AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[schwabbele]

Am I the only one who regrets taking gold as main color. I mean it looks good but it is just so boring to paint 😢

[SleeperAgent]

18 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Am I the only one who regrets taking gold as main color. I mean it looks good but it is just so boring to paint 😢

My friend started this game with the golden boys. I never liked them. But going through the gallery on here got me to try em out. I'm now doing White armor with black cloaks. All weapons will be a blue/purple metallic turboshift. The color scheme of an army is a big deal and I suggest to everyone to paint one cheap model and see if you want a whole army like that. If you dont strip it and try again.

It would be a massive help if GW would make an interactive 3d program that let you click paints and put them on areas of models so you could do it all beforehand.

Edited January 28, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[Turragor]

39 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Am I the only one who regrets taking gold as main color. I mean it looks good but it is just so boring to paint 😢

For a while I regretted it big time as I've developed a lot as a painter. But now I've reached a compromise with myself where I paint sc so rarely that when I do it's just my neat and fast gold scheme (Ive done it so much). Minimal fun. 

I then devote lots of time (and colour) to planning and painting other armies. 

[Maturin]

47 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Am I the only one who regrets taking gold as main color. I mean it looks good but it is just so boring to paint 😢

As I'm poor and a terrible painter, I tend to buy second hand miniatures, to save time/money and have decently painted minis. So when I play, you can see Hammers, Anvils, Hallowed Knights on the table, and I really don't mind! So if you're bored with the gold scheme, then swap to another one and play it like I do.

"Somewhere in Shiysh :

- Sir, our Hammers of Sigmar's brethren are in a dire situation. How about sending a relief team?
- We Anvils of the heldenhammer shall not suffer the destruction of our kin if we can do something about it. Deploy a vanguard wing!

Somewhere else the Celestant Prime and a Lord Celestant atop his dracoth are debriefing the battle they've just won against forces of Chaos :

- Aye, it was a good fight indeed, Optimus erh I mean my Lord Prime.
- Indeed it was. We've lost too many today, but securing that artifact was worth such a loss. We've dealt a major blow to our enemies.

Enters the only remaining paladin :

-My good lords, we've heard about an ongoing situation. Hammers are being hammered. What are your orders ?

- Hm, our infantry has taken too much of a toll today, what say you Lord xywz, shall you accompagny me ?

- It will be my honor, Lord Prime. I shall take my dracoth honour guard to fight alongside us! Our dracoth are still hungry for battle.

Celestant prime teleports them both back to Azyr with the dracothian guard, then hurls everybody on the battlefield.

It was a sad day for the Hammers, their small scouting party comprised mostly of liberators were being overrun by filthy greenskins, but then as if the skyes shouted a defiant cry, riding a lightning storm, reinforcements arrived ... "

And that's my army's narrative

[Raffonerd]

1 hour ago, feadair said:

I did some maths comparing 10 Evocators on foot with 6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines specifically against Petrifex Mortek Guard (Save 3+, reroll saves), using https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/. Turns out that Evocators on Dracolines are not too far behind if they get to charge, but Evocators on foot beat them squarely if no charging is involved. For simplicity, I ignored the extra attacks from Primes.

Specifically, Evocators on foot do on average 13.7 damage (assuming half use blades and stormstaves, half grandstaves). If all are on grandstaves, this falls to 12.96.
Evocators on CDLs (again assuming 50/50 weapon split) do 10.22 damage if not charging. On a charge, this increases to 12.22. (If they get to benefit from Pride Leader, it is 11.28, and 13.78 on a charge).

This suggests that even against PE Mortek Guard Evocators on Dracolines are somewhat competitive on damage, assuming you have a good chance of getting the charges in.  Knight-Heraldor will be an important asset here, as it allows retreat and charge. 

All of the above is subject to me not ****** up the maths somewhere, a non-zero possibility. (Edited already for this reason)

You are still missing a lot of stuff:

1) Anvils command: more efficient with on foot evocators

2) Evocators counts as 10 model and cost 80 points less

3) they all have range 2".

If you want to go dracolines you need Larcanum+mount trait+ Cps (T lord or Vindicators).

[feadair]

1 hour ago, feadair said:

I did some maths comparing 10 Evocators on foot with 6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines specifically against Petrifex Mortek Guard (Save 3+, reroll saves), using https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/. Turns out that Evocators on Dracolines are not too far behind if they get to charge, but Evocators on foot beat them squarely if no charging is involved. For simplicity, I ignored the extra attacks from Primes.

Specifically, Evocators on foot do on average 13.7 damage (assuming half use blades and stormstaves, half grandstaves). If all are on grandstaves, this falls to 12.96.
Evocators on CDLs (again assuming 50/50 weapon split) do 10.22 damage if not charging. On a charge, this increases to 12.22. (If they get to benefit from Pride Leader, it is 11.28, and 13.78 on a charge).

This suggests that even against PE Mortek Guard Evocators on Dracolines are somewhat competitive on damage, assuming you have a good chance of getting the charges in.  Knight-Heraldor will be an important asset here, as it allows retreat and charge. 

All of the above is subject to me not ****** up the maths somewhere, a non-zero possibility. (Edited already for this reason)

A more general damage comparison between 6 Evocators on CDLs (50/50 weapons) and 10 foot Evocators, without any save rerolls, is below.

Lessons include:  Evos on CDLs are excellent in terms of damage if you charge a lot. If you take them, include a Knight-Heraldor for this reason. If you plan to slog it out without charges and care only about damage, go for evocators with grandstaves (unless facing VERY good saves). 

Save	Evocators on Celestial Dracolines	Evocators on Celestial Dracolines, charging	Evocators, 50/50 weapons	Evocators, Grandstaves
2+	11.78	14.44	15.19	14.44
3+	15.33	19.33	18.89	18.89
4+	18.89	24.22	22.59	23.33
5+	22.44	29.11	26.3	27.78
6+	26	34	30	32.22
-	27.33	35.33	32.22	36.67

[feadair]

3 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

You are still missing a lot of stuff:

1) Anvils command: more efficient with on foot evocators

2) Evocators counts as 10 model and cost 80 points less

3) they all have range 2".

If you want to go dracolines you need Larcanum+mount trait+ Cps (T lord or Vindicators).

Fair enough. Having said that, the main attraction of Dracolines is mobility. Even in Anvils, a 12" move and native reroll charges (which allows you to cast Empower) seem solid if you need to get your melee guys  somewhere quickly. This is an issue that I have encountered in my games when the opponent does not cooperate with my plan A of first shooting them to pieces and then counterattacking at my leisure. The question is how  much do you have to give up for it. 

Also, I agree that if going Dracolines, LAonCDL + Pride Leader is likely correct, although you will have to make some further sacrifices (an Incantor+Azyros) for it. 

[Raffonerd]

32 minutes ago, feadair said:

A more general damage comparison between 6 Evocators on CDLs (50/50 weapons) and 10 foot Evocators, without any save rerolls, is below.

Lessons include:  Evos on CDLs are excellent in terms of damage if you charge a lot. If you take them, include a Knight-Heraldor for this reason. If you plan to slog it out without charges and care only about damage, go for evocators with grandstaves (unless facing VERY good saves). 

Save	Evocators on Celestial Dracolines	Evocators on Celestial Dracolines, charging	Evocators, 50/50 weapons	Evocators, Grandstaves
2+	11.78	14.44	15.19	14.44
3+	15.33	19.33	18.89	18.89
4+	18.89	24.22	22.59	23.33
5+	22.44	29.11	26.3	27.78
6+	26	34	30	32.22
-	27.33	35.33	32.22	36.67

The problem is re-roll save here.

17 minutes ago, feadair said:

Fair enough. Having said that, the main attraction of Dracolines is mobility. Even in Anvils, a 12" move and native reroll charges (which allows you to cast Empower) seem solid if you need to get your melee guys  somewhere quickly. This is an issue that I have encountered in my games when the opponent does not cooperate with my plan A of first shooting them to pieces and then counterattacking at my leisure. The question is how  much do you have to give up for it. 

Also, I agree that if going Dracolines, LAonCDL + Pride Leader is likely correct, although you will have to make some further sacrifices (an Incantor+Azyros) for it. 

Is not a sacrifice. This is the Dracoline way to play. It depend on what style you want to  play. Dracolines need to hard charge and go for 60 wounds (which means erase the opponent quickly). Anvils is epic in 5 turns (10 shotting phases).

I think that they are both competitive, but to play dracoline you need to use the command ability to overcome their inefficiency. (Btw I think that Dracolines' list is even better then Anvilstrike by now).

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Raffonerd

[feadair]

4 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Is not a sacrifice. This is the Dracoline way to play. It depend on what style you want to  play. Dracolines need to hard charge and go for 60 wounds (which means erase the opponent quickly). Anvils is epic in 5 turns (10 shotting phase).

My question is: why not both? 😉  I have been playing the traditional Anvilstrike list but plan to test the version with Dracolines in  the future. I love the traditional list, but it feels like it could benefit from more mobility.

9 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

I think that they are both competitive, but to play dracoline you need to use the command ability to overcome their inefficiency. (Btw I think that Dracolines' list is even better then Anvilstrike by now

I hope so! It would be very cool to have multiple competitive builds. There did not seem to be any Stormcast in the top 20 in CanCon or GW GT Heat 1 last weekend, but Anvilstrike did get to the top 8 in LVO, courtesy of jhmaslam.

[Raffonerd]

5 minutes ago, feadair said:

My question is: why not both? 😉  I have been playing the traditional Anvilstrike list but plan to test the version with Dracolines in  the future. I love the traditional list, but it feels like it could benefit from more mobility.

I hope so! It would be very cool to have multiple competitive builds. There did not seem to be any Stormcast in the top 20 in CanCon or GW GT Heat 1 last weekend, but Anvilstrike did get to the top 8 in LVO, courtesy of jhmaslam.

Point of attenction LVO had old Tzeench and KO. 

Also I saw only 1 CDL list and I didn't like it.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Raffonerd

[Scurvydog]

I desperately hold out hope for some expansion, errata or even new book to make the older chambers and models better as I do not use any sacrosanct stuff myself besides the knight incantor

As mentoned the draolines do indeed have the best mount traits, pride leader is just so good, would love if dracoths has a similar trait nearly close to as good, and the stardrake something nice and not as gimmicky as storm winged...

Edited January 28, 2020 by Scurvydog

[feadair]

7 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Point of attenction LVO had old Tzeench and KO. 

Yes, Tzeentch  was all over the place in CanCon and the GT. But I guess we just wait for the FAQ on that.

[schwabbele]

2 hours ago, Turragor said:

I then devote lots of time (and colour) to planning and painting other armies. 

Hehe ,  I am also planning my CoS armies right now

[feadair]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

I desperately hold out hope for some expansion, errata or even new book to make the older chambers and models better as I do not use any sacrosanct stuff myself besides the knight incantor

I have been scraping some data from selected tournaments since GHB19, mostly using https://tabletop.to/, to get a feel for which units the community plays in a competitive environment. I do not claim to be comprehensive or 100 per cent accurate; I simply did this to spot general patterns to inform my own lists and painting queues. Wisdom of the crowds and all that. Anyway, some results are below:

Heroes with 10 or more appearances:
12 Celestant Prime
14 Gavriel Sureheart
18 Lord Aquilor
17 Lord Arcanum
12 LAonCD
11 LAonGC
38 Lord-Castellant
22 Lord Ordinator
59 Lord-Relictor
43 Knight-Azyros
33 Knight-Heraldor
53 Knight-Incantor
12 Knight-Vexillor

Units with more than 50 models appearing:
220 Judicators
900 Liberators
790 Sequitors
430 Evocators
60 Evocators on Dracolines
145 Vanguard Hunters
495 Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows
249 Aetherwings
83 Celestar Ballista
(Special mention: 34 Desolators)

Endless Spells with 10 or more appearances:
10 Dais
15 Everblaze Comet

Allies with more than 50 models appearing:
250 Skinks

It is clear that many of our older units/models see effectively no competitive play at all - not exactly breaking news!

Edited January 28, 2020 by feadair

[CommissarRotke]

Uhh anyone seen the new preorder box? Why would they do 2 longstrike and 1 hurricane We need confirmation if there's weapon options because it would suck to have these nice Warcry boxes be useless in regular AOS...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warcry-Stormcast-Eternals-2020

Edited January 28, 2020 by CommissarRotke

[AdamR]

15 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Uhh anyone seen the new preorder box? Why would they do 2 longstrike and 1 hurricane We need confirmation if there's weapon options because it would suck to have these nice Warcry boxes be useless in regular AOS...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warcry-Stormcast-Eternals-2020

They are just regular multipart raptors. Hurricanes and longstrikes are the same kit.

[jhamslam]

3 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

The problem is re-roll save here.

Is not a sacrifice. This is the Dracoline way to play. It depend on what style you want to  play. Dracolines need to hard charge and go for 60 wounds (which means erase the opponent quickly). Anvils is epic in 5 turns (10 shotting phases).

I think that they are both competitive, but to play dracoline you need to use the command ability to overcome their inefficiency. (Btw I think that Dracolines' list is even better then Anvilstrike by now).

 

 

 

Are you also factoring in the 3+ re rollabe save for Mortek Guard? Because thats where i felt having 20 dice for MW was great

[Scurvydog]

29 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Are you also factoring in the 3+ re rollabe save for Mortek Guard? Because thats where i felt having 20 dice for MW was great

Things to note for mortek guard, the reroll save is only for 1 combat phase per point spent. So they can't reroll against shooting and they can't reroll in the hero phase. This of course does not help with the charge itself, but worth noting for subsequent turns if anything is engaged with mortal guard, using anvils to fight again is extra effective to deny rerolls.

[feadair]

5 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Are you also factoring in the 3+ re rollabe save for Mortek Guard? Because thats where i felt having 20 dice for MW was great

I did, comparing 10 Evocators on foot with 6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines specifically against Petrifex Mortek Guard (Save 3+, reroll saves), using https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/. The Evocators on Dracolines are not too far behind if they get to charge, but Evocators on foot beat them squarely if no charging is involved. For simplicity, I ignored the extra attacks from Primes.

Specifically, Evocators on foot do on average 13.7 damage (assuming half use blades and stormstaves, half grandstaves). If all are on grandstaves, this falls to 12.96.
Evocators on CDLs (again assuming 50/50 weapon split) do 10.22 damage if not charging. On a charge, this increases to 12.22. (If they get to benefit from Pride Leader, it is 11.28, and 13.78 on a charge).

Edited January 28, 2020 by feadair

[CommissarRotke]

4 hours ago, AdamR said:

They are just regular multipart raptors. Hurricanes and longstrikes are the same kit.

thank Sigmar then, because I'm sorely tempted to get that box over the Vanguard SC  (especially with Lumineth on the way) because it looks like a good Warcry intro.

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

I recall hearing anecdotes of official AoS facebook admitting that points nerf on SCE in 2019 handbook was a mistake.

Is this true, or just groundless rumour? Or I must have browsed the web while half asleep.

 

[Turragor]

3 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

I recall hearing anecdotes of official AoS facebook admitting that points nerf on SCE in 2019 handbook was a mistake.

Is this true, or just groundless rumour? Or I must have browsed the web while half asleep.

 

Just 3 Units had points reductions, none of them are particularly OP at reduced pts level. 

Sounds like it'd be an easy rumour to source, go to official fb page and search for stormcast questions 

[Vakarian]

7 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

I recall hearing anecdotes of official AoS facebook admitting that points nerf on SCE in 2019 handbook was a mistake.

Is this true, or just groundless rumour? Or I must have browsed the web while half asleep.

 

 

4 hours ago, Turragor said:

Just 3 Units had points reductions, none of them are particularly OP at reduced pts level. 

Sounds like it'd be an easy rumour to source, go to official fb page and search for stormcast questions 

I think Sagittarii means the points increases on the Sequitors, Evocators, and Ballistas. Haven't seen that admitted to myself, though it would be nice if true.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Vakarian

[Turragor]

3 hours ago, Vakarian said:

 

I think Sagittarii means the points increases on the Sequitors, Evocators, and Ballistas. Haven't seen that admitted to myself, though it would be nice if true.

Aha gotcha 

[Bozly]

Are there any strong non shootcast lists out there currently? Ive been digging through some tournaments and it seems like its kind of tight