get the +1 to wound rolls. She works really well as an ally too. 

[Rivener]

7 minutes ago, Carnith said:

Adding on to this, the unit doesn't have to be a hedonite model to get the +1 to wound rolls. She works really well as an ally too. 

Indeed she does, though I would caution that her bonus to wound is strictly in the combat phase, and only the one, so you do not “double dip” in your opponents combat phase as you can with many other buffs/debuffs.

[Carnith]

that is true, but makes for a good alpha. They place a big monster on the line, you can get some good attacks into it. Slickblades hitting 3/2 is really good.

[Neffelo]

I was really excited to jump into this with how amazing the models look, but with the rules the way they are, I think I'm going to sit back and see what kind of builds emerge over the next few months, and probably pick up from there, at least on the mortal side. 

[Panacea]

I am eagerly awaiting the new battletome and the start of my first chaos army. In the meantime, I have been enjoying reading the great discussion here and theorycrafted a bit. Granted, I started this hobby in the middle of a pandemic so I have yet to play a game so this could be completely of the rails, but I have been having fun with it nonetheless.

I was thinking about allies that I haven’t seen discussed here that could be useful and I was wondering what your thoughts are about these units.

Plague Priest: I have seen some discussion about using Plague Censer Bearers to generate depravity, but what about this guy? He has the same 3” AoE mortal wound to each unit at a 4+, but he also can chant two prayers that can help cause some damage.

Great Unclean One: I don’t know the points for this guy but maybe he could be a fun way to generate DP and soak damage? He can use the Bileblade to cause 1 wound to himself when either casting or dispelling, and his spell damages everything in a 14” line, friend or foe.

The Glottkin: Again, I don’t know his points, but he seems tanky enough, but I was mostly thinking of his spell Fleshy Abundance. It adds 1 wound to the models of a friendly unit within 14” until the next turn. 30 summoned 2W Daemonettes seems pretty tasty. I guess the phases don’t line up too well though, with spellcasting before the summoning, but maybe it could work? Or maybe just start with one big unit and charge headlong into the enemy to tie them up in the beginning of the game? Or is too much of a one-trick pony?

Also, is the Exalted Greater Demon of Slaanesh not playable? His command ability Exalted Excess of Violence is what I guess the old CA KoS had and which seem to be missed.

[Cambot1231]

Was very pumped to go in on this release.  Love the aesthetics was a little hesitant with how detailed the models are and the time needed to paint properly.  But without effective rules and price jump out of pocket its a no go. Maybe we'll see what the second hand market looks like in half a year and an already rumored new battletome coming next year.

[Enoby]

7 minutes ago, Cambot1231 said:

Was very pumped to go in on this release.  Love the aesthetics was a little hesitant with how detailed the models are and the time needed to paint properly.  But without effective rules and price jump out of pocket its a no go. Maybe we'll see what the second hand market looks like in half a year and an already rumored new battletome coming next year.

While we can't do much about the price (that said there are some 30% off deals atm at independent shops), I'd say give the battletome a spin with proxies and TTS before deciding it's a dud  a lot of people have surprised themselves when actually trying the battletome and finding it enjoyable. If you don't like it, nothing lost; but if you would have liked it and you didn't try it, might be a shame. 

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, Carnith said:

That's huge, I misread it and thought it was in the hero phase. So while it says 9" to throw it on an enemy, it's really 9+6+d6. On average she can run turn 1 on a 18" deployment and grant your seekers and keeper a +1 to wound. I'm thinking two of these in a list is a good spot. 

Also if you dislike double of the same model, the mist weaver saih is a great counts as. 

I think the biggest problem with this is going to be consistency. First you have to roll a 4+ to run to get in range and then you need to roll a 3+ to trigger the ability. You could blow a command point to fix the run roll if it goes bad, but I've failed more than enough prayer rolls on the warshrine, especially on crucial turns, to know that you can't trust a 3+. Plus you have to commit the Shardspeaker to being more than half way across the board and within 9" of a unit that's worth alpha striking (usually meaning it's pretty dangerous). If it fails your squishy wizard is mega dead, and even if it succeeds you're probably going to lose them to the rest of the army. One shot at a 3+ to only cause +1 to wound just doesn't seem worth 150 points to me. I'm sure there are ways to make them work but I highly doubt the alpha strike is going to come up more than 1 in 20 games.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Grimrock

[Enoby]

52 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I think the biggest problem with this is going to be consistency. First you have to roll a 4+ to run to get in range and then you need to roll a 3+ to trigger the ability. You could blow a command point to fix the run roll if it goes bad, but I've failed more than enough prayer rolls on the warshrine, especially on crucial turns, to know that you can't trust a 3+. Plus you have to commit the Shardspeaker to being more than half way across the board and within 9" of a unit that's worth alpha striking (usually meaning it's pretty dangerous). If it fails your squishy wizard is mega dead, and even if it succeeds you're probably going to lose them to the rest of the army. One shot at a 3+ to only cause +1 to wound just doesn't seem worth 150 points to me. I'm sure there are ways to make them work but I highly doubt the alpha strike is going to come up more than 1 in 20 games.

I think she could probably come down in points, and a strategy can't be based around her, but it's helpful to think of her 3+ as an mini-prayer. I think I'll be taking one of her in my lists - or at least usually 

I've seen more and more battle reports come out from people testing on TTS (or the lucky few who got models early), and thankfully most people have had very fun experiences with the new rules and have performed pretty well against a variety of armies. While the general negative tone over some groups about the battletome got be a bit worried, from reading actual played experience it seems like a good book with only points changes needed to make it great. 

It's a good sign when most people who have played using the new rules like the book, and most people who are unsure haven't tried it yet. That's not to say everyone will like it when trying it, but it's a good sign 

[Fictional]

If I was to start collecting Hedonites today, what's my best value between 2x Shadow and Pain halves or 1x Shadow and Pain and a start collecting?

 

 

[Enoby]

Just now, Fictional said:

If I was to start collecting Hedonites today, what's my best value between 2x Shadow and Pain halves or 1x Shadow and Pain and a start collecting?

 

 

Do you like either side more than the other? If not, I'd recommend Shadow and Pain and the Start Collecting - you'll get a greater variety of units and the exalted chariot which is a really neat unit (I've heard a lot of good things about it from people who've tested it) 

[umpac]

3 minutes ago, Fictional said:

If I was to start collecting Hedonites today, what's my best value between 2x Shadow and Pain halves or 1x Shadow and Pain and a start collecting?

Id say S&P + SC for sure. With double S&P you get too many hellstriders and you don't need double lord of pains. It depends on how you want to build your list obviously, but for "general purpose" the SC variation is the way to go.

[Feii]

3 hours ago, Neffelo said:

I was really excited to jump into this with how amazing the models look, but with the rules the way they are, I think I'm going to sit back and see what kind of builds emerge over the next few months, and probably pick up from there, at least on the mortal side. 

on the same boat, when the rules were sppoiled I went "well, let us wait 2 years for another battletome/AoS 3 supplements/WD articles with new rules and mechanics because this is one of the most boring and uninspiring army ruleset/datasheats release in the AoS for a new army maybe ever. (and for S tier level of sculpts)   

[Klamm]

3 minutes ago, Feii said:

on the same boat, when the rules were sppoiled I went "well, let us wait 2 years for another battletome/AoS 3 supplements/WD articles with new rules and mechanics because this is one of the most boring and uninspiring army ruleset/datasheats release in the AoS for a new army maybe ever. (and for S tier level of sculpts)   

Look on the bright side, Beasts of Chaos are due a new book and the Slaangor warscroll is so disappointing they HAVE to redo it right haha riiiight?

 

[Overread]

1 hour ago, Fictional said:

If I was to start collecting Hedonites today, what's my best value between 2x Shadow and Pain halves or 1x Shadow and Pain and a start collecting?

Both are good value, the only thing that might push me to day 2 sets of Shadow and Pain now is purely because its a limited production run discount box so once the stock is gone, its gone. Nothing in the set is unique, but you won't likely see that discounted price again. Of course Slaanesh might well get a Christmas box one day which would have big discounts, however there is no guarantee as to what might be in such a box. 

 

That said hellstriders haven't left the new book in the best shape; whilst the Lord of Pain is good but not outstanding and the Chariot kit you can get elsewhere at good discount (eg the getting started set which you've already noted). So don't feel like you're leaving out potential. 

 

Indeed if you want the best potential then I'd agree, Shadow and Pain and Getting Started set. 

[Gistradagis]

2 hours ago, Fictional said:

If I was to start collecting Hedonites today, what's my best value between 2x Shadow and Pain halves or 1x Shadow and Pain and a start collecting?

 

 

It's also worth adding that the new Hedonites want you to have a TON of daemons to summon practically every single turn, so you will need many daemons (meaning the SC and more).

[Enoby]

Belongs to @trident.and.true.hobbies on Instagram - but wow! The marble looks great and it helps give us a perspective on size

[Rors]

I have this horrible feeling that when played correctly, this book will be very pretty much dead centre of mid tier (in my opinion this is actually a good thing, and it's books like DoK that have the ballance way off - although for hedonites this seems more of a coincidence than something intended as the warscrolls, costs and abilities don't seems coherent), BUT out of the experiments with depravity, someone will find a S tier jank list that has zero narrative sense and is power gamed. The problem then becomes that any other hedonite list taken to a competitive scene will be intentionally weaker. While people are talking about a keeper or 30 demonettes for 12 depravity, I think someone will probably write a list that easily does say 9-10 every turn while also being able to pay the game and it'll be enough to break the ballance with just too much summoning as it'll be a chariot t1, chariot t2, keeper or demonettes on t3, sometimes better depending on rolls. That alone is probably enough break the points ballance of the game.

[TimeToWaste85]

22 minutes ago, Rors said:

I have this horrible feeling that when played correctly, this book will be very pretty much dead centre of mid tier (in my opinion this is actually a good thing, and it's books like DoK that have the ballance way off - although for hedonites this seems more of a coincidence than something intended as the warscrolls, costs and abilities don't seems coherent), BUT out of the experiments with depravity, someone will find a S tier jank list that has zero narrative sense and is power gamed. The problem then becomes that any other hedonite list taken to a competitive scene will be intentionally weaker. While people are talking about a keeper or 30 demonettes for 12 depravity, I think someone will probably write a list that easily does say 9-10 every turn while also being able to pay the game and it'll be enough to break the ballance with just too much summoning as it'll be a chariot t1, chariot t2, keeper or demonettes on t3, sometimes better depending on rolls. That alone is probably enough break the points ballance of the game.

Depending on how the board lays out, a mesmerizing mirror and Spellportal/cacophony from a keeper can do a LOT of first turn damage and generate a lot of DP. I don’t even have the book yet and saw that and I plan on doing it. Sigvald outflanking as an invader is likely as another option. 

[Yoid]

5 hours ago, Panacea said:

Also, is the Exalted Greater Demon of Slaanesh not playable? His command ability Exalted Excess of Violence is what I guess the old CA KoS had and which seem to be missed.

Exalted Greater Daemon of Slaanesh warscroll is outdated. With the release of our previous Battletome it was updated to the Soulfeaster Keeper of Secrets warscroll, wich is simply a way worst version of the Keeper of Secrets (It is a Keeper of Secrets with and additional not worth extra rule and no CA at all)

In fact the Soulfeaster KoS is probably no longer legal, as her extra rule was something similar to absorbing DP trough the tendrils. I didn't check if the points where updated with the new Battletome, but if not, she es gonna be way overcosted compared to the new Keeper of Secrets.

3 hours ago, Fictional said:

If I was to start collecting Hedonites today, what's my best value between 2x Shadow and Pain halves or 1x Shadow and Pain and a start collecting?

It depends if you want to start an expensive competitive army or a cheap casual one. I know it wasn't an option in you post, but i would actually recomend 2x Start Collecting boxes instead.

Shadow and Pain give you 10xHellstriders, 10xDaemonettes 1xLord of Pain and 1xChariot kit (That can be built as a Chariot, a Hellflayer, a Bladebringer on Chariot or a Bladebringer on Hellflayer). Hellstriders, Chariots and Hellflayers (And their respective Bladebringers) are in a really bad spot right now. Lord of Pain only buff mortals, and without any meaningful motal you will struggle to make his high point cost worth in any list. So the best Deal of the box is the Daemonettes. Should be pointed that buying a Lord of Pain alone is extremely painful for the wallet on any regular human being, so adquiring it trou this box make your mind more pleasent in a way, as he come alongside a lot more of plastic. If you really want that model, this is the better deal.

A Start Collecting give you 5xSeekers 10xDaemonettes and 2xChariot kit (That can be built as 2xChariots, 2xHellflayers, 1xChariot+1xHellflayer or 1xExalted Chariot [And also 2xBladebringers of any lesser kind or 1xBladebringer on Exalted Chariot]) More so, the Exalted Chariot  don't use all the crew that would be required to build 2xChariots/Hellflayers and come with an extra Herald head (Since you choose between 2xBladebringers on regular Chariot or 1xBladebringer on Exalted) That mean if you build the Exalted Chariot you also get a free Viceleader (You may need to get an extra 25mm base tho). This is what most people usually forget about the Start Collecting Daemons of Slaanesh box that make it such a great deal. Seekers are currently not as bad as Hellstriders and can be summon later in the game if they die, Bladebringers and Heralds buff your whole army (a small buff tho) and can play around the Slaanesh Spell Lore to give more variety and fun, they can also locus wich Lord of Pain cannot. As before, Daemonettes are a great deal.

If your idea of starting a Slaanesh army with two boxes is to play 1000pts games for a really long time, i recomend you to buy 2 Start Collecting, you will have 10x Seekers 20xDaemonettes 2xExalted Chariots (That can be played as Bladebringers on Exalted Chariots) 2xViceleaders. You will be able to play the game casually with your friends and everything will have some degree of synergy, also every model will be summonable, so you can simply resummon the units that die without the need of investing in extra models. This collection can be easily expanded later in the future with 2boxes of mortals or 1Keeper of Secrets.

If you are planing to start fast and climb to 2000pts quickly and jump to the competitive list-building instead of playing with just two boxes, then the Shadow and Pain may be a better deal. The thing is what Shadow and Pain offer is a bunch of tools that don't really play well within themselfs and are better to support other pieces of the army individually, while the Start Collecting give you a functional squad of daemons that work well within themselfs.

[BaronBanana]

Here's a list I thought of that might not be *too* terrible

Godseekers

Glutos - General

-Battle Rapture

 

Sigvald

 

2x10 Symbaresh Twinsouls

3x11 Blissbarb Archers

 

Chronomatic Cogs

Geminids

Soulsnare Shackles

 

Is one wizard enough for three Endless Spells or should Sigvald be broken down into one Shardspeaker and one StD Chaos Sorcerer Lord of Slaanesh?

Edited February 18, 2021 by BaronBanana

[Overread]

7 hours ago, Panacea said:

Also, is the Exalted Greater Demon of Slaanesh not playable? His command ability Exalted Excess of Violence is what I guess the old CA KoS had and which seem to be missed.

GW/Community team also seem to forget that the FW model exists half the time I've seen them do articles on exalted greater demons and not mention the FW models.

That said it is a bonus of the new plastic models, they are about the same size as the FW variations now (in fact the new unclean one is a bit bigger than the old "huge" resin one). So even if the "exalted" form and rules aren't as good or if they even vanish outright; you can still use it as another regular keeper. 

 

And I REALLY must get one some day, I keep talking about it and going for other things instead. 

[Poryague]

Looking at both the dok and HoS. The difference is insane. DoK is just win. The disparity here makes no sense you can look at both books and it's like they didn't bother looking at the other books. This disparity happens way to often.

[Drazhoath]

2 hours ago, BaronBanana said:

Here's a list I thought of that might not be *too* terrible

Godseekers

Glutos - General

-Speed-chaser

-Bindings of Slaanesh

-Battlerapture

 

Sigvald

 

2x10 Symbaresh Twinsouls

3x11 Blissbarb Archers

 

Chronomatic Cogs

Geminids

Soulsnare Shackles

 

Is one wizard enough for three Endless Spells or should Sigvald be broken down into one Shardspeaker and one StD Chaos Sorcerer Lord of Slaanesh?

You cant give Glutos any Traits or artefacts because he is a special character.