AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Isotop]

Just now, Paniere said:

I don't think this rule applies for 2 reasons:

1) wording: changehost rule doesn't use "on the same spot" wording, but "take one model from each unit and have them spaw places on the battlefield"

2) Good sense: makes no sense to me that LoC can swap place with 1 pink but can't with 2 or more , when 40 pinks could swap with other 40 with no problem. Get the hell out my way I'd say!

The rules are not there to "make good sense". They abstract in different degrees to guide us playing the game. Maybe you could present your definition of two models swapping places - this would go a long way in discussing this topic.

[Paniere]

easy fix: "when swapping models with different base sizes, make sure that the space occupied by the smaller base is fully overlapped by the bigger one after the swap occurred , and the smaller base must be placed wholly inside the space occupied by the bigger base after the swap occured. ".

Edited July 4, 2019 by Paniere
better reformulation

[Isotop]

2 hours ago, Paniere said:

easy fix: "when swapping models with different base sizes, make sure that the space occupied by the smaller base is fully overlapped by the bigger one after the swap occurred , and the smaller base must be placed wholly inside the space occupied by the bigger base after the swap occured. ".

I see two problems with this definition:

1. There is no hard rules evidence for it. To be fair, neither is there for my proposition (using the center of the bases), but if there are two possible explanations, we should pick the easier one (which would be mine, see point 2 for this as well), would you not agree?
2. You run into a pretty weird situation, where you make two different positions on the battlefield identical with each other. Let me use a quick diagram to explain:

A and A' are two possible positions of a Lord of Change. B is the position of a Pink Horror. 

I guess we can agree that A and A' are different positions on the battlefield. 

Now picture the following scenario: A model switches its position two times. Each event is independent from the other. The first and the second switch happen with two different models occupying two different positions on the battlefield. I think it is pretty clear that the model should occupy two different positions after the switches. 

Looking at the diagram above, the Horror can indeed switch the position with two different models and yet retain the same position in both cases (following your definition of "switching positions"). This would indicate that A and A' were identical to begin with, which is clearly not the case.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Isotop

[Paniere]

22 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I see two problems with this definition:

1. There is no hard rules evidence for it. To be fair, neither is there for my proposition (using the center of the bases), but if there are two possible explanations, we should pick the easier one (which would be mine, see point 2 for this as well), would you not agree?
2. You run into a pretty weird situation, where you make two different positions on the battlefield identical with each other. Let me use a quick diagram to explain:

A and A' are two possible positions of a Keeper of Secrets. B is the position of a Pink Horror. 

I guess we can agree that A and A' are different positions on the battlefield. 

Now picture the following scenario: A model switches its position two times. Each event is independent from the other. The first and the second switch happen with two different models occupying two different positions on the battlefield. I think it is pretty clear that the model should occupy two different positions after the switches. 

Looking at the diagram above, the Horror can indeed switch the position with two different models and yet retain the same position in both cases (following your definition of "switching positions"). This would indicate that A and A' were identical to begin with, which is clearly not the case.

Despite your encomiable effort to make it clear using a diagram and despite my nuclear engineering degree (no joke here) , I miss your point. My feeling is that you are trying to prove your point (i.e. in some cases , due to its base size, LoC shouldn't be allowed to use the batallion ability  for which he's mandatory element btw) with some math . I gave a simple add on to the original rule to cover all possible cases and at the same time being pretty reasonable against exploits, since most players right now are  just picking a point below each pair of miniatures and make sure that part of their bases cover it after the switch, making the effective position after the switch 9"+2.5" for 2 units of pinks for example . This is just being greedy to me. My solution is more conservative. There's no gain in switching the same base sisez and  3" at most for LoC/blues or brims. However my opinion and yours are of little importance, let's wait for a faq.

PS: Calling our big chicken a "Keeper of Secrets" might upset acolytes around the worlds, we are into magic, not sodomism

[Isotop]

2 minutes ago, Paniere said:

I gave a simple add on to the original rule...

I guess that is the root of the problem. You really have to add something to the rule to make the "Lord of Change <-> Horror in a unit of at least 2 models"-switch possible. Understanding the "position of a model" as the center point of its base is the most simple and elegant understanding. Therefore, as I argues in the 1st point of the last post, we should use this interpretation about every other (more complicated) one. I would really like to hear why we should act otherwise - or why my perception of simplicity might be wrong.

Players wanting the rule to work as you suggested does not make it the correct usage.

[Paniere]

4 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I guess that is the root of the problem. You really have to add something to the rule to make the "Lord of Change <-> Horror in a unit of at least 2 models"-switch possible. Understanding the "position of a model" as the center point of its base is the most simple and elegant understanding. Therefore, as I argues in the 1st point of the last post, we should use this interpretation about every other (more complicated) one. I would really like to hear why we should act otherwise - or why my perception of simplicity might be wrong.

Players wanting the rule to work as you suggested does not make it the correct usage.

In one ideal world, GW designers and rules writers would be 'simple', 'elegant' AND exhaustive, covering all aspects of each rule without the need of faqs and designers' commentaries. But we all know in which world we do live don't we?

[Magnus The Blue]

 

9 minutes ago, Isotop said:

Understanding the "position of a model" as the center point of its base is the most simple and elegant understanding.

I disagree with this point, the centre or the base or any part of the base, are just as simple (and elegant).  No that I'm saying your wrong, I just don't think there is a strong argument for either over the other.

[Grimrock]

The changehost rule is terribly written and one of the most ambiguous rules out there, and trying to argue for one interpretation over the other really is pointless. There's no indication of what the devs meant by 'swap' and there's no indication of when a unit can or can't swap. If you want to artificially limit yourself because you think it's too strong then go for it, but there won't be a unified interpretation until GW cleans the rule up. 

Personally I would think that if the devs wanted it to be impossible for a large base to swap with a unit, which is a fairly common use case for the rule, they would have called it out specifically. Since they didn't I just try to swap as close to center as possible and leave it at that. Easy, quick, and no one has ever had a problem with it in my games.

[HMB]

Hello mates,

with this GHB I'm running this roster

Kairos

LoC with Magical Supremacy and Mark of Conjurer

Gaunt Summoner

Tzaangor Shaman

3x10 Kairic

9 Enlighted on disc

Endless:
vortex

cogs

spellportal

 

it has a nice damage output but against Nagash it suffers a little bit

[kleinemade]

Hi,

i have a question regarding the the mechanic of the Changeling within a changehost.

1^st Turn – I place the The Changeling within enemy’s territory, in my round I swap it with a unit of Pink horrors with the Changehost.

So Arch-deceiver is still working due to there was no enemy within 3’ of the Changeling.

2^nd Turn – At the start of my Hero Phase, my Pink’s are still alive and in combat with an enemy unit ( no Hero around ) – I swap this unit back and replace it by the Changeling.

So from my point of with Arch-deceiver is still working until an enemy Hero comes or I made an action or I am wrong ?

Thanks in advance

[Txivneeb]

16 hours ago, kleinemade said:

Hi,

i have a question regarding the the mechanic of the Changeling within a changehost.

1^st Turn – I place the The Changeling within enemy’s territory, in my round I swap it with a unit of Pink horrors with the Changehost.

So Arch-deceiver is still working due to there was no enemy within 3’ of the Changeling.

2^nd Turn – At the start of my Hero Phase, my Pink’s are still alive and in combat with an enemy unit ( no Hero around ) – I swap this unit back and replace it by the Changeling.

So from my point of with Arch-deceiver is still working until an enemy Hero comes or I made an action or I am wrong ?

Thanks in advance

The changeling cant be part of a changehost. And thus you cant use the changehost ability to swap places with the changeling

[Pestilens]

30 minutes ago, Txivneeb said:

The changeling cant be part of a changehost. And thus you cant use the changehost ability to swap places with the changeling

He can, he is a horror hero. 

[Txivneeb]

5 minutes ago, Pestilens said:

He can, he is a horror hero. 

Ahh yeah. Had missed that part  My bad

[Bazakahuna]

18 hours ago, kleinemade said:

Hi,

i have a question regarding the the mechanic of the Changeling within a changehost.

1^st Turn – I place the The Changeling within enemy’s territory, in my round I swap it with a unit of Pink horrors with the Changehost.

So Arch-deceiver is still working due to there was no enemy within 3’ of the Changeling.

2^nd Turn – At the start of my Hero Phase, my Pink’s are still alive and in combat with an enemy unit ( no Hero around ) – I swap this unit back and replace it by the Changeling.

So from my point of with Arch-deceiver is still working until an enemy Hero comes or I made an action or I am wrong ?

Thanks in advance

RAW if it hasn't charged (see P3 of errata for this adition), attacked, cast or unbound  a spell, or if it is not within 3" of an enemy Hero then Arch-deceiver should still be in effect. Using the Battalion ability that doesn't do any of those listed actions shouldn't remove that (I believe).

However... if you switch him for a unit already in melee then he HAS to attack (see P230 of Main Rulebook, "you cannot pass if there is an eligible unit from your army that can fight) and therefore break Arch-deceiver.

You could suppose conga-line the unit so some of the members remain outside of 3" from your opponent  and you could swap him for one of them, meaning he would not be eligible to attack.

This is my take, happy to hear if it's wrong.

 

 

 

[Reezark_SP]

18 hours ago, kleinemade said:

Hi,

i have a question regarding the the mechanic of the Changeling within a changehost.

1^st Turn – I place the The Changeling within enemy’s territory, in my round I swap it with a unit of Pink horrors with the Changehost.

So Arch-deceiver is still working due to there was no enemy within 3’ of the Changeling.

2^nd Turn – At the start of my Hero Phase, my Pink’s are still alive and in combat with an enemy unit ( no Hero around ) – I swap this unit back and replace it by the Changeling.

So from my point of with Arch-deceiver is still working until an enemy Hero comes or I made an action or I am wrong ?

Thanks in advance

As long as the Changeling didn't do any of the things that would cause Arch Deciever to deactivate (cast spells, unbind, attack, etc) then I dont see a reason why this would not work.

[Landohammer]

Hey guys, just in case you were still on the fence about the Gaunt Summoner with Familiars, looks like the new GHB 19 FAQ put it to bed.

Q: "If a unit's Pitched Battle profile is not included in the General's Handbook 2019 or its Official Errata document, can it be used in a Pitched Battle?

A: "No"

 

 

[Acid_Nine]

Hey, been dabbling with occult knowledge and tried to make a few tzeench lists, but I'm kinda stuck. I want to run a Pyrofane cult list, but don't really know how to make it work completely. It looks good on paper, but it feels like I'm missing things, particularly with the heros. I want a good Killy hero as the general that's also a mortal, and while the fate master seems like the natural choice I'm a little underwhelmed. Any advice?

[Landohammer]

8 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

Hey, been dabbling with occult knowledge and tried to make a few tzeench lists, but I'm kinda stuck. I want to run a Pyrofane cult list, but don't really know how to make it work completely. It looks good on paper, but it feels like I'm missing things, particularly with the heros. I want a good Killy hero as the general that's also a mortal, and while the fate master seems like the natural choice I'm a little underwhelmed. Any advice?

So as fun as Pyrofane list sounds, it is going to cost you 440pts in battalion tax alone. So while I love the fun special rules these battalions provide, i worry that it might be a bit of an handicap competitively since you only have 1560 points left for actual units. 

That being said, if you want a mortal character, consider the Ogroid Thaumaturge for killy fighting, and Gaunt Summoner for killy casting. If you somehow manage to squeeze tzaangors of any kind into your list, the Tzaangor Shaman is great for buffing them.

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So as fun as Pyrofane list sounds, it is going to cost you 440pts in battalion tax alone. So while I love the fun special rules these battalions provide, i worry that it might be a bit of an handicap competitively since you only have 1560 points left for actual units. 

That being said, if you want a mortal character, consider the Ogroid Thaumaturge for killy fighting, and Gaunt Summoner for killy casting. If you somehow manage to squeeze tzaangors of any kind into your list, the Tzaangor Shaman is great for buffing them.

yea I figured that, but it still seems like it could be fun, particularly the cabal and wytchfyre coven. would it just be simpler to play those two seperately?

 

here is what I made: 

Fatemaster (120) - General - Command Trait : Incorporeal Form  - Artefact :  Sentient Weapons  
Magister (140)
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
Magister (140)
UNITS
40 x Kairic Acolytes (300)- battleline
40 x Kairic Acolytes (300)- battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)- battleline
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened (300)
BATTALIONS
Arcanite Cabal (180)
The Pyrofane Cult (140)
Witchfyre Coven (120)

Edited July 9, 2019 by Acid_Nine

[Lightbox]

15 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

yea I figured that, but it still seems like it could be fun, particularly the cabal and wytchfyre coven. would it just be simpler to play those two seperately?

 

here is what I made: 

Fatemaster (120) - General - Command Trait : Incorporeal Form  - Artefact :  Sentient Weapons  
Magister (140)
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
Magister (140)
UNITS
40 x Kairic Acolytes (300)- battleline
40 x Kairic Acolytes (300)- battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)- battleline
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened (300)
BATTALIONS
Arcanite Cabal (180)
The Pyrofane Cult (140)
Witchfyre Coven (120)

You've definitely got good number and the enlightened with shaman will do you well but you may crumple a bit if you get hit by something hard though 40 man units along with destiny dice or command points for ignoring battleshock will go a long way to help keep those big units around long enough to tarpit your foes.

Do you get much use out of the fatemaster yourself? I've never found him to be all that useful besides his high movement.

[Acid_Nine]

7 hours ago, Lightbox said:

You've definitely got good number and the enlightened with shaman will do you well but you may crumple a bit if you get hit by something hard though 40 man units along with destiny dice or command points for ignoring battleshock will go a long way to help keep those big units around long enough to tarpit your foes.

Do you get much use out of the fatemaster yourself? I've never found him to be all that useful besides his high movement.

this is all theory crafting on my part. and the fate master is the one thing I have trouble justifying in the list myself. I want a beat stick, and he's the nearest we have in the cabal.

[Lightbox]

1 minute ago, Acid_Nine said:

this is all theory crafting on my part. and the fate master is the one thing I have trouble justifying in the list myself. I want a beat stick, and he's the nearest we have in the cabal.

I've never found him to be too beaty unfortunately. If you can find points then the ogroid may give you more bang for your buck in being beaty and casty. Otherwise a tzeentch marked daemon prince could work, though depends if you want explicity arcanite units.

[MattyP]

The changehost battalion states that if there are 9+ units then 2 pairs can be swapped....does the LoC count as a unit? Meaning that the changehost has 1 LoC and minimum 8 other units and  could swap 2 pairs of units....correct?

[Paniere]

yes

[MattyP]

Here's a Changehost list i'm toying with atm....thoughts? love the idea of so many spells but not sure if i should drop a few endless spells for another hero or not

--Leaders--

LoC

Gaunt Summoner

Blue Scribes

--Units--

10 BLues

10 brims

10 Brims

10 PInks 

10 Pinks

10 Pinks

--Endless Spells--

Balewind

Cogs

Purple Sun

Pallisade

Geminids

Burning Head

Pendulum

Shackles