Benlisted

https://www.goonhammer.com/generals-handbook-2023-2024-the-goonhammer-review/ So the rules for the new ghb if not the points are out, how do we feel about them? Fighting in 2 ranks going away is a big deal for us and I feel like it really hurts scarlet doom and quicksilver dead - MSU which plays the new missions pretty well, or a big blob of reapers with hoarfrost support seem like the best builds now potentially. I'm not sure where I stand on the andtorian loci - whether to lean into it and take 2 gos + reikenor for three semi decent casters with MoM, primal dice and candles. Seen some talking about going 0 wizards due to the usual super casters still threatening to unbind everything but that locks you out of hoarfrost and makes several missions harder for you.

Finally got round to updating my points efficiency spreadsheet with the new points: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit?usp=sharing Not a huge deal has changed as the non-hero changes were pretty minor by comparison. Maybe I should add a sheet with the heroes...

Do mounts count as melee weapons and gain +1D as well?

The Host passing wound rules specifically prohibit any wards on either unit, passer or receiver.

What's the herohammer type of build looking like list wise? I'd assume Kurdoss and some LEs?

There's a few more actually though specific to units - Harridans get +1 to hit on their warscroll, coaches can give themselves a 5+ ward. Discorporate can be replicated by a harrow too. In terms of + to wound you have GoS, chainrasps charging, and harridans vs wounded enemies. In terms of + to attack you have lightshard, and reapers and dreadblades on their warscrolls. In terms of -1 damage, just the KC. In terms of -1 save, just wave of terror.

I think this is all fair for sure - if you need to actually deal a large chunk of wounds to something then either 2+/2+ bladegheists are going to be pushing through over 20 wounds before saves, or a big block of rasps and/or grims is the way. I think most lists will want a hammer and those undoubtedly hit higher absolute wounds dealt than harridans ever can thanks to their base size and 1" reach, and the boost to hit and wound capping at +1. But there's a limit to how many of those hammers we can support/fit in whilst still taking advantage of our excellent mobility, and for just bog standard brawlers that need minimal support (yes something to activate the buff but I don't think any NH unit should ever be alone anyway) I think harridans are the best bet. That's what I'm trying to make people aware of with the maths!

Check the second tab where I've got all self buffs on! They look even better there. You can also download a copy and adjust whatever you want to play with any combination of buffs.

This is a valid point - and one I was thinking about when comparing units. There's not that much difference between harridans and BGs even into low save units, and nothing has that amazing output so it's hard to find a real hammer. I think you're right that something like rasps/reapers or massed reapers have a role there as a unit that can actually wipe something in one go.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit#gid=249056940 Shared this a few pages back, check it out, it's where all the maths I was quoting comes from so you can see the hard numbers for yourself. You talk about comparing a charging BG to a harridan without their self-buff which I think isn't really fair - yes it's a bit harder to get harridan's off but we have an absolute ton of tools to do so, especially as it doesn't even have to be the unit they're fighting that's wounded, just something nearby. You can shoot the buffing hero and still have harridans benefit. I don't think your point on healing makes sense either to be honest though perhaps this is down to the misunderstanding that they don't get buffed from wounded not killed enemies? I think if anything it's actually the other way round though - BGs will never get their buff on your opponent's turn, harridans might if you activate in the right order. I don't think you have to take craventhrone to activate harridans' buffs - any other unit fighting first can do it though obviously this leaves them vulnerable. But you have: casts from any wizard, shooting from BC/banshee/olynder/chainghasts/craventhrone/krulghast, charges from hexes/BC/awlrach, fight linking from KoS. That is a list so long every list should have numerous options to achieve this anyway - you don't need to specifically build in something to help activate the buff. Anyway hopefully that clarifies my thinking!

Yeah I was a little boggled at the number of people doing harridans down given the numbers! Just to reiterate: Unbuffed harridans have our best damage output per point into 6+ and worse. However, the only thing better than them into 5+ and 4+ is myrmourns, and at 5+ the difference is negligible. Similarly at 3+ BGs do do better but only by a miniscule amount (in fairness though most of the other rend 1 units are within a hair of harridans here too though. Factoring in the buffs units can give themselves, harridans are our best output per point into anything 3+ and better, only at 2+ does stuff with rend pull ahead (and remember -1 from wave of terror makes 2+ effectively 3+). Charging BGs match them at 3+ and reapers into big units and myrmourns come close. In terms of expected damage for min units, without buffs harridans do 6.8 wounds into 4+, 4.6 into 3+. The best into 3+ (BGs) only do 5, the difference is minimal. But Vs no save units it's 13.3 Vs 10 for harridans Vs BGs, the next highest. With buffs harridans deal 10.3 to 4+ and 6.8 to 3+. BGs are doing 10 and 7.5 respectively, less than a wound in it. But for no save, you're looking at 20.5 Vs 15. To sum up, harridans are point for point our best output into basically everything bar 2+ saves and against high save stuff the difference is very small in actual numbers of damage dealt. Even without buffs you aren't doing better putting our rend -1 stuff into 3+ or worse units - only myrs are meaningfully better into 3-4+. Given their being cheaper than gheists and having inbuilt durability on the charge I think they are a great independent operator that doesn't need multiple moving parts or aura babysitting (****** you entirely within). Yes you need to do wounds prior to their combat, but spells, shooting, charges from several units, other fights, etc can all proc this fairly incidentally, especially as you will probably want to be multicharging anyway. And yes, they don't reach the output of a fully buffed bladegheist unit with 2+/2+ and an extra lightshard attack, but you are probably investing quite a lot into those buffs and even if that is the route you want to take, you can't give every unit those buffs all at once. I really do see harridans being a mainstay of the army! Also very much agreed that hexes look really good, the mobility is amazing and the charge MWs are also great. I see myself running a mix of hexes/hosts for bodyguard/harridans to be honest, and relying on MWs for downing the toughest targets.

I genuinely think it'll be rasps, 10 5+ wounds for 5-15 pts more than 4 4+ wounds is significantly tougher for a marginal price increase and much larger footprint/more bodies for objective control. 4 wounds on a unit is just way too squishy for nearly 100 pts for my liking. There's also tomb banshees cairn wraiths and torments which, if you have the hero slot, are quite possibly more attractive (hell, more durable) than min units with 4 wounds.

Cheers for the catch! Stupid me had dragged the formula down and forgotten to replace it with sums in the appropriate place for those units. Should be fixed now. New interpretation is... Unbuffed Harridans remain best vs low saves, with a bit of a gap to rasps > myrs > blades >> hexes > reapers > craventhrone (melee + ranged) = chainghasts > hosts which are all relatively close with a slightly larger gap after banshees. Glaives way out the bottom. For higher saves myrs best, then gheists = chains > reapers >> hexes > harridans. Notably harridans cease to be best at 5+ saves but only marginally. With self buffs vs low saves it's harridans then BGs pulling ahead more from rasps but reapers equal rasps. At high saves revs basically equal myrs with their buff, but reapers and harridans are both pulling respectably similar numbers. So the conclusion that reapers are more useable than my first pass showed is definitely right, though hexes being as good output wise as them (without buffs) and super mobile with MWs certainly means they have stiff competition... Another key thing to note is that harridans with their buff retain the best output up until 3+ where they only marginally lose to BGs, so they are the best option efficiency wise into most realistic targets if you can get a wound off first, bar the unkillable 2+ type stuff for which we can use MWs. Their debuff also probably renders them one of the most durable units point for point. And they don't need investment in +1 to hit and +1 to wound buffs unlike other units, saving a ton of points there.

So been updating my number crunching spreadsheet based on the leaks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit?usp=sharing Unbuffed Harridans are best vs low saves, with a bit of a gap to rasps > myrs > blades >> hexes > reapers > craventhrone (melee + ranged) = chainghasts > hosts which are all relatively close with a slightly larger gap after banshees. Glaives way out the bottom. For higher saves myrs best, then gheists = chains > reapers >> hexes > harridans. Notably harridans cease to be best at 5+ saves but only marginally. With self buffs vs low saves it's harridans then BGs pulling ahead more from rasps but reapers equal rasps. At high saves revs basically equal myrs with their buff, but reapers and harridans are both pulling respectably similar numbers. So that reapers are more useable than my first pass showed, though hexes being as good output wise as them (without buffs) and super mobile with MWs certainly means they have stiff competition... Another key thing to note is that harridans with their buff retain the best output up until 3+ where they only marginally lose to BGs, so they are the best option efficiency wise into most realistic targets if you can get a wound off first, bar the unkillable 2+ type stuff for which we can use MWs. Their debuff also probably renders them one of the most durable units point for point. And they don't need investment in +1 to hit and +1 to wound buffs unlike other units, saving a ton of points there. Durability wise hosts are obviously the best, and the 4-model units are nearly half as durable for the points, they are super frail (i.e. takes half the damage to kill 1pt of models). Some other observations on our sources of bonuses having done this: +atks Artefact - lightshard (once per game) BR charging GR vs 5+ models +to hit Olynder grief-stricken AOA - free with KOSOES, copy with DH DH if wounded Chainghast aura +to wound GoS CH charging DH if wounded Basically there are a ton less buff auras than we used to have, all the rerolls and effects on 6s we used to have are totally gone (though we also have a ton of debuffs now). There's also a number of different ways to ensure you get each bonus and given each is self-applied by some units you can possibly skimp on some support depending how you build your list.

Wave of terror -1 to save can stack! MSU might therefore be the order of the day..

Thanks both! I have been keeping half an eye on the competitive lists and have seen the gargant and Mannfred lists (and to a lesser extent Mourngul ones) doing well, but am keen to play something that doesn't need allies to prop it up (a bit of a tall order I know). The deathstar seems like the best performing pure NH build at the moment, hence my interest. dmorley - that was sort of my thinking on 30 reapers too - they don't get as strong buffs (healing from GoS and unconditional rerolls) but the extra save (and rend) does make them more of a brick. The 30/10 rasp/reaper build just didn't feel quite like a deathstar to me, it's only about 500pts of your army (though technically you could fit two in I suppose!) Enix - I had similar reticence about only running 20 rasp blocks, they just seem a bit too squishy. I think I'll need to get out some models and see how many I can actually fit into a 12" aura reasonably...

Following up the deathstar chat, can I ask about how many rasps/reapers people include in it? The photos a few pages back seem to suggest 30 rasps/10 reapers, but whilst I understand the need to have a blob that can fit in aura range I felt like this wasn't actually that many models to benefit from a ton of points in heroes. Would it be feasible to say do 2x20 rasps and 30 reapers or is that just way too many models for the aura ranges?

Looks like a basing detail to me - big NH monster please!!

I was largely being facetious, though it is always a little depressing when your army's "thing" gets done better by the new hotness, it erodes its identity a bit. Though arguably FT hasn't really been our thing since fantasy. But yeah, I am largely holding out for a new book for NH, which hopefully should be within the next 6 months or so. I've learnt never to expect anything from GW rules as a Tyranid player, but there's really only improvements from where we currently are so!

Honestly I'm still not over every random Kruleboy getting FT when only a handful of our warscrolls have it...

I guess on hexes it's the sort of thing where you would rather run then in 5s but your list doesn't have room for another unit without breaking the 1-drop. Though there is a bit more risk of the squad getting wiped then. Agreed, I don't think I would ever reinforce BGs or harridans these days, 20 1" reach 32mm models sounds really inefficient. On hosts I was sort of at the point where 6 sounded reasonable as a unit that could take a charge and stick around to hit back - and if one dies you get to stop caring about coherency and get them all into combat. But yeah, definitely not as a unit that goes out and finds something to kill.

I have yet to get games in but list wise I was on a similar page to you dmorley - one battle regiment of Emerald Host to try and pick first turn, meaning 3 heroes max and a Coach to maximise slots. The difference was I had been leaning hard into Hosts as I wanted to ensure I had enough MWs to deal with save buffing. Do you find that the 10-man Hexwraith squad is a bit unwieldy with new coherency and cav bases? However, I've just updated my Nighthaunt number crunching spreadsheet for 3e and to my surprise, our MW units aren't actually that efficient at dealing damage to high save units, other stuff comes out better. For instance, into 2+ units this is the damage per point through after saves from a few units (all with a ST buff as I wanted to add it for bladegheists so only fair to for the rest): Hosts = 0.027 Hexes (charging with EH +1 atk) = 0.025 Reapers (with reroll to hit active) = 0.021 Bladegheists (charging) = 0.032 Harridans = 0.030 Chainghasts (including shooting) = 0.024 I.e. actually our generic -1 rend mobs are just as if not more efficient than our frightful touch units even vs really high saves. It gets worse for the FT units looking at 3+ saves and up. (The caveat is, without the ST buff things are much closer, but even still all 4 of hexes/hosts/harridans/bladegheists are still within a 0.003 of one another.) So I think that improves my view of a Reikenor's Condemned list with some bladegheists for instance, and means I wouldn't spam as many hosts in Emerald Host. If you want to play around with the spreadsheet it's publicly available on this link, just save yourself a copy and go nuts: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nV9b3dJj4mSMok9nLjlPMzKGWhsu2ydfvV-M9sGKj7A/edit?usp=sharing

I agree that we are not looking to be climbing the totem pole relative to where we were in 2.0. That said, it's still an interesting exercise to work out what, under the new rules, is the optimal way to play NH (at least, it is to me..) Personally I am feeling the following: Emerald Host seems to > Reikenor's lot now, unless going for very specific rasp-heavy builds. I'm talking something like 4x20 perhaps. Rasps in general just don't seem to cut it as they once did to me, largely due to their points hike and reapers dropping, making them nearly equally efficient points wise for the wounds and ethereal save you get. Reapers in general seem like the gold standard if you want to go for blocks of wounds - the price drop helps vs rasps, and the 2" reach and being battleline vs the other 32mm stuff. With our hordes of 1w models going out of vogue slightly, I think hexes and hosts become more valuable - and MWs seem really useful with all the +save going around. Hexes are less good but in EH give you that crucial bodyguard, and can just be used as fast stuff otherwise. Hosts however I think have good mileage as a unit you can grab 6 of as a brick to take a charge (meaning some die letting you hit 5 or fewer models and ignore coherency issues) and making good use of our model regen abilities. With MSU more of a thing, the Coach and Mourngul both seem like more attractive options. Host spam with coaches for regen seems solid, and the Mourngul (assuming it's legal) isn't a terrible cheap monster, and can potentially be used to lure the opponent into picking missions giving them bonuses for killing them which we can deny with its mobility/holding it in reserve. Heroes I find I am taking far less of than in 2.0 when I would rarely leave home without 5-6. Now 3-4 is the norm. I think this is because the 1w units were more dependent on them, but if you shift away from that you need fewer heroes. I feel like with our mobility and fragility getting to pick who goes first will be absolutely key. We can compensate for a deployment being suboptimal and pounce on the opponent by going second. Lots of battle regiments will be good for this reason. The "keep battle line alive" strat is looking very appealing. With little reason to take bladegheists/harridans over reapers and potentially spamming hexwraiths/hosts, a huge chunk of our lists will likely be battle line. Just my thoughts having played around with lists and the rules so far, no games yet though.

Just a question in case I've missed anything - what's the status of Forge World models? I know we've not seen points for them yet, but I had also heard that the Acarnum was listed as a legal rules source still?

The coach is ridden by a damn Cairn Wraith, a hero, and contains a Vampire (typically heroes), there is no good reason it shouldn't be one! On Mourngul, does anyone know what the story is with FW stuff? The points aren't in GHB apparently but the Monstrous Arcanum is listed as a legal rules source for Matched - does this mean it's likely getting an overhaul ala Endless Spells?