AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[The_Dudemeister]

I am totally going to try understrength units for Spirit Hosts.

Pay for 6 but only bring 5. I waste a little over 40 points but the benefits are huge. Think of it as mini-Battalion

[Maxo Bug]

6 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I am totally going to try understrength units for Spirit Hosts.

Pay for 6 but only bring 5. I waste a little over 40 points but the benefits are huge. Think of it as mini-Battalion

That's a good one to try!

I was just thinking if reinforced units of SH were worthwhile. Now, my question is: aren't "understrength units" just those under minimum size? In this case, like just 2 SH?

I can't take a look at the rules now, and I had that idea.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Maxo Bug

[Bayul]

New marketing article about Nighthaunt in 3.0: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/20/the-soul-wars-are-over-but-the-nighthaunt-still-have-plenty-in-store-for-the-new-edition/

[Benlisted]

6 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I am totally going to try understrength units for Spirit Hosts.

Pay for 6 but only bring 5. I waste a little over 40 points but the benefits are huge. Think of it as mini-Battalion

Ysee I did think about this, but you can get a frontline of 4 with a unit of 6 with two at the back, only one fewer model than with a 5-model unit.  I'm not sure it's worth losing a whole base just to get one more in combat (certainly feels bad paying for 3 models but only getting two!)  Especially as once one dies you can just revert to the full line and get them all into combat anyway.

[dmorley21]

11 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I went down the Facebook rabbit hole. If their rants are to be believed then apparently every faction article released for this new ruleset has at least one mistake. The conspiracy is that it's because they are operating under different warscrolls than we currently have. If I were to take a guess, though, Occam's Razor would suggest the writers, players, and editors are just under a time crunch and aren't catching mistakes.

But a point was made that I don't see the rules making a call on: Suppose your line of Reapers is accompanied by a Spirit Tournament and are facing a unit with 5+ models. You decide to use the CA All-out Attack. 1: Do you get to choose if the unit benefits from RRall or RR1, or are you forced to use one over the other based on some order of operations? And 2: Does adding +1 to hit change the above at all or have another hidden caveat?

7 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

As far as I understand you should be able to use both. The only restriction I'm aware of for hitting is a +1/-1 cap after modifiers. It doesn't say anything about restricting rerolls.

Page 4 and rules 1.5.4 and 1.5.5 are what you need to look at here. 

The first thing worth noting, is that modifiers happen after the re-roll now, and not before. So you would never choose RR1 over RRall. And you can only ever re-roll a die once, so you cannot use both abilities. 

 

[CaptainSoup]

12 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Page 4 and rules 1.5.4 and 1.5.5 are what you need to look at here. 

The first thing worth noting, is that modifiers happen after the re-roll now, and not before. So you would never choose RR1 over RRall. And you can only ever re-roll a die once, so you cannot use both abilities. 

 

Yeah you're right I misread the question that's my bad lol. 

[mojojojo101]

So I've been thinking about Harridans vs Bladegheists today and I'm not sure which way to go.

Harridans are significantly cheaper and also feel a lot less reliant on a hero to baby sit them, particularly because they have 1 leader per 5 models vs the Bladegheists not having a leader at all.

Other other hand, with the new coherency might make retreat and charge on the Bladeghiests even more powerful for getting as many of them in range as possible.

I'm not sure which is better without playing some games but it feels a like a much closer call now.

[EnixLHQ]

13 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I am totally going to try understrength units for Spirit Hosts.

Pay for 6 but only bring 5. I waste a little over 40 points but the benefits are huge. Think of it as mini-Battalion

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. But, wouldn't just tucking the 6th one in the back accomplish the same thing? As well as give you an extra body to lose? Oh, wait, were you being sarcastic? 😬

I think this is either for armies that don't have a lot of small unit options like we do. Or for players who got a box set and just don't have a full unit's worth of models like any of us coming from a Soul Wars box.

 

7 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Page 4 and rules 1.5.4 and 1.5.5 are what you need to look at here. 

The first thing worth noting, is that modifiers happen after the re-roll now, and not before. So you would never choose RR1 over RRall. And you can only ever re-roll a die once, so you cannot use both abilities. 

 

I can't find the question on FB anymore (thanks janky FB search and sort), but I think the question was more about what happens when you have more than one type of buff on a unit. Are you forced to take one over the other, or does issuing a CA somehow alter that. 1.6.2 says you get to choose the order, 1.5.4 says you can only re-roll once, and the sidebar says that even though you can add as many + and - to hit as you want, the net result will cap at +/- 1. So in this case the Reaper player gets the +1 and an option for RR1 or RRall. And yeah, RRall is better.

 

12 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

So I've been thinking about Harridans vs Bladegheists today and I'm not sure which way to go.

Harridans are significantly cheaper and also feel a lot less reliant on a hero to baby sit them, particularly because they have 1 leader per 5 models vs the Bladegheists not having a leader at all.

Other other hand, with the new coherency might make retreat and charge on the Bladeghiests even more powerful for getting as many of them in range as possible.

I'm not sure which is better without playing some games but it feels a like a much closer call now.

It's going to be situational based on what you are trying to do.

Damage-wise here's their breakdown:

• A Bladegheist standing still does the lowest damage in this comparison.
• A BG standing still with a ST buff does the next lowest.
• A BG who charged does more damage than the above. A Harridan without any support does the same damage.
• A Harridan with a ST does the next most damage.
• A BG who charged and has a ST near by does the most damage.

This damage difference is negligible over each scenario, pretty much all under 1 damage until the Harridan with a ST where it goes over 1 (but still less than 2).

Utility-wise BG's retreat and charge is very nice to quickly get over units you want to ignore and move on to units you actually want to target. In this way a screen or blocking enemy unit is a slingshot, you only have to move and make a charge roll for that closer unit than you do the one behind it, and then on your next movement do it again. But, you also run the risk of that fight not going well for you and not having much to charge that second unit with. You can also just retreat and charge into the same enemy unit over and over if you want, just in case you need them dead, but I wouldn't consider doing that without ST support.

Harridans are almost the opposite kind of fighters. Damage-wise, every 5th model is going to get that 1 damage through more often, and allows them to stand and fight with the same efficiency as a BG unit that's mobile. Add to that the -1 to hit for all enemy models within 3" of a Harridan unit if their Bravery is less than 7, the Slasher Crone being able to issue CAs, and their 30 less points per unit, Harridans look like the best unit to use for dealing damage and staying one place to do it. That -1 to hit can be around another 10% less chance to be hit (with our saves/ethereal), so that unit will stick around 10% more of the time. This increases to 25% more if a hero is near by giving out our ward save.

[pikachoux]

This is my first AOS 3.0 list and I need some help.

Olynder

Guardian of souls

Khnight of shroud sur cheval

Krulghast cruciator

Spirit torment

20 chainrasp

20 chainrasp

10 Grimghast reaper

10 bladegheist revenants

10 bladegheist revenants

8 myrmourn banshee

I have 230 points left and I dont know what to take between one more grimghast reaper unit + an endless spell or a unit of harridan + endless spell. I also have glavewraith stalkers and 9 spirit hosts.

[Xil]

Black Coach is 220

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, pikachoux said:

This is my first AOS 3.0 list and I need some help.

Olynder

Guardian of souls

Khnight of shroud sur cheval

Krulghast cruciator

Spirit torment

20 chainrasp

20 chainrasp

10 Grimghast reaper

10 bladegheist revenants

10 bladegheist revenants

8 myrmourn banshee

I have 230 points left and I dont know what to take between one more grimghast reaper unit + an endless spell or a unit of harridan + endless spell. I also have glavewraith stalkers and 9 spirit hosts.

 

1 hour ago, Xil said:

Black Coach is 220

I'm a huge fan of the Black Coach. Definitely run that.

Also consider going heavier on the Reapers and switching the Bladegheists for Harridans to make it work.

[Aaranis]

I don't know what they were thinking with the coherency rules. I may be hyperboling but these rules just don't work with AoS. It works in 40k because units fight by rank, here in AoS it's per model range. So every 32+ mm unit in the game can't fight with more than one rank anymore ? It seems to favour shooting and magic even more as they don't have to deal with this, and get more tools to flee charges.

For those of us who don't own 30+ Reapers and don't want to buy them, Nighthaunts seem functionnaly broken. I honestly have trouble finding the will to try and enjoy AoS with this current ruleset. I'm surprised there isn't more outcry about coherency. And they delete FB comments about it.

[lare2]

For me, I just don't really care. These are the rules and this is what I have to work with. 32mm can't fight in two ranks? Meh.

I understand that everyone is different but for me I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. This is just one more rule from one more edition change that I'm gonna have to live with and develop both my army and my understanding of the game. 

[The_Dudemeister]

2 hours ago, Aaranis said:

I'm surprised there isn't more outcry about coherency. 

It's 80% of what people talk about for the new edition, almost completely neglecting all the other myriad changes with many hobbysites writing complete articles just about that. I can tell you, it won't take long until the topic gets annoying, like the endless discussions about the double-turn.

 

Other than that, I'm with lare2. It's a game mechanic and for better or worse, we have to deal with it... again, just the like the double-turn.

 

It's also not a targeted nerf for Nighthaunt, let's not kid ourselves. 32mm units are THE staple for the huge majority of factions. And I can only repeat that we even have the potential workaround of our main chaff being on 25mms and one of our main damage-dealing blob having 2" range. Which puts us above most other factions in this very general new game mechanic, because those tools are completely missing for most.

 

But yes, the new edition puts a very strange emphasis on shooting and magic and in this regard we're one of the Have-Nots. For now we have to wait at least for the early FAQ and then what the coming months show in real-world gaming terms. Theorycrafting only gets us so far.

[pikachoux]

8 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'm a huge fan of the Black Coach. Definitely run that.

Also consider going heavier on the Reapers and switching the Bladegheists for Harridans to make it work.

I just saw the post before mine and you have good points for the Harridans.  I think I will go with them. Having a champion is a big bonus. For more Grimghast, I could make a conversion with the Glavewraith stalkers instead. Any good endless spells for nighthaunt?

Thank you also for the  Nighthaunt guide. Will you update it with the AOS 3.0 rules?

[Aaranis]

25 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

It's 80% of what people talk about for the new edition, almost completely neglecting all the other myriad changes with many hobbysites writing complete articles just about that. I can tell you, it won't take long until the topic gets annoying, like the endless discussions about the double-turn.

 

Other than that, I'm with lare2. It's a game mechanic and for better or worse, we have to deal with it... again, just the like the double-turn.

 

It's also not a targeted nerf for Nighthaunt, let's not kid ourselves. 32mm units are THE staple for the huge majority of factions. And I can only repeat that we even have the potential workaround of our main chaff being on 25mms and one of our main damage-dealing blob having 2" range. Which puts us above most other factions in this very general new game mechanic, because those tools are completely missing for most.

 

But yes, the new edition puts a very strange emphasis on shooting and magic and in this regard we're one of the Have-Nots. For now we have to wait at least for the early FAQ and then what the coming months show in real-world gaming terms. Theorycrafting only gets us so far.

I didn't know about the discussions, I haven't looked in the right topics I guess, it reassures me somewhat that it's talked about.

But I don't agree that it's "just another game mechanic we have to work around" like double turn. Not going to start the debate here but I hate double turn, and this new rule too. If they changed the rules so that units didn't have melee range anymore I'd be fine with it, however this combination of two game systems doesn't work. I don't want to "work around" a key aspect of the gameplay, a game is supposed to be designed to be fun, not to invalidate my collection and make me dodge the shoddy parts of it. Bad game design is all there is. I'll try a handful of games when I can but if it doesn't work I'm waiting for the next battletome, errata or edition for AoS.

[LordPrometheus]

Yeah I'm gonna have to shelve my NH until they get a new tome. The current rules just don't work with what we want to be doing, and we don't get to benefit from a lot of the new fun stuff. It's ok for me though, because the new Stormcast tome is coming next month.

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, pikachoux said:

I just saw the post before mine and you have good points for the Harridans.  I think I will go with them. Having a champion is a big bonus. For more Grimghast, I could make a conversion with the Glavewraith stalkers instead. Any good endless spells for nighthaunt?

Thank you also for the  Nighthaunt guide. Will you update it with the AOS 3.0 rules?

I'll definitely be updating the guide. I'm waiting to get the complete books in my hand first. I pre-ordered, so it'll be soon.

As for endless spells, Chronomantic Cogs got an update that's still worth looking at. I've always been a fan of ones that thin out or interfere ranged units, so Purple Sun or Prismatic Palisade. But, with the new Endless Spell rules our own spells might be worth looking at again.

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

I didn't know about the discussions, I haven't looked in the right topics I guess, it reassures me somewhat that it's talked about.

But I don't agree that it's "just another game mechanic we have to work around" like double turn. Not going to start the debate here but I hate double turn, and this new rule too. If they changed the rules so that units didn't have melee range anymore I'd be fine with it, however this combination of two game systems doesn't work. I don't want to "work around" a key aspect of the gameplay, a game is supposed to be designed to be fun, not to invalidate my collection and make me dodge the shoddy parts of it. Bad game design is all there is. I'll try a handful of games when I can but if it doesn't work I'm waiting for the next battletome, errata or edition for AoS.

 

35 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Yeah I'm gonna have to shelve my NH until they get a new tome. The current rules just don't work with what we want to be doing, and we don't get to benefit from a lot of the new fun stuff. It's ok for me though, because the new Stormcast tome is coming next month.

The coherency rule is unfortunate, and a big change from what we're used to. But it's clear from the rule, unit sizes, reinforcement limits, and board size that the designers are moving away from giant hoard armies and dead first turns and are trying to make a smaller more dynamic game.

The coherency rule helps facilitate that. If we could still string out our units as we please then the smaller unit sizes would mean nothing and every army would just bring a single maxed-reinforced unit and fight it out. Armies with a ranged option would dominate even more because their screen would still be a hoard and they'd be removing models that weren't in play anyway. This rule at least means we have to bunch up our larger units, which means our opponents do, too, which means the likelihood of erasing a unit in the first combat phase is less likely.

This change is huge equalizer among the armies, which we really needed. It waits to be seen if a Cities all-ranged or a Lumineth all-magic army won't dominate, but that will be a problem everyone has to face, not just us.

I don't like how cohesion works now, but I'm excited to try it out, along with everything else.

[Bayul]

26 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Yeah I'm gonna have to shelve my NH until they get a new tome.

Same. I finished a second army (Ogre Mawtribes) a few months ago and despite the point hikes I could easily adapt to the the new battalions and instantly build a 3.0 list. Every unit has a purpose and benefits from the ogre's battle traits, its tribe and the new core rules. The NH models I own would create a generic list with redundant units and the every choice of the general is ineffectual. I think there is a lot of design space for NH rules-wise, but not in a monster-themed Ghur setting. I assume/hope NH will get a great anti-meta* battletome, as soon as AOS 3.0's story changes the realm.





*for a while.

[CaptainSoup]

So Sprues and Brews posted up their review of the GHB. Most of it is what we already know, though they did mention that there are additional "secondary objectives" to choose from. Some are interesting, while others are either monsters only or gives bonus points if achieved by monsters.

https://spruesandbrews.com/2021/06/22/generals-handbook-pitched-battles-2021-review-age-of-sigmar-3rd-edition/

Naturally it's a bit concerning since we have no monsters outside of our poor overcosted mourngul, giving those armies that do another distinct advantage.

[lare2]

At the minute, where do you place the Black Coach in army construction? The definition of Monster is a Behemoth that's not a leader. Would you put it here? 

[Neck-Romantic]

Personally I would rather the Coach be expanded to a hero and the Mourngul beefed slightly (or price reduced) and made a Monster

[Benlisted]

2 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Personally I would rather the Coach be expanded to a hero and the Mourngul beefed slightly (or price reduced) and made a Monster

The coach is ridden by a damn Cairn Wraith, a hero, and contains a Vampire (typically heroes), there is no good reason it shouldn't be one!

On Mourngul, does anyone know what the story is with FW stuff?  The points aren't in GHB apparently but the Monstrous Arcanum is listed as a legal rules source for Matched - does this mean it's likely getting an overhaul ala Endless Spells?

[CaptainSoup]

2 hours ago, Benlisted said:

On Mourngul, does anyone know what the story is with FW stuff?  The points aren't in GHB apparently but the Monstrous Arcanum is listed as a legal rules source for Matched - does this mean it's likely getting an overhaul ala Endless Spells?

The Sprues & Brews review speculates that due to the dwindling amount of AoS compatible products in the FW Store, the lack of new FW models and the lack of new points leads them to think that there is either an update coming soon or a slow move to Legends (models that have rules but are not encouraged by GW for play). The fact that the Monstrous Arcanum is still legal means that at least for the time being, they are still good for use, but no one really knows for sure right now what GW's plan is for FW models.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 hours ago, lare2 said:

At the minute, where do you place the Black Coach in army construction? The definition of Monster is a Behemoth that's not a leader. Would you put it here? 

The Black Coach is a monster as far as core battalions is concerned. But sadly does not have the MONSTER keyword, so it does not get rampages or count for grand strategies/battle tactics.