AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Lucentia]

I'm not surprised to see crystal touch changed, but it is disappointing, re-rolls to hit and 6s doubling to two hits could kick it some real mortal wound numbers.  The real kicker is moving it to the end of the combat phase rather than, say, after the unit piles in/finishes attacking, you may well not have any snakes left by then!

[Boar]

5 hours ago, Overread said:

1) To learn that there can be other ways to cause harm that aren't protected by the wound limits.

Those appear to be patched up in new warscroll.

[Milano]

As I’m in the middle of starting my DoK army, those new rules left me quite confused. Morathi is a must have for me (I love the model and the lore around here 😄).  With her new rule (..+1 attack for Melusai 18“) I feel pushed to go fully snakes. Buuut a mixed army with witch/elves and melusai was something I went for initially. 
So all snakes then with Morathi, or are there arguments for a mixed melusai/witch elves army as well? 
Thanks for helping a DoK beginner out😅

 

[Fyrm]

I’d say mixed should be good. You probably can’t keep your entire army in her bubble anyways. So just keep the Melusai as her murder squad, and it should all be good!

[Lucentia]

To be honest it's not like DoK has the broadest model range in the world, so running a mixed force is a good way to keep you from getting bored painting snakes and/or witches over and over.

 

[DJMoose]

3 hours ago, Mcprowlington said:

Its says pick an enemy unit and roll a dice for each model in "this" unit. So it's like evocators. If it meant the enemy unit, it would say "that" unit. 

Honestly i'm really surprised they didn't touch lifetakers. Or do a quick pass at the other temples, but i guess that was very wishful thinking.

Ok. That interesting wording.  I hate it because the wording is the difference between doing 1 mortal wound to a single model and 20 mortal wounds to a single model. If it's the same as an evocator then that's actually not terrible.

[JackStreicher]

27 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

Ok. That interesting wording.  I hate it because the wording is the difference between doing 1 mortal wound to a single model and 20 mortal wounds to a single model. If it's the same as an evocator then that's actually not terrible.

Not as Good as before imo 😕

if there‘s anything left (of the enemy, or you) at the end of the combat phase the sisters have already failed. The enemy could also just remove models within 1“ as casualties  this really sucks 

I would have considered Blood Stalkets to stay 100 pts with 2 shots...

 

Well, we‘ll see how it‘ll work out ^^

Edited November 7, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Mutton]

Crystal Touch should have been "after this unit finishes its attacks." The fact that it's at the end of combat, within 1", is a huge problem. I guarantee there'll be a ton of situations where you won't get to use Crystal Touch at all, even though you're still technically engaged in combat with someone.

It's a rule that's going to leave people with plenty of feelbad moments, and it didn't have to be this way.

[Orkmann]

I was just discussing the change on crystal touch with a friend of mine. As it looks it will work like the evocators ability, it can be pretty strong imo, although it's somewhat situational.

This can be very handy if you engage multiple units, let's say a beefy hero and a large unit. So you hit the unit with most of the snakes, than you need only one snake in the range of the hero to channel the mws and remove it. 

It is true sometimes the opponent will be able to remove models to not get impacted by the mortals - but if they do so, they wont be able to hit back either.

[umpac]

22 minutes ago, Orkmann said:

As it looks it will work like the evocators ability, it can be pretty strong imo, although it's somewhat situational.

A big difference is when the wounds are allocated though. Evocators deals MWs after their attacks are finished, while sneks attack with their crystal touch at the end of combat (giving your opponent an opportunity to either strike back and reduce your numbers or remove models as you mentioned). On paper it seems like a sidegrade. You will deal a lot more MWs now with big units (and you only really saw them in 20s before at least), but it will come at the end of combat which is less impactful. 

[Fyrm]

Whether it triggers at the end of the activation or the end of combat, the enemy can remove casualties such that they are safe from it. Unless it happens first, that difference won’t matter much for that trick. Happening before pile-in/the start of combat could cause it to be wasted as well, and after pile-in but before attacks could knock some spear attacks out. 
 

I think any wording of this ability would be awkward and create feels bad moments. While other ones would probably be better for most scenarios, I can’t see a way to work this as an ability that would work cleanly. 
 

 

I also think we may want to play with them a bit. At first I too was disappoint with it, but the more I think about it the more I’m warming up to them. Idk, maybe I’m just a Melusai fanboy, but I don’t think it’s as bad as everyone’s making it out to be. You only need one of them within 1” of one enemy model to get all hits from the unit in. So pulling casualties such that you can’t use it would requiring pulling out one to two ranks. I feel like killing that many models would mean you’re getting rid of that unit in battle shock. Or you had a bad pile in and wouldn’t have gotten many attacks in anyways. And losing models before the end of the combat does make it feel bad...but unless you have every single snek in there you’re still getting more hits in. 
 

Let’s say you have a block of 20, and you got 10 within 1”. Then the old way would get you 10 hits. With the new way, you need 11 losses before you’re rolling less dice. Any less, and you’re either rolling equal or, more likely, more! Now, you did less damage before they could attack. Maybe. If you always attack with your sneks before your enemy can attack into them. 
 

Also, as has been said, there are a few other tricks you can do with this way. 
 

So ya, I think this may not be as bad as people are making it out. I’m actually a little excited to play some games, and watch to see if I’m getting more or less damage with this version!!!

[swarmofseals]

Crystal touch is a lot worse now for sure, but with all of the +1A bonuses that Melusai are getting it would have been completely insane if it had stayed as it was before. It really should be 3" though and not 1".

I think Blood Stalkers are quite legit now even with the increased cost to 140. I think the comparison to Vanari Sentinels (which I think everyone agrees are a good unit) is instructive. Using my WDR formula (which I've explained at length elsewhere, but suffice to say it's a measure of damage efficiency that compares damage per points across all rend and armor values scaled for the estimated frequency of those armor values), Blood Sisters (unbuffed) now sit at .0574. Compare that to the following:

Sentinels (lofted, no power of hysh) - .0339

Sentinels (lofted, power of hysh) - .0516

Sentinels (aimed, no power of hysh) - .0445

Sentinels (aimed, power of hysh) - .0605

Sentinels have a bit more range and can ignore line of sight, but are also a bit slower and *much* less damage efficient if they fail to resolve power of hysh.

Overall I think that Blood Stalkers are a bit different from Sentinels in terms of usage. They aren't quite as good at assassinating small heroes but are still OK at that role, and they are much better than Sentinels at damaging units/monsters.

They also benefit from some nice buffs. Even just the rr1s to hit on turn 3 and after will help quite a bit, and reroll all hits in Hagg Narr will be sick. Needless to say the combo with Morathi is excellent, and I even wonder if Shadowhammer Compact might be worth a look.

Blood Stalkers being reasonable also opens up Temple Nest as a legitimate battalion choice now. The battalion ability is really quite good.

Morathi herself is pretty incredible now, providing damage, survivability, and utility all in one package.

 

[Boar]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

which I've explained at length elsewhere, but suffice to say it's a measure of damage efficiency that compares damage per points across all rend and armor values scaled for the estimated frequency of those armor values

Out of curiosity, can you point me either to your explanations or tell us what distribution of armor values you assume for your calculations?

[Chumphammer]

I think a unit of 10 snakes for 280pts can be a good support killer

hitting on 4's with los, with rerolls from turn 3 could be great. Add in witch brew to reroll wounds. 8" move with 24" range is great coverage

After turn 1 you can even use Morathi's ability for an extra set of shots. 

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, Chumphammer said:

I think a unit of 10 snakes for 280pts can be a good support killer

hitting on 4's with los, with rerolls from turn 3 could be great. Add in witch brew to reroll wounds. 8" move with 24" range is great coverage

After turn 1 you can even use Morathi's ability for an extra set of shots. 

Witchbrew doesn't affect missile weapons unfortunately, but yeah Stalkers all of a sudden aren't so terrible anymore, perhaps not great but hero sniping utility isn't really something Daughters had good access to before. A unit of 10 output-wise is actually better than Drycha Hamadreth at range (3+ 3+ VS 4+ 3+) for less points, and Drycha has been a great sniper in all my games with her - and unlike Drycha, you can even shoot the Stalkers in the hero phase with Morathi's help! Definitely a unit to watch now. 

 

For reference, 10 Stalkers shooting at a standard 5 wound 4+ save hero, accounting for Look Out Sir, average 10 hits on a 4+ to-hit, 3 of which are mortal wounds leaving 7 hits, and they average 5 wounds on a 3+ to-wound, leading to average 3 failed saves on a 5+ thanks to Rend -1. They on average rolling kill a 5 wound 4+ save hero, and will even more easily kill more fragile heroes, with an average threat range of 32" (8" movement + 24" range.) 

 

This really bears stating; doubling the units' shots is great, but making them do mortal wounds on unmodified 6s means they aren't completely shut down by Look Out Sir anymore. They are more than twice as efficient against heroes as they used to be.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Jaskier

[swarmofseals]

5 hours ago, Boar said:

Out of curiosity, can you point me either to your explanations or tell us what distribution of armor values you assume for your calculations?

If you search my post history I imagine you can find it somewhere. It's pretty back of the envelope, but in the math I weighted 5+ and 4+ saves with a value of 3, 3+ and 6+ with a value of 2, and 2+ and - saves with a value of 1.

I very much doubt that it's exactly precise (nor could it be given that the most common save values in the metagame will shift from time to time), but I think it's pretty reasonable and it's a lot easier to compare a single number rather than to tease out the expected damage per point against every save level individually.

[InSaint]

8 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Witchbrew doesn't affect missile weapons unfortunately, but yeah Stalkers all of a sudden aren't so terrible anymore, perhaps not great but hero sniping utility isn't really something Daughters had good access to before. A unit of 10 output-wise is actually better than Drycha Hamadreth at range (3+ 3+ VS 4+ 3+) for less points, and Drycha has been a great sniper in all my games with her - and unlike Drycha, you can even shoot the Stalkers in the hero phase with Morathi's help! Definitely a unit to watch now. 

For reference, 10 Stalkers shooting at a standard 5 wound 4+ save hero, accounting for Look Out Sir, average 10 hits on a 4+ to-hit, 3 of which are mortal wounds leaving 7 hits, and they average 5 wounds on a 3+ to-wound, leading to average 3 failed saves on a 5+ thanks to Rend -1. They on average rolling kill a 5 wound 4+ save hero, and will even more easily kill more fragile heroes, with an average threat range of 32" (8" movement + 24" range.) 

This really bears stating; doubling the units' shots is great, but making them do mortal wounds on unmodified 6s means they aren't completely shut down by Look Out Sir anymore. They are more than twice as efficient against heroes as they used to be.

The question is whether changes to Blood Stalkers might inadvertently create  an effective shooting DoK army when combo with Morathi.

Morathi + 20 Blood Stalkers will cost more than half the army at 1180 points. If you play Khailebron, seize Turn 1 and reposition to pump out 80 shots, you should be able to comfortably take out key targets. You opponent has no interaction to counter this, except for maybe putting stuff in deepstike.

Another overlooked spell is Withering, it affects all attacks directed at the unit so your Stalkers will have +1 to wound against the target.

[DJMoose]

So amongst the many things on the new warscroll for Morathi, anyone else find it interesting that she counts as a general in addition to your army general?

[Lucentia]

That's a neat touch, and a good workaround for 'Yeah, the big boss of the faction is showing up today, but they're not my general cos it's worse tactically.'  Some of the newer books do mess around with that sort of thing, like Slaanesh having up to three generals, or S2D switching who's the general every turn.

[Overread]

A question fellow fans - Imagine you've got the following

10 Lifetakers 
10 Lifetakers
10 Heartrenders
10 Heartrenders

With a leader model every 10 this means I can field them as separate groups of up to 10 in pairs or as a single larger group of 20 each. If you were thus to add another 5 which would you add; another unit of lifetakers or another unit of heartrenders. 

Followup question if instead of 5, you added 10 more would that change your answer 

[swarmofseals]

@InSaint yep, you've come to the same conclusion I have. I'll need to test it to confirm, but I think the Khailebron 20 Stalkers + Morathi list is going to be quite broken -- and I say that as someone who very rarely thinks something is OP before getting a chance to thoroughly test it.

 

EDIT: I'm not rating The Withering that highly because the 18" range won't reach most of the time on turn 1 and I don't think the list can afford to spend 70 points on Umbral Spellportal.

Edited November 8, 2020 by swarmofseals

[Ser_namron]

So blood sisters dont even get there MW attacks during any hero phase activates since its " at the end of combat phase" correct?

If so this is the worst change ive ever seen. Completely neuters the ability because of when they decided to make it activate.  Top tier rules writing as always.

[Chumphammer]

Shrine brood: 120
Scarhcoven: 140
Viper: 140

[DJMoose]

50 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

So blood sisters dont even get there MW attacks during any hero phase activates since its " at the end of combat phase" correct?

If so this is the worst change ive ever seen. Completely neuters the ability because of when they decided to make it activate.  Top tier rules writing as always.

Okay, now I'm upset. >_<

[Jaskier]

Turned to Crystal absolutely should have been changed before people could start stacking attack bonuses, but it also should have triggered immediately after the unit is chosen to fight like Evocators. There's no good reason it shouldn't have worked that way - and besides, it's not like Blood Sisters were considered a top tier unit before.