SwampHeart

I only run one so once they're gone I'm out. After that is summoned daemonettes for the rest of my needs.

Spell Portals can be really helpful, lets you get MWs through the portal and helps break screens and the like. A few folks were discussing it in the thread earlier and I've tried it since then, I think its an effective tool. I've actually be playing with a very similar list to the one Darren Watson took to BOBO (using Kairos) and its a very effective list. You obviously trade some DP generation but in exchange you get a potent caster/unbinder who has access to some very gnarly tricks.

Yeah it heavily depends on the match up. The issue is against a unit like Plague Monks most HoS armies don't have a ton of tools to deal with them. Bestigors absolutely blend them but they're a bad match up for say a Keeper and so if you lose the Bestigors before you deal with the Monks you're left holding the bag. I've been able to get around this via summoning and using it to keep the monks from coming lose.

What I mean to say is trading Bestigors for Clanrats is a bad trade. The points trade out in my favor but that's not necessarily the best way to evaluate if the trade was effective. Because what happens afterwards is I get charged by the Plague Monks behind the Clan Rats who are more offensive than Bestigors so effectively I'm trading one of my hammers for a screen. I've tended towards using the Contorted Epitome near the Bestigors to get a double chance at causing fight last to let them at least swing before the Monks go. I think this brings up an interesting point that I do find to be an overall weakness of Hedonites of Slaanesh. We aren't often able to set up favorable trades on the table. Not say we're not an incredibly offensively potent army but savvy opponents can really dictate the pace and units that are traded. I think this is probably an intentional element of design because of the potency of HoS summoning.

Marauders are, interestingly enough, super cost effective assuming both of their potential buffs go off. But I think in a more casual environment they make a fine core choice that most people should enjoy playing against.

One third place finish from a UK masters participant and a great player does not Gloomspite Gitz great make.

Ahh my mistake. Yeah that's a pretty impactful item to have on such an already durable model. Upon further inspection of Phil's list, I think its really bad formatting but I think the Suspicious Stone is on his Verminlord Warpseer.

The Plague Furnace has that ability naturally - just like (for whatever unknownable reason) basically every other Skaven large model has.

Yeah that was Darren Watson, it's a really interesting list. He took some interesting pieces to really take advantage of Kairos' manipulate a d6 once per game as well (beast caller's bones specifically so he could take control of a monster once per game).

Now that's a good call! Plus you get some additional (non DP generating) MW output out of the Keeper. Good for slicing a few wounds off a character or a light chaff unit.

Yeah but if you take your own cloak you give up Thermal Rider which is a big deal. A Keeper without fly isn't near as big a threat as a keeper with fly - that's why its such a hard trade to make. And even in the case where you have 2 Keepers with 2 artifacts you can't get Doppleganger and Thermalrider - you'd have to settle for the Godseekers girdle instead.

@CB42 not to choke up the thread too much but I think fiends look attractive against that setup. There are a myriad of problems with using Fiends as the solution for anything but from a purely theory based perspective I think the tandem -1 to hit and -1 to wound (assuming a large enough unit) plus their own potential damage output against a monster makes them an ideal answer to the GKoTG. Again I don't think this is practical unfortunately because Fiends are overpriced at current but they do seem ideally suited for the job.

Savvy players will see the flying keeper jumping the line plan and do exactly this. Its a great idea in theory to say just jump over them and kill the characters but Skaven are so wildly undercosted that they can truly bubble wrap characters to the point where even with fly you can't get into a position to damage them. I think either shooting their screens or possibly looking into Seekers is a solid idea. Seekers might actually be a pretty strong tool for clearing our chaff screens like dogs, clan rats, etc. They're more expensive than Raiders but faster with a more consistent damage output. Seekers as a whole are a tough one for me - I always want to use them but they're the first thing I cut. I'm not 100% sure on what a solid answer is to the Doppleganger - maybe this is a case where you'd take the Exalted Keeper for the -1 to hit option? I don't like relying on magic as an answer ever, its too unreliable - especially given we lack any bonuses to cast. All that said maybe its a great target for an early Mesmerizing Mirror? Another idea is that since Doppleganger is once per game to see if you can bait it out with a strong charge from non keeper units paired with Locus support. I can tell you the GKoTG doesn't want 30 Bestigors beating on him anymore than he wants two keepers so there may be value in trying to get him to spend the cloak early or pin him in a bad situation. @Magnus The Blue - bracketing is a term meaning you move the monster down one of its wound brackets.

Honest answer is its difficult to deal with. I've considered Ungor Raiders, especially with a pre-game move it isn't too hard to get 30 in range to shoot a hole in the screen but obviously that's a points investment. Right now my main game plan is usually putting Bestigors into the screen and understanding its a bad trade. The Bestigors will wipe out my opponent's screen, I know I'm going to get charged by Plague Monks so I atleast try to keep the Epitome near them for the chance to swing before they will before they get removed. Usually the goal against that build is to go full bore and just try to pin my opponent on his side of the table for the first two turns so I can get the upper hand on objective scoring, and then just try to keep pressure up via summoning. I have 2 very competent Skaven players in my local meta so I get to play this game pretty often. I'm able to win it more than I lose but its never an easy game and I'm usually picking up wins by slim margins. Really not something I've even thought about the counter on. I'm fortunate (or unfortunate from a practice standpoint) that I only have 1 FEC player in my local meta and they play Blisterskin rather than Gristlegore. Just trying to theory hammer it out I wonder if the GKoTG isn't the ideal prey for a Blademistress on Exlated Chariot? Or maybe an actual unit of Seeker chariots? Obviously this isn't a guaranteed match up but I think the opportunity to deal MWs before combat could be really beneficial at bracketing the TG.

They should but some don't - doesn't change my expectation to see command represented on the table.