AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Reuben Parker]

 

based on what your going to have I would probably go. 

King -1 to hit trait, born from agony & cloud of midnight 

2x2 sharks (one set with launchers one set with nets)

3 spear eel 

3 shield eel 

will be 980 so a shot at a triumph and gives a bit of a mixture. I don’t Volt is really worth it at 1k losing out on cloud of midnight would be pretty huge. 

[plavski]

Sharks are staying bravery 6, so you're rolling bravery even when you lose just one if you stack them in a unit, outside of any bravery shenanigans. Just something to keep in mind.

[Elves are the best]

When you guys use the akhelian king what command traits do they use.

I’ve only played two matched play games and I’ve used lord of storm and sea for both of them.

[DocKeule]

10 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

2x2 sharks (one set with launchers one set with nets)

I think you can mix booth missile weapons in one unit and I would. So you have a chance to deny the pile in and a bigger chance to snipe or cause damage for the extra bite and improved charge.

[Frowny]

I'm thinking that this entire army is going to be incredibly strong with these minor tweaks. Eel spam was already borderline OP, and Idoneth gained several other relevant and powerful support pieces, without losing anything on their actual strongest build. Already people were running a unit of 3 sharks to benefit from the command ability on high tide. Now the army can stop pile ins for free. Additionally, the turtle is much better, as a 2+ save on turn 1 does a lot in terms of buying time until turn 3, and the 3+ save on other turns is also excellent. The Akhelian Corps is now amazing, as there is nothing in you don't want, and easily gets you to a 2 drop list. 

Volturnos, Akhelian Corps (Turtle, 4x guards, 2x sharks), spending most of your points on eels I think will be very very strong, borderline OP. Could throw in some aetherwings if you want, or the board-edge deepstrike for 3-4 drops as well.

 

[Kitsumy]

Nah competitivewise this wont change anything,

 

Lumineths mortal spam will do the same, kroak will keep deleting all our army alone in 2 turns etc etc.

 

New tomes are absurded ruleswise, not points can fix it. And idoneths keep eating magic in the face, whats the use on having 2+ unrendeable eels when every unit will take 10+mortals per turn?

Edited November 21, 2020 by Gaz Taylor
Removed offensive word

[DocKeule]

Yeah, the powercreep has spiraled out of control.

In fun games these changes will bring IDK back into solid mid-tier but that's about it I think. We will have a few more hits and wounds every turn but since every other unit now has aftersaves and stuff I don't see us going on autowin. IDK still do very few mortal wounds (which for me is the way it should be but other armies spam MWs like crazy), still have no protections against that and will still have a hard time keeping objectives for longer periods.

[Reuben Parker]

Saying this won’t change competitive pay is a silly until things are tried. Considering IDK can do things now like.

fuethan reverse tides 

caster

2 scryer 

3x10 thrall / reaver 
2x3 shield eels

9 sharks 

can be 36 quality shots to thin out casters and or mortal wound spammers whilst still being very good in melee (their output is exceedingly close to spear eels as long as you get the 4th bite) Double scryer allows reserves and long bomb charges. 
 

yes most likely a whole army of sharks isn’t the way to go but still it’s an example. 

[SleeperAgent]

3.0 battletome update: Forgotten Nightmares applies to magic as well as shooting. That would help with the MW spam I think.

[Rhetoric]

15 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

3.0 battletome update: Forgotten Nightmares applies to magic as well as shooting. That would help with the MW spam I think.

Totally, there aren’t that many other changes I’d like at this point.  Give me 2” reach on Thralls, rewrite the Soulrender and Aspect of the Sea scroll and give us some CA’s beside the  Lord of Tides.  Maybe some Enclave rewrites, and  make Rituals prayers.  Ok, so maybe a few changes,  but overall the army is fun to play even at competitive levels.  And the models are superb.  

[DocKeule]

28 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

3.0 battletome update: Forgotten Nightmares applies to magic as well as shooting. That would help with the MW spam I think.

I don't see that happening. IDK already neutered the shooting. I we could also deceide the direction of any magic on the table IDK would be too much of an anti-army for too many factions.

[Frowny]

Any thoughts on reavers? +1 to hit from the turtle And +1 wound from the eidolon on 5 attacks seems pretty solid.

[whispersofblood]

2 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

3.0 battletome update: Forgotten Nightmares applies to magic as well as shooting. That would help with the MW spam I think.

What MW spam? Honest question here. MW spam seems like a meme. There isn't much army tier MW generation around. The highest  volume is probably LRL but the MW they do is generalyl the totality of their dmg.

But also the only vulnerable models to MW are Kings(cloud of midnight) and Volturnos both of which have an easy defence against all ranged MW generation. 

I'm always shocked to see the direction AoS gamers have gone since the inception of AoS. The game is so much more safe than it was back in the day and yet everyone wants more safety. 

 

[SleeperAgent]

18 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

What MW spam? Honest question here. MW spam seems like a meme. There isn't much army tier MW generation around. The highest  volume is probably LRL but the MW they do is generalyl the totality of their dmg.

But also the only vulnerable models to MW are Kings(cloud of midnight) and Volturnos both of which have an easy defence against all ranged MW generation. 

I'm always shocked to see the direction AoS gamers have gone since the inception of AoS. The game is so much more safe than it was back in the day and yet everyone wants more safety. 

 

Maybe its just me, but I seem to come across a lot of MW. Warp Lightning Cannons in particular. But magic armies like Tzeentch pump out a ton of mortal wounds.

[DocKeule]

22 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

What MW spam? Honest question here. MW spam seems like a meme. There isn't much army tier MW generation around. The highest  volume is probably LRL but the MW they do is generalyl the totality of their dmg.

There is a lot of mortal wounds on the charge, some missiles (which we can direct I know), magic etc.

I dislike the whole concept as it is now pretty much. I think it sucks to not even get a roll with a small chance to avoid the damage. In my eyes, MW should be reserved for the mightiest weapons or crazy good roles. On the other hand in my mind mortal wounds should be just that with no protection other maybe an artefact. But just shrugging of MWs like it's nothing just makes the whole concept look silly.
 

33 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

But also the only vulnerable models to MW are Kings(cloud of midnight) and Volturnos both of which have an easy defence against all ranged MW generation. 

How do you get to this conclusion? The king/Volturnos is the only model we have to keep alive to use the (then) only command ability (which is a joke in itself). But if your army is decimated there is not much to buff an high tide.
 

35 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I'm always shocked to see the direction AoS gamers have gone since the inception of AoS. The game is so much more safe than it was back in the day and yet everyone wants more safety.

I think these are two different developments. On one hand there are crazy saves and aftersaves and bringing models back or summoning and so on. On the other hand there is the MW spam. IDK have little of all that.

Is has become hard (with some factions next to impossible) to remove a larger unit from an objective or the field with regular attacks. And that is crippling the game as well. I would prefer having more damage dealt with regular attacks back and forth. 

[HollowHills]

I dont really disagree with the comments about MW output and power creep.  I haven't been able to play a proper game since Feb, so I don't have much experience against the latest offenders for it.

I think the original intent for mortal wounds was that they would either come from magic (which can be countered by unbinding) or from rare critical hits on elite units.

Part of the issue is that magic has now reached a point where the armies who use it can pretty much guarantee their effects will go off, while everyone else ignores magic entirely.

For instance with deepkin there is basically no point in taking either of our wizards because if you play against a few different armies your chance of casting anything is zero.

The other thing to bear in mind is that as a low model count army we are naturally going to suffer against mortal wounds, so imbalance in that area is bound to hurt us more than others.

At the end of the day we are the second oldest book in play and I think we have to accept being on the weaker end of things for awhile. I wouldn't be surprised to see changes to the basic mechanics of magic in the new edition though.

[JackStreicher]

17 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

9 sharks 

Please call your List Sharknado.

[DocKeule]

Has anyone seen the guy on Miniwargaming, who built a sharknado as a custom model for the gnashing jaws endless spell?
 

52 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

...

That sums up the situation pretty well. 

And even when we eventually get a new tome we will hopefully have a moment in the sun and then the circle starts again. 

[whispersofblood]

15 hours ago, DocKeule said:

1. There is a lot of mortal wounds on the charge, some missiles (which we can direct I know), magic etc.
2. How do you get to this conclusion? The king/Volturnos is the only model we have to keep alive to use the (then) only command ability (which is a joke in itself). But if your army is decimated there is not much to buff an high tide.
3. I think these are two different developments. On one hand there are crazy saves and aftersaves and bringing models back or summoning and so on. On the other hand there is the MW spam. IDK have little of all that.
4. Is has become hard (with some factions next to impossible) to remove a larger unit from an objective or the field with regular attacks. And that is crippling the game as well. I would prefer having more damage dealt with regular attacks back and forth. 

1. I would argue the game has lots of individual methods of delivery. The reasonable observation is on the army list level, not the game level. How many MW that army lists can put out, and how that army can direct those MW. Even the "worst" offenders like LRL tend to put out almost all their dmg over a turn as MW, and almost no normal dmg on top. Which I think was by design to emphasis the elite nature of the army. Where I think the HWG types miss is that the game is not about DAMAGE, its about directing damage which is why Skinks are more powerful than Kroak, but Kroak(also Teclis) feel worse because of their apparent lack of interaction with the dmg.
2. Because there is only one sort of MW generation that IDK actually can't bypass and that is spell dmg. Shooting we can direct onto Eels which by nature of their profile(4 wounds), and boat placement for a ddr. Which means we can mitigate incoming damage, and that dmg needs to be heavily concentrated to reduce actual killing power. Teclis for example doesn't actually kill 1 Eel with White Searing Light on average. The reality is that Morrsarr guard are the worst offenders of MW damage, its a) Heavily concentrated, b) high volume, c) impossible to reliable manage/mitigate.
3. This is more of a subjective argument, which is heavily based on preference and perspective on life. Personally I like unique and interesting abilities and rules, it makes the game interesting and stops the chess players running away with the game much like WHFB 6th and 7th edition. Also IDK actually have all of the above, the resurrection is mediocre that is fair. But, the book is full of MW. King, Leviadon, Morrsarr, Boats. And, can ally in instant synergy with units like the Heralder.
4. Yeah that sounds like early AoS1, it wasn't very dynamic and games became very grindy, adding objectives didn't do much to change that much. The game is in a significantly more interesting place. I think people's arguments and opinions about the game are driven by the sheer number of factions, rather than the actual occurrence of specific mechanics in their played games. But, this is a subjective argument again based on personal preference. I like that if you play aggressively you can end a game by bottom of 3 as a contest. Its dynamic and encourages players playing on the front foot. I hated playing against Dwarfs in WHFB because unless you are happy just pushing your models forward, it was always better to just deploy on your board edge, not move and take a draw. 
   I don't think every faction can efficiently deal with all sorts of threats, which I think is a good lifelike (see;real) restriction on how a society can engage in armed conflict, some ideas are just contrary to that society. Large units are why getting things like bravery and battleshock right are so important. Personally I think there is room to add a negative bravery modifier to getting charged (possibly denying the bonus bravery for each 10 models). But the end of the day I don't think rolling dice for sake of feeling like you are interacting is actual real interaction.

[W1tchhunter]

On 11/10/2020 at 4:25 PM, Reuben Parker said:

Saying this won’t change competitive pay is a silly until things are tried. Considering IDK can do things now like.

fuethan reverse tides 

caster

2 scryer 

3x10 thrall / reaver 
2x3 shield eels

9 sharks 

can be 36 quality shots to thin out casters and or mortal wound spammers whilst still being very good in melee (their output is exceedingly close to spear eels as long as you get the 4th bite) Double scryer allows reserves and long bomb charges. 
 

yes most likely a whole army of sharks isn’t the way to go but still it’s an example. 

This sounds like my dream army, never say Sharks aren't the way to go 😛

[Drazhoath]

Good morning 

Yesterday I watched a battle report on YouTube and was a bit confused about the Idoneth player because he set up two full ships. But the FAQ say you only can set up two halves in total.

I am a bit curious now...

[alekusu]

24 minutes ago, Drazhoath said:

Good morning 

Yesterday I watched a battle report on YouTube and was a bit confused about the Idoneth player because he set up two full ships. But the FAQ say you only can set up two halves in total.

I am a bit curious now...

The FAQ says you cannot set up 4 halves.
You need to remember that 1 half and 1 full boat are both considered as 1 scenery, and you can set up two of those.

So you can do:

2 halves
1 half / 1 full
2 full

 

[Orchid89]

Can Akhelian King and Volturnos easily be magnetised? I was thinking of selling the spare one I get with my 2nd Bloodsurf Hunt box, but only if he can easily be magnetised.

Looks like the weapon and shield would need to be magnetised and the thing that goes behind them....

Might make it too fiddly.

 

EDIT: Also, how many of you magnetised your eels? 

I feel like I should wait for the new book to make any permanent decisions but that could be a while

Edited November 12, 2020 by Orchid89

[Kitsumy]

I didnt bother and builded the best loking akhelianking with spear, none will notice he isnt volturnos, and people arent as jackass as in 40k with he wysygysy thing. Voltu isvimpossible to magnetice since they both use different body part but same armor, u would need to cut parts like arms, to magnetice that, head is easy and back thing maybe dont be too hard.

 

But noone around me will conplain since it is a single hero, and dont have real difference. Same with avatar or sharks missiles, only magnetice in idoneth that bothers me are eels arms, i want to magnetice them but i dont really know how

[Rhetoric]

Good to see so much interest on this thread.  I’m going to be able to get some games in soon after I have the Morathi book in hand.  Really looking at Akhelian Corps with 15 Morrsarr, 3 Ishlaen, Allopex, and Leviadon with Volturnos and a Soulscryer w/Cloud of Midnight in Dhom-hain.