Concerns with the development of AOS 2

[EMMachine]

2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Oh my goodness I was half right, they're making movement trays for 40k!

What has this world come to! 😱

 

59 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Games of Epic in 40K scale? Yes, please!

Hm ... 40k had apocalypse since 4. Edition and never where Movement Trays really needed. Okay, such 5 model trays like those made by third party could be nice in some situations, when playing a mass army.

[Turin Turambar]

2 hours ago, EMMachine said:

 

Hm ... 40k had apocalypse since 4. Edition and never where Movement Trays really needed. Okay, such 5 model trays like those made by third party could be nice in some situations, when playing a mass army.

1

I think he means the parallels to epic 40k having large units, and new apocalypse having units larger then squads

[Skabnoze]

18 hours ago, froo said:

Metal is less bouncy than plastic! Duh...

But metal teeth are sharper than plastic.

[Gecktron]

On 3/26/2019 at 11:30 PM, Inquisitorsz said:

As much as I like the simplified weapon/unit profiles, and having all the relevant rules on the one warscroll.... I do still like the idea of having some more generic rules like WFB used to have. Strike First, Killing Blow, Flammable etc.... 
Yes you had to dig through the rulebook to find them, but there weren't really that many. 

Now we have every single type of shield doing something different. It adds nice variety but also means the warscrolls are getting huge and bloated.  
Check out the Plague Monks warscroll as a perfect example. Yes it still fits on one card (unlike some characters) but the book keeping for that unit is crazy.  So many different dice rolls and different weapon profiles and different ability triggers.  

I feel like they've moved far beyond the simplified design and are starting to dip into "bloat" territory.  
It's tough for opponents now because instead of saying "my guys have these 3 rules and this stat line" you now have to read every warscroll to know what your opponent's troops do. 

Having general rules like "unmodified 6" or "wholly within" would allow for quicker, easier and wider updates without having to go through and individually update every warscroll and battletome. Maybe it's not that simple, but the "wholly within" part is a great example where the newer armies have a much harder time buffing their units.  
I guess it's not enough of a difficulty because most new armies are stronger than the old ones, but you get some cases like nighthaunt and gloomspite where they rely on those buffs more than others and suffer because of it. 

Oh no no no. This stuff should stay in the past. 

Universal special rules contributed so much to making old fantasy or even 40K so slow. 

Referencing special in the big book was really annoying. It also required a lot of work arounds to give units special rules that deviated from the norm. Especially the old Skitarii Codex suffered from that. 

This may reduce the lenght of some warscrolls but it will not make it easier to understand what a unit does. Because, speaking from experience, people will never know every special rule. 

 

Sorry for the rant but this is some of the things I really enjoy in AoS and 8th edition 40K after playing since 2008. 

[Riavan]

All the spells and realm quirks and stuff need to be heavily culled.  Just making the game needlessly complicated

[Overread]

7 minutes ago, Riavan said:

All the spells and realm quirks and stuff need to be heavily culled.  Just making the game needlessly complicated

You can cull them very fast - "hey lets play a game, but lets leave out the realm stuff ok" 

Though I do agree they can overcomplicate matters; then again realm spell lores do make taking allied mages more viable since they can get access to more than their warscroll spells. For armies that might not have native mages and are taking allies this can be important. 

[VBS]

13 hours ago, Gecktron said:

Oh no no no. This stuff should stay in the past. 

Universal special rules contributed so much to making old fantasy or even 40K so slow. 

Referencing special in the big book was really annoying. It also required a lot of work arounds to give units special rules that deviated from the norm. Especially the old Skitarii Codex suffered from that. 

This may reduce the lenght of some warscrolls but it will not make it easier to understand what a unit does. Because, speaking from experience, people will never know every special rule. 

Tbh, it depends how you implement such universal rules.

If it's way too bloated or has too many little exceptions (40k 7th...?), of course it is not practical.

You can also do it in a much more streamlined and simple way (WHF 6th or KoW). Equipment had universal application and the amount of special rules fitted in 2-3 pages. Units also had less rules, which helped. Extremely easy to remember and cuts a lot of the rule-checking. Games are faster for both compared to AoS, for a reason.

I like the later, but a middle ground would probably be a sweet spot to keep the "uniqueness" of gameplay. I'm sure something along the lines is reasonable to cut down on the sometimes unecessarily long rules that affect AoS.

[Arkiham]

aos when launched was touted as easy to pick up an play using all the rules. 

 

lets look at it now

if you want to play a game against someone in a club

youll need

• your battletome
•  the faqs,
• maglin sorcery,
• decide if your using realm rules,
• GHB
• an now this new vault book.
• oh and your army
• back up units as summoning. 

 

entry level into AoS seems to be getting awfully high  

[King Taloren]

17 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

aos when launched was touted as easy to pick up an play using all the rules. 

 

lets look at it now

if you want to play a game against someone in a club

youll need

• your battletome
•  the faqs,
• maglin sorcery,
• decide if your using realm rules,
• GHB
• an now this new vault book.
• oh and your army
• back up units as summoning. 

 

entry level into AoS seems to be getting awfully high  

That heavily depends on what you consider entry level. If you want to play competitive 2000 pats right off the bat then sure. 

But even Games Workshop has stated that all you need for a game is the core rules, models and their warscrolls. Everything else is optional. Even allegiance abilities are completely optional.

 

You don’t have to have everything to play a game and never have. 

[Overread]

2 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

aos when launched was touted as easy to pick up an play using all the rules. 

 

lets look at it now

if you want to play a game against someone in a club

youll need

• your battletome
•  the faqs,
• maglin sorcery,
• decide if your using realm rules,
• GHB
• an now this new vault book.
• oh and your army
• back up units as summoning. 

 

entry level into AoS seems to be getting awfully high  

At Launch AoS was touted as a boutique model line where rules were basically an optional component. Furthermore the rules that we did have were jovial in nature - "if you have a beard get +1 to attack" kind of things. It was very easy to get into as there were almost no restrictions on what you could take; no real firm rules etc... Yes you could pick AoS up back then super easy, but there was no "serious" mode at all in the game. 

In fact the lack of a points structure and such actually was detrimental for a greater portion of players. 

See the thing is you can run AoS as it was at launch right now - you can have jovial rules and do fun stuff and throw down models without points right now today. You can do it all if you agree with your opponent. Sure its not matched-play standard, but its possible to do it. The existence of matched-play rules doesn't stop this. But back then the lack of formal rules did stop the non-jovial players joining in. 

 

 

 

As of today you can most certainly play AoS with full matched play, however you don't always need as much as people think you need.

•  Core rules - remembering that you can print off the 8 or so pages off the GW store or you can ebay a copy of the rules from one of the many duel sets that GW releases. 
• Army Battletome - you may require the GHB to adjust points or for one page of addendum rules if you've got a Battletome, but by and large you don't need it on the day, most of the changes are just points.
• Generals Handbook - mandatory only if your army rules are in there. 
• Malign Sorcery - if you choose to use realm rules then you need this, however most of it is army construction reference. Equipment or one or two spells. The actual book isn't needed at all if you decide not to use realm rules. The Endless spell cards you might well need if you're using them, but the cards take up very little room (evne less since you're likely only using one or two of them at a time
• FAQ/Errata documents for the above - yeah its a pain but lets be realistic. Most of the Errata are quite short and the FAQ isn't always needed as its not changing rules but mostly just clarifying them. In the end FAQ and Errata are documents players ASK for. We can't complain that GW gives them to us because most prefer that errors get corrected and common questions answered. You can also game without them if you wish. 
• Your army - well you kinda always need that for an army game along with any summoned units. 
• Forbidden Powers - much like Malign Sorcery the endless spells/terrain will likely come with warscroll cards so you can leave the book at home; and the book will likely just outline new powers/army building elements that you can, again, choose to use or not. 

 

Thing is the last part is a red herring to complain about. See if you want a skirmish game there are skirmish rules (bring the white dwarf issue) where you can bring less models. Or you can play a battleplan that favours smaller armies; or you can play Shadspire; or the upcoming Warcry. Ergo there are multiple ways now to play with far fewer models on the table. There were smaller scale versions in the Old World but they weren't their own product; they weren't marketed heavily either.

So right now you've got open play (akin to AoS at launch if you want); you've got narrative and you've got matched play. You've also got 3 different skirmish scale games to play with. AoS is the game you and your club make of it. If you want it full matched play and everything then yes you've got to bring more with you; if you want it super light and casual then you can do that too! 

Also Id' wager that in weight and size you're probably "required" to bring less in weight than you used too back when you had to bring the big rule book and battletome because the rules were more detailed and lengthly and filled the big-rulebook. 

[Dead Scribe]

Thing is the default conversation in any topic related to AOS or even 40k is matched play.

[Overread]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

Thing is the default conversation in any topic related to AOS or even 40k is matched play.

Online yes because it presents known common ground that is easy to pick up and chat about. It's also the games default mode; the mode where its supposed to work the best.

 

Open play is very variable depending on the situation. You can very much talk about it, but it requires more effort to explain how you are playing it. Ergo what rules are you using/not using = what is the overal style and structure of the game etc... Basically its harder to talk about because most are not willing to spend the time typing out all the intricate elements of their local open play scene. So things default to the easy and universally understood matched play. 

[Gecktron]

5 hours ago, Arkiham said:

aos when launched was touted as easy to pick up an play using all the rules. 

lets look at it now

if you want to play a game against someone in a club

youll need

• your battletome
•  the faqs,
• maglin sorcery,
• decide if your using realm rules,
• GHB
• an now this new vault book.
• oh and your army
• back up units as summoning. 

 

entry level into AoS seems to be getting awfully high  

That list can be cut down by quite a bit. Just use the AoS App. You get the most up to date war scrolls (including FAQs), endless spells, core rules. So you only need your battletome for allegiance abilities (which most of the time, you know from the top of your head) and your miniatures.  

Or just print these things out if you dont have a phone. 

Calling this "entry level" is also a bit misleading. Entry level isn't 2000 points match play everything goes. Entry level can be something like 500 points core rules only. 

Thing is, you don't need all this stuff. Some people want additional levels of stuff so GW provides. But they dont force you to use it. The game is pretty modular and you can (if you dont play exclusively pick-up games) tailor the game to your likings.

My local group for example just doesnt use realm rules, spells, artifacts or endless spells and our games haven't changed much from back when the first Handbook came out. 

[JackStreicher]

I guess I‘ll write a „Instant Game App“ which already creates the game for you, so you don‘t have to search everything in each and every book 🤔

[amysrevenge]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 7:41 AM, Arkiham said:

aos when launched was touted as easy to pick up an play using all the rules. 

 

lets look at it now

if you want to play a game against someone in a club

youll need

• your battletome
•  the faqs,
• maglin sorcery,
• decide if your using realm rules,
• GHB
• an now this new vault book.
• oh and your army
• back up units as summoning. 

 

entry level into AoS seems to be getting awfully high  

Sort of true.

 

The last...  10 or so games I've played at the club I've had

• Army/dice/tokens/markers duh
• The My Battle tab of the app on my phone (with purchased allegiance abilities) with my units pre-loaded
• A quick look at the GHB in my phone for the battle plan
• Nothing else?  Definitely no books, as I don't own any paper books.  I have printouts of the realm rules in a binder that I bring along just in case, but we haven't been using realm rules very much at my club (and while I'm sad about that in theory, in practice I don't really feel like anything is missing when we don't use them)

I can get away with this because I've had access to other books in the past, and to the collected wisdom of this community.  A new person would not have that privilege.

[Overread]

Aye but new people always need introducing and you build the game up with layers. You don't throw the FAQ and Errata and the endless spells and the expansions at them in their first games. Heck all they need right then should be the core rules and their Battletome (assuming GW has made one for their army). You start there and you probably start at 500 points or 1K depending on how much they have to hand. Heck your very first games are likely one or two units only just getting the person used to how the turn sequence plays out and how to move stuff around and play the game mechanically without tactics and such. 

 

Then layer by layer you add more stuff. Heck look at Malign Sorcery - most of it is just equipment choices; spell lists and Endless Spells. So its like buying new models - once they are used to that from the Battletome then its not much to add ontop of what they already know. 

[JackStreicher]

I wrote a small Android App which  makes the game preparation process a little shorter.

I am not sure in which topic people complained that it was a hassle to prepare a game, I just figured this one might be okay with it.

The Placeholder should contain an image of the deployment map, which I cannot add due to © GW. 

I might soon open a blog post in which you can get the apk.

[azdimy]

I feel the new added beginning and end of combat phase subsequences within the combat phase add unnecessary complexity to the game. Erratas and revised warscrolls coming out with abilities to strike first or give alway strike last looks  to me a s a reaction to the fec grizzlegore release that can easily create negative play experience for casual players.

Always Strike First and Always Strike Last was big in the wfb days and I feel this is the direction AOS is going and I have to say this is not something I m looking forward to. There was definitely some haters of the ASF elves back in the day and I feel this is coming back for anything that breaks the standard rules

[Ashendant]

I do have some concerns on the new lore maps. Better than the old ones, but still have a few issues, which I mentioned in the Age of Sigmar RPG Reddit.

[123lac]

Not sure how I feel about every army getting terrain. Some of the terrain and endless spells look terrible, as if they were rushed out the door because every army must have these things now. It's a weird design decision to me.

[King Taloren]

3 hours ago, azdimy said:

I feel the new added beginning and end of combat phase subsequences within the combat phase add unnecessary complexity to the game. Erratas and revised warscrolls coming out with abilities to strike first or give alway strike last looks  to me a s a reaction to the fec grizzlegore release that can easily create negative play experience for casual players.

 

That isn’t really a new thing that GW brought up. It’s been there the whole time with beginning and end of phase not just in the combat phase but hero, movement, charge, shooting, battleshock. The ruling was to clear up all about who goes first in using their abilities when you have “at the start of the XXXXX Phase you may....” and the “at the end of the XXXXX Phase”

The only thing GW has done is clarify exactly how things that take place at the beginning and end of each phase interact with other rules and abilities that also take place in the exact same timeframe. This isn’t just the combat phase it was an explanation of all phases. It just happens that the combat phase tends to have more of these cross opponent interactions than any of the others.

And they also clarified what happens when you hit a unit with conflicting rules from spells and abilities. 

As for the Strike first and strike last there is only one faction that all units can strike first on a single battle round. And anything else is a single model in the other factions with a similar ability. Even Gristlegore is just the General. There is only a handful of thugs that can give a fight last rule to a unit and GW seems to be pretty sparing in handing such things out.