AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

[Charlo]

1 hour ago, Forrix said:

Yeah, I really think the CoS paranoia is a little out of hand. I would say everything in it is safe for the forseeable future. Down the road, who knows? I think there is a good chance for future battletomes to break down by city (though we have been seeing a trend towards bigger battletomes lately)  or to break out by faction (Like Battletome: Wanderers). The time to remove models they didn't want to support in CoS would have been before it released and we certainly saw them do that. The silver lining to such a big cull is that it gives even less reason to do one after the battletome releases.

Cities also occupies a niche for GW in that it's a little more traditional fantasy (and from the lore standpoint, the everyman!) which is important to the fluff.

Imagine if 40k got rid of Imperial Guard?

[AthelLoren]

40k? Get rid of the Imperial Guard! IMPOSSIBLE! Praise the Emperor and Omnissiah!

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Forrix said:

Yeah, I really think the CoS paranoia is a little out of hand. I would say everything in it is safe for the forseeable future. Down the road, who knows? I think there is a good chance for future battletomes to break down by city (though we have been seeing a trend towards bigger battletomes lately)  or to break out by faction (Like Battletome: Wanderers). The time to remove models they didn't want to support in CoS would have been before it released and we certainly saw them do that. The silver lining to such a big cull is that it gives even less reason to do one after the battletome releases.

The problem is that many of the molds are reaching or passing 10 years in age, and every new human, CoS elf or disposessed model they made was not included in CoS (the Warhammer Quest ones).

The question what GW will do once a mold wears out is a very valid one.

[SwampHeart]

13 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

The problem is that many of the molds are reaching or passing 10 years in age, and every new human, CoS elf or disposessed model they made was not included in CoS (the Warhammer Quest ones).

The question what GW will do once a mold wears out is a very valid one.

Production molds aren't the same as masters, GW has (likely, I have no inside information) been cutting production molds for years. A master can be 20+ years old and still viable to cut production runs from, I still use a mold from 1989 at my job. 

[GeneralZero]

If you are speaking about pure "safety" according to AoS army, CoS isn't the best because it is not a "native" AoS release. But it is super rich in term of possibilities making the thing look like a patchwork.

If you want richness, futureproof, reusability, I'd go:

- stormcast: the most versatile army and kinda space marine of AoS and sooooo many models.

- death : Legion of nagash. Probably the richest single army that can also include some  nighhaunts...Also my fav.

- Chaos: highly depends on your preferences in term of miniatures because they have a strong design. Recently I've gone Disciple of tzench because I like 40K thousand sons and got many  tzaangors. So, it was easy to finish an AoS army with them 😉

- most strong design AoS armies are future proof but lack of number of entries: example: Sylvaneth, Karadons, Gloomspite, etc...

I don't forget Skaven, which is special: many entries are really old but this is a so rich and fun army, that I couldn't resist. Such a specific design with a large player base is in my opinion a safe bet for "future proof".

PS: I'm also french if you want to ask me in French PM me.

 

 

 

[michu]

@SwampHeart And all of that miniatures (yes, even Freeguilders) are from digital sculpting age so even if molds would wear out they can make more.

Edited October 15, 2019 by michu

[prochuvi]

On 10/14/2019 at 4:54 AM, soots said:

Cost for movement is effectively ignored. Dwarfs do not get a discount for mv4 vs elven mv6. Saw this with Skaven. IMO big oversight

I have been saying this many times and usually people ignore it. Glad that finnally one person have the same tougth.

I dont get how hammerers have same stats than others elites for same cost but have 50% less movement.

And the same for every other dwarf unit,same stats than other same cost units but with 50% less movement.in old dispossesed alegiance could be that we was slower due to have tye 5+ ignore spells or the reroll saves but all this have been deleted and we havent got anything in return.

 

It is pretty sad that the best melle unit o the tome be sequitors that (to me) arent cos units,or the best rangued unt be ballista that again isnt a cos unit

 

[Frowny]

When I did similar math for myself hammerers won out as the killiest thing in the book. Unlike executioners their me continue as attacks, making them much stronger. And they are 20 pts cheaper than greatswords. The thing that pushed them way way over the top is a possible 3rd attack from the warden king. There is lots of +1 hit or wound in the book but once you get near maxing out at 2+/2+, things start to plateau for everything. They also have access to the only -1 rend buff, so their max is much higher. If you really wanted you could get 2+/2+ rr everything -5 rend or something for a guaranteed 3.5 damage for every model. Obviously absurd.

I do feel that the speed of the dwarves makes them less appealing that I'd want, but they didnt match up too badly overall. 

 

[Batch]

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

When I did similar math for myself hammerers won out as the killiest thing in the book. Unlike executioners their me continue as attacks, making them much stronger. And they are 20 pts cheaper than greatswords. The thing that pushed them way way over the top is a possible 3rd attack from the warden king. There is lots of +1 hit or wound in the book but once you get near maxing out at 2+/2+, things start to plateau for everything. They also have access to the only -1 rend buff, so their max is much higher. If you really wanted you could get 2+/2+ rr everything -5 rend or something for a guaranteed 3.5 damage for every model. Obviously absurd.

I do feel that the speed of the dwarves makes them less appealing that I'd want, but they didnt match up too badly overall. 

 

Speed isnt much of a problem when we have so much CP generation,  Living City and the Endless Spell Bridge.

Get those Dorfs close!

[MyLonelyDeer]

You guys might have discussed it before, haven’t read whole topic yet, but I have a few questions.

So geedubz removes all options from freeguild general, except two handed sword, wich has its separate model. But in Merc companies of ghb19 we have a company of outriders/pistoliers with General on warhorse. How should I field this company now? Where should I get the warscroll for such General (it is no more on gw website)? How much does it cost now?

And the second question is just a scream of disappointment - why did they even removed this such an amazing and fairly new box of two plastic generals on foot and on horse with lots of options?

[zilberfrid]

15 minutes ago, MyLonelyDeer said:

You guys might have discussed it before, haven’t read whole topic yet, but I have a few questions.

So geedubz removes all options from freeguild general, except two handed sword, wich has its separate model. But in Merc companies of ghb19 we have a company of outriders/pistoliers with General on warhorse. How should I field this company now? Where should I get the warscroll for such General (it is no more on gw website)? How much does it cost now?

And the second question is just a scream of disappointment - why did they even removed this such an amazing and fairly new box of two plastic generals on foot and on horse with lots of options?

Just with Pistoleers, in contrast with culled warscrolls, the general no longer has the option to have a horse.

The artillery one requires a unit that no longer exists, the Pistoleer one can be fielded without the general (and isn't too bad in that case, I think, being reserved at the cost of a command point).

[Fundre]

On 10/14/2019 at 4:54 AM, soots said:

Did my own efficiency ratings for decent units

Damage = unsaved wounds per100 points (doesnt say if rend or mw, but does include wounds)

Rend0 = (lower better) Relative defensive value against rend 0 (value for each wound per point) (Rend1 and Rend2 with their rend respectively)

Blue = melee ratings. grey is missile ratings.

(a few assumptions made - e.g. typical unit size to get bonuses, typical loadouts etc)

Melee Conclusions: 

• You pay for rend and mw
• Cost for movement is effectively ignored. Dwarfs do not get a discount for mv4 vs elven mv6. Saw this with Skaven. IMO big oversight
• Pistoliers > gryphon knights at nearly everything.  Better defense, better move, better offense.
• Eternal guard (rated at standing still) is possibly the most efficient unit in the game if it does not charge.
• Corsairs with a fleetmaster are at around Plaguemonk output.
• Sequitors are amazing. 
• Melee elites. imo. . id go executioner/blackguard.  The sorcerer character is a near must include, and their ca makes darkling units charger farther than cavalry (basically 14" + D6 with CAs).  Especially with the synergy from the sorc who will be +2/3 to cast you can get a bridge off easier for alpha striking. 
• There are a few alpha striking SC units that i didnt include. They have very poor efficiency from my last review

Missile Conclusions

• Shooting efficiency is similar to melee. This is the first game ive played that does this. Scratch that, first army. I wasnt expecting this. Usually doing ranged damage involves a greater cost. It will  be feasible to not take in any melee at all considering you can shoot in combat and we can msu. Everyones gonna hate us
• Hurricanum is a near must include. Every unit benefits. and it doesnt have the "Wholly" requisite. 2 May even be worthwhile to cover more area and do some crazy character sniping.
• Crossbowmen vs darkshards has been discussed to death.  Corsairs are more efficient, but i dislike the 9" range because thats guaranteed charge range whereas 16/24 isnt. I dont like stand and shoot crossbowmen, let alone sisters/irondrake with shorter range for obvious reasons (maybe in living city with a guaranteed range drop to alpha enemy off table)
•  Ballista is the most efficient -2 shot we have.

 

Can you please give me a little more explination as to how this chart works? Thanks

[JackStreicher]

On 10/14/2019 at 9:44 AM, TheGreatEnchanter said:

Can anyone recommend a decent starter list for an all-dark elf army? Wanting to capture glory of Naggaroth of old. 

Lots of Darkshards, Scourgerunner chariots, Black Guard and 1-3 Sorceresses and a Assassin. As core: Bleakswords or a maximized blob of Dreadspears. You can also add a Black Dragon and a Hydra. Hammerhal works well for these as well as tempest’s eye

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Just with Pistoleers, in contrast with culled warscrolls, the general no longer has the option to have a horse.

The artillery one requires a unit that no longer exists, the Pistoleer one can be fielded without the general (and isn't too bad in that case, I think, being reserved at the cost of a command point).

All the Warscrolls are still playable within the Mercenary Company and you can access them via The Azyr App

 

edit: and the Blaclsmoke Battery is super powerful 👍🏻

Edited October 16, 2019 by JackStreicher

[zilberfrid]

29 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

All the Warscrolls are still playable within the Mercenary Company and you can access them via The Azyr App

edit: and the Blaclsmoke Battery is super powerful 👍🏻

Yeah, the warscrolls are available for now, but next year they'll be legends, so effectively gone. The pistoleer mercenaries will still be available.

[JackStreicher]

3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Yeah, the warscrolls are available for now, but next year they'll be legends, so effectively gone. The pistoleer mercenaries will still be available.

Question is: will the Warscroll no longer ne allowed to use then? I think they‘ll still be allowed though you need to access the Warscroll somehow (let‘s start hoarding)

[zilberfrid]

11 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Question is: will the Warscroll no longer ne allowed to use then? I think they‘ll still be allowed though you need to access the Warscroll somehow (let‘s start hoarding)

It will not be available for matched play, it will be in Legends, or will not have points at all.

[michu]

45 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

It will not be available for matched play, it will be in Legends

GW said that Legend warcrolls will have points, just their use in tournaments will depend on TO. But I think that if Mercenaries are good to use then TO should allow warscrolls that are parts of Companies.

[Arkhanist]

53 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

It will not be available for matched play, it will be in Legends, or will not have points at all.

Legends is going to change for 40k and AoS so that legacy units will have warscrolls and matched play points when they go across; but they won't be updated after that (bar major new system changes)

Tournaments will be up to the TO, but they won't be recommended as they won't be part of the annual 'balancing' process. This will be a change from the existing AoS Legends setup.

Quote

With so much awesome stuff on the way for Warhammer 40,000, you might be wondering what’s happening to some of the treasured older models that previously had rules in our Index books. While these might not have a place in our codexes any more, we know that they definitely have a place in your hearts, which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends. 

Every year, we review all of the points values (for all of the units) in Warhammer 40,000. We won’t be doing this for the Warhammer Legends, though. Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee everything they’re gaming with is easily available and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process. Of course, organisers are also free to run Legends events, allowing the use of the full classic range in their games. 

What’s more, in the near future, we’ll be giving all Warhammer Age of Sigmar Legends the same treatment, meaning they too will be getting matched play points for your battles. You’ll see these rolled out in the new year. 

 

[zilberfrid]

26 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

Legends is going to change for 40k and AoS so that legacy units will have warscrolls and matched play points when they go across; but they won't be updated after that (bar major new system changes)

Tournaments will be up to the TO, but they won't be recommended as they won't be part of the annual 'balancing' process. This will be a change from the existing AoS Legends setup.

Thanks, I misremembered. The cannon and organ gun may be in a unique spot to be able to be used even though they can't be allied for other forces.

That is, if the mercenary opion persists in GHB2020

[Alessio]

Do you know if i can take an old battalion like Thrall warhost (Darkling coven) in a Hallowheart army? Does it count as allies maybe?

Edited October 16, 2019 by Alessio

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Alessio said:

Do you know if i can take an old battalion like Thrall warhost (Darkling coven) in a Hallowheart army? Does it count as allies maybe?

You cannot - it is neither a legal selection for a Hallowheart army or an ally. Its Allegiance is Darkling Covens which isn't a legal CoS ally. 

[soots]

16 hours ago, Fundre said:

Can you please give me a little more explination as to how this chart works? Thanks

Damage ratings are based off average wounds per 100 pts.

For example. Greatswords are 7.62. A 160 pt unit does 20 * 4/6 * 4/6 (20 attacks, 3s to hit, 3s to wound) is 8.888 wounds. In 20a, they will trigger the 6+ mw 3.33 times for a total of 12.2 wounds. 160 pts for 12.2wounds is a rating of 7.62 wounds per 100pts. This doesnt signify the rend and mw, which is very important and i stated that in the post.

There is a lot of assumptions for stuff like will the unit typically have a freeguild hero within 18" (I would probably not do this as foot gen is very static and the mounted general is a different comp). So i excluded this bonus, but i said you can get it in the notes section. Other bonuses like Darkshards having more than x models is included because that is an easy requirement.

Defensive ratings are relative amount of attacks they can withstand per 100w. The numbers are for comparative purposes.

Greatswords have 8.  To kill a 160pt unit of greatswords. you need to do 20 no rend wounds. (half saved). 160/20 = 8.

Phoenix guard are 4. To kill a 160pt unit. You need to do 40 wounds (half saved by armor, half by ward). 160/40 = 4.

There are obviously other synergies/spells you can pile on. Like, typically you might want to throw an alchemist into a unit of arkanauts to get double shot. In which case, ive added the cost of an alchemist into the cost of the unit (and you can see its not as efficient as 20 arkanauts by themselves).  My assumptions are based off  whether the bonus is typically inherently included or whether you need to pay for (whether its paying points or meeting requirements which you typically would not want to do). 

Its not a perfect system, but it gives a good measurement for optimal efficiencies and makes a lot of units look redundant (e.g. pheonix guard vs sequitors, pistoliers vs gryphon knights)

Edited October 17, 2019 by soots

[captainhelion]

21 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Lots of Darkshards, Scourgerunner chariots, Black Guard and 1-3 Sorceresses and a Assassin. As core: Bleakswords or a maximized blob of Dreadspears. You can also add a Black Dragon and a Hydra. Hammerhal works well for these as well as tempest’s eye

The Living City might also be a solid option, if you're looking at monsters and Chariots. The Board Edge Ambush gives you some solid options for getting them into place more easily, and healing a Wound on your Hero Phase helps keep everything around longer. 

[JackStreicher]

I was thinking about running the following list (semi competetive):

It might work though other cities work better with this army^^

what do you think?

 

Anvilgard%E2%80%98s%20Stormcasts.pdf

or a bit more of a crazy List:

Anvilgard%27s%20Mercenaries.pdf

Edited October 17, 2019 by JackStreicher
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