King Taloren

That is what I said.... It won’t hit any units while traveling through the portal. But on the way TO the portal. It can pass over units on its way to end its move to trigger the spell portal. Before it reaches the 6” from the spell portal the pendulum still has 8” of movement and can still hit any potential units that are in the way to that point.

dont Apply rules that appear in other abilities until GW says to do that. They have already stated how ability work with conflicting things

Basically any time you see an attack characteristic that is the number of attacks per model in range that the unit can make with that weapon if they are carrying it.

Abilities take precedence on who’s turn it is and when the conditions were placed on the unit. Soul cage happens in the hero phase so it applied first and then if the player has command ability that lets him fight first it will override the soul cage. Because it is applied in the fight phase. So far only a handful of fight first/last abilities (slaanesh) and spells have anything that deal with conflicts like this outside of which ever was applied last is the current situation.

Though the one issue is that the rules for battleshock test say that a success or failure is determined by the modified result. All other rolls do not make such claims about modifiers at all. They even specifically call out battleshock roll and battleshock test separately which seems to be making a clear distinction between the two imo.

Spite Revenants have the ability that forces any successful battleshock tests to be rerolled. The question is do you count the reroll of the battleshock test like a normal reroll and do it before the modified result? (Which the core rules state modified result is the only way to determine if it is a successful or failed battleshock test) Or do you do it after the modified result because you cannot determine the success or failure accurately without adding the slain models? Because at this point unmodified vs 80% of the units in the game the ability is completely worthless because all rolls will be successful before modifiers.

I figure this might get some more notice as part of the topic with the regular rules guys. (Looking at you guys @EMMachine, @Isotop,) Majority of the discussion can be found here: https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/23569-spite-revenants-unbridled-malice-any-good/ So the TLDR: The Designer Commentary and Core Rules state that all re-rolls are applied before modifiers Is a battleshock ability that forces a re roll of the battleshock test part of this reroll before modifiers ruling or is is a separate entity? The Battleshock test does explicitly state that the result of a failure and sucess hinges on the modified totals. Is re-rolling a battlesock test different from re-rolling a hit, wound or save roll?

Right and when a person refuses to see a plain difference I call them someone trying to push the narrative that they hate the re-roll before modifiers, because it messes up their WAAC game play, and desperately trying to prove that it is useless by trying to point out anything they can that makes the mechanic screwed up even if it isn't an actual problem with the rule so everyone can agree that something needs to be fixed because he knows the rules better than everyone else here in spite just now starting to play the game versus all the people on this forum who've been playing Game Workshop games for years who disagree with him. (which in case you haven't noticed not a single comment here has agreed with you) Just cause you rule out people because they can't show you a explicit commentary explaining the difference doesn't mean it's not good or accurate, I've seen this stuff before in 40k and WHFB, this is nothing new. Every Ability that deals with Battleshock calls it a test. Every ability that deals with Hit Wound and saves call it a roll. How do you determine a failure of a hit wound or save? Look at the Roll it doesn't say modified roll. does it? Battleshock on the other hand very explicitly states the determination is from a modified totals. The Abilities to not say reroll the Battleshock roll but the battleshock test. I'm sorry the rules don't get any clearer than that. this is how Games Workshop does things because they think their audience is smart enough to distinguish the minute differences between certain actions. Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied? A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied! could it be that the context of the designer commentary says successful or failed rolls instead of successful or failed tests?!?!?

I’m not conceding anything I’m just done with someone who decides that unless it’s blatantly spelled out word for word in minute detail it’s an opinion. Also you are free to play as you wish just understand that is your way to play and not how the TOs and tournaments run the rules.

Welp the obvious thing to do here is send the designers an email to aosfaq@gwplc.com and you can inform them of their sad mistake and they can issue a fix in the next FAQ release. Meanwhile the rest of us will play the game as it’s intended. You can’t always go by the read as written when it is obviously not what the intent of the rule is. On the other side of this the reroll without modifiers is very explicit in saying what it does. Have fun.

Ok so unless it fits within your set of expectations for rules anything I tell you is invalid. Good to know.

Ehem. Here is the key differences as in the core rules: MAKING ATTACKS Attacks are resolved one at a time using the following attack sequence. In some cases, you can resolve all of the attacks made by the same type of weapon at the same time (see Multiple Attacks, below). 1. Hit Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Hit characteristic, then it scores a hit and you must make a wound roll. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A hit roll of 1 before modification always fails to hit the target, and a hit roll of 6 before modification always hits the target. 2. Wound Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Wound characteristic, then it is successful and the opposing player must make a save roll. If not, then the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A wound roll of 1 before modification always fails, and a wound roll of 6 before modification is always successful. 3. Save Roll: The opposing player rolls a dice, modifying the roll by the attacking weapon’s Rend characteristic. For example, if a weapon has a -1 Rend characteristic, then 1 is subtracted from the save roll. If the result equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the target unit, the save succeeds and the attack sequence ends without causing any damage. If not, the save fails and the attack is successful, and you must determine damage on the target unit. A save roll of 1 before modification always fails. 4. Determine Damage: Each successful attack inflicts damage on the target unit equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon making the attack. Most weapons have a Damage characteristic of 1, but some have a Damage characteristic of 2 or more. BATTLE SHOCK PHASE: In the battleshock phase, both players must take battleshock tests for units from their army that have had models slain during the turn. The player whose turn it is tests first. You must make a battleshock roll for each unit that has to take a battleshock test. To make a battleshock roll, roll a dice. Add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll, and add 1 to the unit’s Bravery characteristic for every 10 models that are in the unit when the test is taken. If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. You decide which of the models from your units flee – remove them from play and count them as having been slain. They spell it out quite plainly. Note that the Battleshock Phase is the only one that specifically calls for a modified roll.

No because it is a Hit ROLL not a TEST. This is the very key difference between the two. The roll can be determined without modifiers. A straight roll to hit is possible. A battleshock test can never be determined without modifiers

So the problem here is what is the difference between a battleshock test and rerolling failed rolls. The battleshock rules define that a failed/successful test is after all modfiers are applied. It is not hinges on the dice roll itself but the total of the dice roll plus models slain vs the modified bravery characteristic. The abilities do not say reroll failed/successful dice rolls but tests. Therefore rerolling something that cannot be determined as a failed or successful on the dice roll itself is not the intent of the rule. Orherwise 90% of the abilities that allow you to reroll successful or failed battleshock tests are worthless. Abilities that mention failed/successful dice ROLLs on the other hand do indeed state that the DICE ROLL is what is the determining factor in what is being rerolled. So this obviously is a reroll before the modfiers are further included because it is an what has been stated in the core rules. There is a precedence in this that tests are not equal to normal rolls because you cannot consider them successful or failures until you have fompared the modified results. Whereas a Hit/Wound/Save ROLL does have a prebuilt determination factor of success or failure because it can be seen as a result before modifiers are applied to further change the results. In fact it might be prudent that instead rerolling battleshock tests you are forced to retake them instead. It feels like you just trying to push your narrative about your dislike of a core rule and designer commentary instead of taking the rules as intended and written

Modified characteristics are not the same as a modified roll. You do not ignore the modifiers for battleshock purposes when determining the value of bravery. The modifier before rerolls is only referencing anything that actually modifies the dice roll itself. Ex: Subtract 2 from the dice roll would be a modifier. Subtract 2 from bravery is not a dice modifier and is not ignored. I am fairly certain they meant to claim that a characteristic roll is different from any other roll in the game especially with how mich larger the numbers involved generally turn out to be.