Kirjava13 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Better and better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envyus Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I don't see the issue with some units being battleline for certain factions. If you want to mix other things in you have clanrats as Battleline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riff_Raff_Rascal Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Kramer said: Also saw the biggest change by GW... rolling a 13 on the great bell doesn't auto win you the game!!! Awh shucks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said: Awh shucks. I know right! A mate suggested adding it back in just because. I almost agreed until I realised there might well be some way to modify the bell in the new edition. The sneaky Skaven ****** nearly had me before the book dropped (He always plays my Skaven against me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riff_Raff_Rascal Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 @Kramer Never trust us skaven players. Or should you? Trusting my advice is bad news. Or is it? By the way, where is everyone looking at these warscrolls? Was it the app? I don't have a smartphone but I have an android emulator on the pc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skavelynn Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said: By the way, where is everyone looking at these warscrolls? Was it the app? I don't have a smartphone but I have an android emulator on the pc. Yup they're all on the app. Warscrolls on the site and warscroll builder are not updated yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrycontra Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Envyus said: I don't see the issue with some units being battleline for certain factions. If you want to mix other things in you have clanrats as Battleline. There are multiple issues: First of all, clanrats are not cheap as far as battleline are concerned. In order to get minimum battleline requirements, you need 3x20 clanrats, that's 360 points. The only other alternative is stormvermin but that's even more expensive at 420 points. For army that wants to primarily focus on skyre stuff for example but wants to also add thanquol to their list have to spend 300+ points just to get basic battleline out and then add 400p thanquol. That is massive investment and army loses its skyre identity in the process and instead becomes "another generic skaven list". Then there is the matter of pestilence. With Skyre I can almost agree that skyre needs clanrats/stormvermin but pestilence? Pestilence already runs 100+ monks on average and now if they want to add something special, they need to get 30-60 models that don't fit aesthetically in pestilens army just so they can add some rat ogors (say pestilence player wants to convert rat ogors to be like plague rat ogors) or similar. It is restrictive system that shoehorns all lists to use same basic boring structure. The current battleline system even prevents pestilence utilizing their nurgle allies which is the biggest joke of all. Not to mention clanrats are faaaar worse than plague monks in basically everything. Final point is this: over past few years GW established multiple ways to play skaven faction. This book was supposed to be gloomspite gitz-style playground where players have great freedom in list building. Instead every mixed skaven list is forced to have that same basic dull setup. Also not everyone likes clanrats. I collect pestilence and skyre because I enjoy their looks but their ranges are too small so I want to mix them up more. I do like stormvermin but I'd rather wield them in single large unit than multiple min size units so the book doesn't leave me too many options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraxriket Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 @angrycontra are you sure they lose the ability to take allies? Because that would just go against the entire philosophy of the game. I would assume you could do with plague monks as battleline along with allied skaventide units in a pestilens army, no? Where is the rule that disallows this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirjava13 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 @Kraxriketall your units must have a clan keyword in order to gain that clan's battleline restrictions. All your units. So if you fancy allying in some Blightkings... well, now not all your units have the Pestilens keyword, and you can't take Plague Monks as battleline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 In one way I can see GW's angle in having pure clans, in the other it would have been neat for them to give each clan an option to go pure with allies since the ally system is already, what I'd consider, quite well restricted in AOS already. This might be one area where GW might make a change in the coming months after the Battletome has been out for a while. I'm all for pure armies and I'm heartened to see that GW has taken that side more than the other. It's a major attitude change and also a positive one that seeks to reinforce individual armies and faction identity. A great thing to see considering that they've huge "soup" problems in 40K with Marines and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirjava13 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 The way battleline has been organised in this book is... not good. Skaven 'clan' armies were restricted in their composition before, and are even more restricted now. I can't use any of my Clanrats! I've got 40. That was a nice fodder unit I could ally in before. Completely unusable now, unless I break them into two units of 20 for a Vanguard-level battle. If I seem really unhappy it's because GW has ensured that I have to fork out another €75 to make my army functional, whilst taking things away from me, unless I rely on the goodwill of my opponent in an unofficial setting. This is absolutely not what I was hoping for when I was excited about the prospect of more Skaven. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 There's always gain and loss with a tome/codex update. Sometimes its good to let the dust settle and see how things pan out. Might be that there's good reasons for these changes or that there are options you've not yet considered. Heck it might be that after mass playtesting GW could even be convinced to FAQ/Errata a change into the tome to "fix" the issue if it proves to be major enough (they are far more reactive to such things today). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirjava13 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Overread said: There's always gain and loss with a tome/codex update. Sometimes its good to let the dust settle and see how things pan out. Might be that there's good reasons for these changes or that there are options you've not yet considered. Heck it might be that after mass playtesting GW could even be convinced to FAQ/Errata a change into the tome to "fix" the issue if it proves to be major enough (they are far more reactive to such things today). This book, in a vacuum, is not a bad book. Hell, it's not even a bad book full stop- there are a lot of things I like about the rules, and there're a lot of new things I'm looking forward to trying (my painstakingly converted Jezzails finally have an excuse to get on the field, for instance). But it doesn't exist in a vacuum- it has come into a hobby environment where people have existing collections that cost a lot of money. I've got €150's worth of Stormfiends I can't use in the official rules now, my only recourse being to cut up these things I put a lot of time and effort and heart into, or buy more. It is difficult to imagine what the "good reason" for this might be, or what other option there might be. Apart from just not playing. Edit: I am extra irritated right now, having just been listening to Facehammer's episode on the book and listening to the three of them basically being smug and having a giggle about the Stormfiend changes. With a little luck I will not be so genuinely upset in the morning. Edited February 10, 2019 by Kirjava13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 @Kirjava13 I'm completely with you there and I think most everyone is. They went from a unit with clearly defined roles that did their jobs well to being nigh on unusable in comparison to so many other things. Really is a shame when I put so much work into them. It looks like they'll be getting replaced with Stormvermin or Gutter Runners at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envyus Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 5 hours ago, Kirjava13 said: @Kraxriketall your units must have a clan keyword in order to gain that clan's battleline restrictions. All your units. So if you fancy allying in some Blightkings... well, now not all your units have the Pestilens keyword, and you can't take Plague Monks as battleline. We don't know that. We have not seen the book and the guy that reviewed may have just not clarified that allies don't count. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envyus Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) I don't mind the stormfiend changes at all, It makes them more useable out of the box. And they went down in points to compensate. Edited February 10, 2019 by Envyus 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraxriket Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Envyus said: We don't know that. We have not seen the book and the guy that reviewed may have just not clarified that allies don't count. Exactly. From what I can see in the list page in the review video there's a small box saying allies: skaventide. Which should at least point to armies with specific keywords being able to ally a number of other skaventide models. That means pestilens only lost the ability to ally nurgle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herohammer Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) As someone who played fantasy competitively in 8th edition I have no problem with the storm fiend changes. Many many people ran units all kitted out in the same way in late 8th edition fantasy (with one tunneler) and they were pretty broken giving the unit a bad reputation in many circles, and giving a bad reputation to people running the unit. It is also in line with changes to other units that they have made. They want to make it so that every unit in the game can be built out of the box, no conversions or buying multiple boxes necessary. I think the inability to take allies and keep clan battle line will be day one errata faq as it technically prevents pesilense from being able to take nurgle allies since by taking allies they lose all battle line options preventing them from being able to form a battleforged army making the use of allies impossible. EDIT-Actually now that I think of it, there is quite a bit on the very first page of the rules section that the video review doesn't cover that I can't see that may explain the allies stuff. At the end of the army list it includes Skaventide as an ally option for the army which makes this the only book that lists its own allegiance as an ally option to the allegiance. I think the intent may be that you can ally in models from other clans using your 1/4 ally points and maintain clan specific battle line. Edited February 10, 2019 by herohammer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envyus Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 AKA people are once again jumping the gun and complaining despite not having all the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraxriket Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) Exactly. I'm not going to start the doomsday whining just yet. A lot of changes are scary and could end up detrimental, but most are interesting. Let's hope some synergy is in there so we don't get shafted by all the nerfs to shock gauntlets and multiple plague monk banners. Edited February 10, 2019 by Kraxriket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Num Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Envyus said: We don't know that. We have not seen the book and the guy that reviewed may have just not clarified that allies don't count. The Facehammer podcast had the same interpretation. All units need to be of the same clan in order to have the clan-specific battlelines. The only exception is the general, that can be Masterclan without breaking the battlelines. But actually, I don't think it makes such a difference... If you want Skryre with screen, you would have taken 40 clanrats (200pts) or 80 (400pts) as allies. Now if you still want screen, you can take 3*20 (360pts) or 40+2*20 (440pts) clanrats, go Skaventide, and still benefit from all the Skryre "allegiance" traits artifacts and else. Plus any other clan you fancy If you don't want this much screen, then unfortunately you don't have anything except acolytes or endless spells. Edited February 10, 2019 by Num 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kaven5lave Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I think the Masterclan general idea is a nice getout, it’s stopped me from throwing my toys out of the pram at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorokyl Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 6 hours ago, Kraxriket said: Exactly. From what I can see in the list page in the review video there's a small box saying allies: skaventide. Which should at least point to armies with specific keywords being able to ally a number of other skaventide models. That means pestilens only lost the ability to ally nurgle. Well. You can't take nurgle units if you run skaventide allegiance.... But, if you play maggotkin of nurgle allegiance you can run all the pestilens you want still (even 100% pestilens) because they have nurgle keyword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skavelynn Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) I do think GW could have balanced the Stormfiends better. They basically just removed/nerfed everything good about them and didn't buff the other weapon options that weren't that good, plus removed the ability for packmasters to buff them. Pure skryre doesn't seem like it will be all that strong anymore but we shall see, as others said don't want to assume too much before the tome is actually here and we playtest the new rules to figure out what works and what doesn't. Warp Lightning Cannons, Doomwheels and wizards are all seeming like they'll still be pretty good. I do predict that stormfiends will be replaced by rat ogres though for the most part, alongside some packmasters and a weapon team or cannon they'll essentially fill the stormfiend role for equal or cheaper points. Plague monks are also sounding like they're going to be absolute monsters. Edited February 10, 2019 by Skavelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 4 hours ago, sorokyl said: Well. You can't take nurgle units if you run skaventide allegiance.... But, if you play maggotkin of nurgle allegiance you can run all the pestilens you want still (even 100% pestilens) because they have nurgle keyword. You can't run a pure Pestilens force in Nurgle since you'll still need Non-Pestilens battleline! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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