Fyrm

I mean, given everything I already pointed out, I think it still nets out pretty good for them. 10 points per 10 increase for a lot of viability buffs.

So, I’ve been thinking on the implications of what we’ve seen of Galatian Champions. Our foot heroes getting to fight in the hero phase is very nice. But I feel like the biggest winner is Blood Sisters. Not only does this allow us to get them attacking in the hero phase, thus triggering their turn to crystal, it makes the Ironscale’s buff that requires she fight first and kill something much more viable! Now it’s not a choice of fight with sisters at full strength or fight with Ironscale first to potentially buff but open yourself to losing models. You just have Sisters bodyguard Ironscale and they fight right after her.

Hey! Hope it’s alright I add my battlereport here. Me and my roommates are doing a Path to Glory! To add a bit more variety, we’re doing 2 armies each. Here’s a rundown of my first battle, vs Soulblight! List is attached. Short version is Khailebron with both snek heroes, both snek units, shadowstalkers, hag queen, and an Avatar. And a bloodwrack viper. Good variety, all in a Battle Regiment. We were doing the battle with 4 objectives in a square and 1 in the center. They had 2 zombie squads at the front, with a skeleton knight hero for a general in the middle. Necromancer hiding behind some cover. And 2 units of blood knights in reserve due to subfaction. I deploy with the Shadowstalkers on one objective, archers on the other, then the melee sneks in the front, heroes behind with Avatar. I take first because one drop. Fail mindrazer, get catechism. Command point to let my Sisters zoom down the board into the general. Archers move up [but I forget to shoot with them, oops], heroes run up in a cluster for the tactic, jump the Shadowstalkers into the mix so they can’t be deepstrike killed and Khailebron teleport the Avatar [still asleep, but ready to wake up next turn when he’s needed]. melee sneks get into the general easily. …and scratch him up a little. Dude was way tankier than I thought [that will be a theme of this battle]. Lose a couple in retaliation. End turn with 5 VP [3 objectives, 2 tactics] their turn 1. Choose to go for kill battleline, like that damaged snek unit in the general’s face. Necromancer gets off lifeswarm, which will prove a bane of my existence too. Uses the hero power to heal the General back to full. Shuffles the zombies a bit, Necromancer goes to help his boss, blood knights pop up behind me stealing objectives, but they fail their charge with a reroll each [command ability and triumph]. General and zombies squish sneks. Gets his 5 VP. round 2, my turn. I go for stealing one of his objectives, which I do with my Shadowstalkers fairly easy. They’re right by the general and a pack of zombies, but it is what it is. I get my Avatar up, and cast the Viper with a 12! That blood noodle did work!!! Not yet, obviously, but ya. Summoned it by the two knight squads. Avatar moved down to help with that, and my heroes moved to skirmish peoples. The Necromancer barely scrapes by with 1 health after a ton of amazing saves and wards, surviving archers and Ironscale. Medusa blasts some zombie and avatar scratches some knights. End with 4 VP, 2 from objectives and 2 from tactics, for 9. his turn 2, and my viper eats one knight. The rest of that unit kinda walk around it, but it’s so big they have some trouble. The others walk up to the avatar, but I redeploy him back and roll a 6, so he’s with the rest of the squad. Both knights fail their charge. But his general and the zombies by their get theirs off! Lifeswarm and Necromancer move closer to that battle. Necromancer casts something but I unbind. A bunch of Shadowstalkers fall, but enough hold that I keep the unit. He gets 5 VP, tactic was to hold 2 objectives not in his territory, like the ones he deployed his knights onto. 10 VP total. turn 3. 2 more dead knights to viper. His general heals back to full and a bunch of zombies get brought back. I fail another mindrazer, but get my catechism on the Avatar. Archers get dropped onto his other territory, netting me the 2 units wholly within his territory tactics, and paper the zombies that are the only targets in range. Don’t steal the point though. Zombies move slow. Get a few more pot shots at the zombies with general, using my Medusa and my general, but they just keep coming back! And any wounds I get on his general get healed back in the hero phase with heroic action. The Avatar does work at least, cleaving one knight and barely leaving another alive. Takes half his health in retaliation though. Shadowstalkers are stuck [my reading of their ability is they can’t teleport out of combat, as they can teleport instead of a normal move, and can’t teleport instead of a retreat like some units mention], but holding alright. Snek heroes run into that brawl and start clearing a path through the zombies, but it takes a while. Hardly scratched for their efforts though. I do get 4 VP, for 13 total. his turn 3, more zombie rezzing, more healing general. Viper finishes its unit of knights. Zombies by archers shamble back to them, end up kinda entrenching that unit in a bog that goes nowhere. Remaining blood knights finish the avatar, I kill off most of the zombies but a few remain, and my shadowstalkers aren’t looking great but they’re holding in there. He gets 3 VP, there really wasn’t any tactic he could go for so he burned taking down the monsters I don’t have. Bringing him to 13 turn 4, and he gets the double! Takes it and runs down my hag who’s been lonely in the middle, but not before losing a knight to the viper [thats 6 models killed with that so far]. Btw, did I mention his general healed to full and he got back a bunch of zombies? He takes my Shadowstalkers down to the queen, I finally finish his zombies. Hag holds on for her life against the two knights. Gets 3 more Vp for 16. my turn 4. Viper finished the knights, coming in at a solid 9 downed through the game! But that was the end for it because everything else was too far off. I go for taking down his general, try and fail to take him down. Pulled out the shadow queen, which might have made the difference, but I needed her jumping next turn. Archers and zombies still off in the background trading blows and being irrelevant. End with 2 VP for 15. he secures first turn and we call it. I won’t be able to finish off his zombies, so he’ll have his grand strategy of keeping a battleline alive. I’ll be able to get mine, to control more territory, because I can jump 2 peoples on my turn. None of our remaining heroes are damaged after some good heroic recoveries, and we’re both spent on tactics we could pull off, so he’ll win by one. Had I doubled I could have tied the VPs and won a minor off having more tactics completed. But still, it was a really close match and I had a bunch of fun! I know it’s a bit of a wall of text, but here are some takeaways: the Viper did work! 9 blood knights swallowed. Which, to be fair, is where it shines. Elite small units. Avatar almost did solid work, but some good rolls on his saves kept it from getting kills. My plan of pumping up the melee sneks and launching them forward for massive damage did not work, but maybe if I can build them up in size a bit? Idk, we’ll see how that goes. If nothing else they pulled some threat so the rest of the army could advance, so that’s something. This list is surprisingly shooty, with all but 2 units having something in that phase, which mostly just meant I could pop zombies faster and was able to eventually take down that necromancer, even if his ward saves were on point. Nastrond 2.pdf

The more I’m thinking of it, the more I like coalitions for any future Malerion faction. Like, have it be it’s own thingy, but both armies can 1 in 4 the other, so they’re built with each other in mind. I feel like that fits the relationship much better.

So, a couple of friends and I are starting up a Path to Glory campaign. Because there’s 3 of us, we decided we’d each take two different armies for more variety, and I’m going with GSGs for one of mine! [could you guess from me posting here?] edit: ignore all the below! I was rereading the shrine, and it does talk about it being new and adding it to the army. Ah well. So, a question. The Loonshrine explicitly returns units, not summons new ones? So it is the same unit? So it should count for Hold the Line, if they kill all your battleline but you rez at least one of them with the shrine? Does that sound right? if so, that sounds like an easy 3VP?

Oh, I love this idea!!! Giving us a Morathi mech! I think the Wizard attack shouldn’t be a ranged attack though, if you want the Morathi pilot to be analogous to Gotrek. Part of the reason that movement restriction is significant is because he’s stuck in melee. I’d say give wizards/Morathi a tail swipe. More fitting, given that it’ll be a Medusa. Or a hag with a book, which would get their choice of either I suppose? This also fixes that problem, of using the Arcane Tome to turn a priest into a wizard would get both the shooting and the melee. but ya, I’d be fine with us getting a faction terrain for our giant snek statue. Unfortunately I doubt we’ll be seeing a book for a while, but GW has thrown a bunch of weird pacing choices recently so who knows!

Well, the thought there wouldn’t be a new model for the Avatar of Khaine. But a whole new unit Avatar of Morathi-Khaine or even Avatar of Morathi? Maybe have it be like a caster version of the current one, gives a spell to animate and a bonus to casters around it [I’m imagining it will have to be on tail]. maybe instead of +1Ld, it can give some other minor defensive buff [maybe 6s to save reflect a mortal? That could be neat to spread across the army]? Idk, just think it’d be neat and fitting with that lore you mentioned. Maybe as part of souping us with Malarion’s elves if they end up doing that, to give the dedicated DoK players some new toys as well?

So, not sure if this is the best place to ask this but here I go! I kinda want to make a serpentine avatar of khaine. How would y’all suggest I do the kitbash? The only way I can think of is sticking his body on the Shadow Queen’s tail. Can anyone think of any other ways to pull this off? I know her base is bigger than his but they look about the same general size, I think with a bit of work it can be fit together and secured onto a properly sized base. I’d like to stick to GW product mostly, in case I ever find myself in an opportunity to go to a tourney with it. or should I just hold out hope that they’ll release a new Avatar of Morathi-Khaine type model?

Huh. You’re right. That’s interesting. Even if they are removing keywords from terrain/endless spells, I’d still argue it works because it doesn’t remove the name? It is still an Awakend Wildwoods, just one without abilities of its own. but that’s a very good catch!!!

Absolutely nothing? That’s about how it’s always worked though. Very large garrisons can be a huge movement boost over two turns, if you start by it and hop out the next turn. there are a number of reasons this isn’t a big deal though. First, you have to start by the terrain. At which point you have to ask, why weren’t you already in it? Also there isn’t a ton of defensible terrain that I know of? Or at least not baseline. There’s a few faction terrain, Seraphon being the biggest so makes sense that’s your example. But then why not start them in the garrison, with the engine placed right in front of the center of the field, just barely wholly on your side, and pop out turn one? Much better speed boost, start a few units in enemy territory. there’s also ways to shut it down. Have people around the garrison before you can enter it. Have people standing around where you want to exit. It’s nice, but not game breaking.

Nice!!! That’s awesome to hear!!! Opens up some options for armies that don’t have monsters/artillery of their own to ally them in and still engage with the battalions for them.

Alright, I’ve said my piece on the paint scheme/conversions/counts as/proxies debate. Twice. And until I see anything that addresses my points or directly asks me to explain them I’ll leave it at that. so a new question!!! Well, sort of. I’ve asked this before, but haven’t seen any answers to it. Can you run allies in the core battalions? What about coalition or whatever the new thingy is?

See, here’s my issue with this answer. I’m coming from the exact same starting point. I love the lore, I want my army to look beautiful and be painted stunningly and for my army lists to ooze the lore I’ve presented. But here’s the rub. This rule stops me from doing that. My Sylvaneth glade? The one run by a princeling treelord? Can’t make a pretty conversion for him if this rule is to be enforced. I can’t paint my spirit of durthu all corrupted, scars from when he rescued the seed pod of his closest friend, the Treelord Ancient who used to rule this glade, and returned it to the sacred soil to regrow into the princeling. I’m discouraged from painting my plant folk after gumbo limbo trees. At least I think I am. I’d have to look into what the official color schemes for each glade even is, and how to apply it to the army? You claim that the only way to enjoy the lore is to follow lockstep with what is presented. Can’t deviate, can’t expand, can’t carve out your own little niche so your army feels like yours, and not just some generic derps thrown together with no personality. I want my glade to be my glade, for it to play on the table like the lore I’ve written for it would indicate. I want my troops to overflow with life and soul. This rule discourages me from doing that. That’s all I’m saying.

Except, as I touched on, the rules aren’t making all these differentiations. Any deviation is against the rules as currently written. Or, to be more accurate, potentially against the rules. As it is a “check with opponent”. So if you bring a beautiful conversion or a potato [to borrow some else’s strawman], the rules treat you as the same. And someone would have equal ground, using this rule, to tell you that you can’t play. that’s what people are upset about I think. Or at least part of it. If they clarified and separated the situations, then we could get into a discussion about the merits of each, but as it stands if you make a creative conversion or paint a mini not up to their specification, you might as well be bringing a potato.

This got super long, so I’m going to add up here that I do not mean any offense, I just have strong opinions about this subject. Also a TLDR is at the bottom. One of my roommates plays cities of sigmar. Not because of the cities as a whole. Because he’s a dispossessed player at heart. He dabbles in the other Dawi, but he’s a traditionalist in the most dwarves way. According to these rules, he has one option for ranged units. Sure, they’re good, but iron drakes are a particular type of shooting. Very slow, very elite. Sometimes he wants to run a big blob of shooting. So he proxies. Technically some would call it “counts as”, but he runs old thunderers as hand gunners and dwarven crossbowmen as free guild crossbowmen. He is very clear that he’s doing it, and there isn’t much room for confusion there. There aren’t any dwarven gunners or crossbowmen he could be using, so it’s not like there’s a model that the enemy will think of when they see them. but now, any hope of me convincing him to take his dwarves to a tournament are greatly hampered. He’s already weary of dealing with “that guy”, and now that guy has far more ammunition to throw at him. And if someone tries to argue that “this rule isn’t for him”, a rule that isn’t enforced isn’t really there, and a rule that is only enforced some of the time is even worse. relatedly, I love conversions. For my Sylvaneth army, I’m planning a treelord with a flowing cape of leaves, maybe also try to give him a scepter if I can think of a way to do it without making him look too much like an Ancient. Because I’m my lore the Glade is run by a Treelord princeling, only a couple centuries old but the descendant [in as much as treefolk can have those] of the most glorious ruler the Glade has seen. Now I’m not so sure I should, because “that guy” has ammunition to use to disqualify me should I play that marvelous conversion. same for my daughters of khaine. I have a group of Melusai who collect the crystalline arms of their slain foes, still holding their weapons, as trophies. A way to use bits and to give them a bit more personality. There’s no rules for having backup weapons on Melusai, just a silly thingy I did. But now, by the rules, the rules I want to follow, I am labeled a cheater for wanting to be creative. that what this boils down to for me. I’m glad GW has a stance on this sort of thingy. It tells me where they stand, by definition. But where they fell pushed me and my friends out of official games. We’ll still play, but less, and not in any place that will act as advertising for them. We’ll play at home mostly. As I said, a rule unenforced doesn’t actually exist as a rule, and a rule only enforced against some people is even worse. If a rule exists, it should be followed by everyone. Not just “the people it’s meant for”. No one thinks a rule is meant for them, especially not the people it’s meant for. If there was a rule that said “if your opponent is using a top meta chasing list, all your units get a 3+ ward”, I’d be very frustrated, as would many I believe. Every rule must be equally applied. another thingy [sorry, I know I’m rambly 😅] is that I’m not going to open up my opponents battletome to check color schemes. I will go over their units and faction and sub faction rules, but I’m not pulling out a set of color swatches to check color schemes. And if that doesn’t become the new norm, then this rule isn’t being applied. If a rule isn’t being applied, it should be examined and revised. I love warhammer. Because of how much creativity and strategy both it encourages. This new edition has its flaws, but it looks on the whole fun!!! If I have to play in the safety of my own home to be allowed to ignore a rule that would disqualify my and my friends unless we plopped down more money. Disqualify us for investing into the lore of the game. For getting into the fun of the hobby. TLDR: In my estimation this rule, as written, reduces engagement in the lore and fluff of the setting.

You roll 3 dice. For each die that equals or exceeds the wounds of the unit a model in the unit is slain. So if you roll a 2, a 4, and a 5, if the unit has 1 or 2 wounds you get 3 kills, 3 or 4 you get 2 kills, 5 you get 1 kill, and 6+ you get 0 kills. that’s how I understand it.

I still really like it. Eating 2 heroes? 6 1 wound models? 5 2 wound models? All well within averages, and all fairly decent. Especially with msu. A lot of cav units will likely be wiped before they have a chance to turn it off. That 6 man shootcast that’s being discussed in the rules thread? Let’s make it a 1 man unit. I think, even if you get 1 cast of it, it’ll make back its points and then some.

My Sylvaneth army might not care, but my DoK army is right there with you. You can ally in some monsters though [and maybe include them in core battalions? Nobody seems to have any answers for that], and there’s also a spell that turns the caster into a monster for the turn. So that helps some.

Oh cool! I do still wish we had some generic monsters though. Maybe a giant bat-winged snake? Please GW?

Someone else already pointed out that commanders don’t need to be your general, but I’ll add that we’re also locked out of Linebreaker as we have 1 monster, which is our unique hero. unless allied units can be put into core battalions? I’m still unsure on if that’s allowed. Then we could get both artillery and monsters for the battalions.

Do we know if we can run allies in core battalions? I feel like it’d be a good idea to run a monster, given how many VPs we can earn if we can keep it alive and doing stuffs. There is the spell, but that isn’t reliable.

Have we had confirmation as to whether or not we can include allies in core battalions? I can’t see anything saying we can’t in the core rules, but I could easily see that being something tucked away somewhere I missed.

They also got the same battleline treatment as Sisters. So as long as you have a snake general you can run just them for troops and fight in the shade.

Alright, here’s my first DoK 3.0 list. It’s probably garbage, but it’s what I own and feels rather fun. khailebron 1965 points [likely to get the Triumph, and just how the points worked. Taking Indomitable if so] Bloodwrack shrine [steed of shadows] bloodwrack Medusa [general, mindrazer] Melusai Ironscale [subfaction item] 15 blood sisters 10 blood sisters 10 blood stalkers 5 blood stalkers 5 blood stalkers blood viper Soulsnare shackles all units are in a battle regimen, so one drop. Aim to take first, mindrazer the 15 sisters if possible, either way charge them right into their front line. Between that and 20 stalkers, plus whatever else the casters can do, and maybe the endless spell viper if there’s juicy targets it can get to, should be able to output a lot of hurt turn one. And if the viper came out it gets a second round of eating in their herophase, so will have to keep that in mind in case there isn’t anything good in my hero phase but might get an opening in theirs.

Idk. I just like my snek girls.