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AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion


Gaz Taylor
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I agree with the concept of improving the Tzaangor and that Transient form and alter-kin need a little work.  Nothing major, just something focused on Tzaangor.  Perhaps something non-daemon characters turning into spawn and the ability allowing Tzaangor that die to fight again similar to the acolytes,

I really like the simple idea of making them min size 5.  I wouldn't hate the ornate totem being simplified as well.  Simply giving a bonus to the unit to simplify their scroll a little.

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5 hours ago, Marius au said:

I agree with the concept of improving the Tzaangor and that Transient form and alter-kin need a little work.  Nothing major, just something focused on Tzaangor.  Perhaps something non-daemon characters turning into spawn and the ability allowing Tzaangor that die to fight again similar to the acolytes,

I really like the simple idea of making them min size 5.  I wouldn't hate the ornate totem being simplified as well.  Simply giving a bonus to the unit to simplify their scroll a little.

Problem is Tzaangors cost way to much to have any kind of focus on them. Now if their warscroll was changed and thier points came more in line with Acolytes then maybe Transient Form + Alter-Kin might work. But as it stands a single full unit of Tzaangors is needed and thats over 1/4 of your points in a standard 2k list. Thats not something you can really build around.

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The easiest fixes to alter-kin coven would be to allow 1-2/3 or 1+ of both the acolytes and tzaangors or drop the cost to like 60-80 points where we could run multiple (although thats not an ideal fix).

As far as cult of the transient form goes it either needs more power, or less restrictions (but probably not both).

For power I would love to see Tzaangors also get to roll, and if they get a 6 you can add an enlightened or skyfire to a nearby unit.

As for restrictions either the range should be increased significantly (18" at least) or let us add the tzaangor model to the kairic unit. This would certainly be quite a bit more complex ruleswise (the tzaangor warscroll has a lot on it) but would be super cool.

 

As for Tzaangor in terms of base warscroll comparisons (no buffs) 10 of them actually hit harder than 10 'ardboys (vs a 4+), their damage just falls off a cliff as soon as they dip below 9 models. It makes them tough to point since if they were costed cheaper they'd punch way above their weight in big units. I'd like to see the warscroll modified so their base damage is a bit higher but their horde buff is weaker.

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On 3/3/2021 at 11:51 PM, Gesundheit said:

I know horrors are realy durable, but if I want to use them as battleline i lose 660P with no damage(!) and my list is an autobuild after that. I got nearly 10k points of Tzeentch and I just play a few of these models. Flamers are realy strong and Deal a lot of damage, but I don’t want to spam them to deal damage! I mean you guys a really right in many of your points, but I hoped for much more. Why no tzaangor general on foot? I don’t want to mix army’s.... 

Like I said I won’t be happy, but that’s how it is.😅 I am thankful that some of you are on my side.🤷🏼‍♂️
But I can understand anyone who likes the battletome😊👍

 

Horrors are only a "loss" of 420 points max. You gotta pay your battleline tax and your cheapest options is Screamers. Honestly you can get away with only 1 unit of Horrors, especially in casual games.

Edited by Sinfullyvannila
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Biggest problem with tzaangor and acolytes is just the existence of horrors at their current point cost. At the end of the day they would have to be brokenly good at killing things to match the horrors' broken resiliency. If horrors were twice as expensive people would consider tzaangor or acolytes and would find that they are really fine compared to other army's battleline.

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@herohammer Theoretically each one should have a role, so that they don't need to compete at the same job. Horrors are durable, Tzaangors should be a melee grinder unit, and acolytes need a push into a useful role for the army. That way each unit offers something the others don't.

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1 hour ago, herohammer said:

Biggest problem with tzaangor and acolytes is just the existence of horrors at their current point cost. At the end of the day they would have to be brokenly good at killing things to match the horrors' broken resiliency. If horrors were twice as expensive people would consider tzaangor or acolytes and would find that they are really fine compared to other army's battleline.

No they aren't.Anything on 25mil instantly blows them out of the water on actual tabletop performance. Thats a problem with 32mils in general. Offensive units on 32mils are hideously difficult to balance.

Edited by Sinfullyvannila
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I've notice a lot of boards saying this seems to be one of the top competitive Changehost list.  I have yet to try out a Changehost list and I was just wondering if going MSU with the flamers like they are here is still good.  I was under the impression that 2 units of 6 flamers was the best for absorbing buffs but then you have to figure out other weaker daemon units to fill out the Changehost requirements.  Also was wondering what sort of role the Fateskimmer would play in a list like this.  Thanks!

Changehost 2021.jpg

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How do you build your Kairic Acolytes and Tzaangors? I've been thinking about Shields since these units are rather weak in melee so I'd rather use them as screens and objective holders. What's your take on this?

Did anybody try to play two Lords of Change?

Do you think it is  worthwhile to play Kairos Fateweaver?

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1 hour ago, Aeryenn said:

How do you build your Kairic Acolytes and Tzaangors? I've been thinking about Shields since these units are rather weak in melee so I'd rather use them as screens and objective holders. What's your take on this?

Did anybody try to play two Lords of Change?

Do you think it is  worthwhile to play Kairos Fateweaver?

Tzaangors make awful screens and objective holders because they cost too much for it. I've had some good results taking them in 20s and supporting them (but thats a big chunk of the army).

Shields are definitely the way to go with tzaangors at the moment, dual blades do a bit more damage, but 6/10 already have special weapons anyways, and in bigger units you'll only be attacking with special weapons.

I think shields are better on acolytes too since they're very unimpressive in melee and rerolling 1s doesn't really help them much.

Kairos has his place in the army for sure. At the very least guild of summoners appreciates his extra spellcast and different warscroll spell, plus a flat 6 mortals can be very effective at killing characters.

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On 3/16/2021 at 10:41 PM, Cambot1231 said:

I've notice a lot of boards saying this seems to be one of the top competitive Changehost list.  I have yet to try out a Changehost list and I was just wondering if going MSU with the flamers like they are here is still good.  I was under the impression that 2 units of 6 flamers was the best for absorbing buffs but then you have to figure out other weaker daemon units to fill out the Changehost requirements.  Also was wondering what sort of role the Fateskimmer would play in a list like this.  Thanks!

More or less, yeah it's still the best next to Archaon builds.. if you have 9-12 Flamers and an Exalted or 2 then that's a template to work off of. You go MSU so they cannot be focus fired down and since the list you posted doesn't have Fold Reality, then you don't need larger units for that purpose.. the only buffs Flamers take are aura's so they can still stick together but be individual units. If it were me I'd change Firestorm with Bolt since doing at least 1 MW is better than potentially nothing.. or Fold Reality for the Horrors.

As for the Fateskimmer; it's roaming around with the Flamers and giving them +1 to wound from the aura. 9\10 times you're using Changehost to teleport around Horrors and not Flamers unless you have an opportunity to make an important trade (since they will likely die if out in the open) with them.

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On 3/22/2021 at 2:39 PM, Gwendar said:

As for the Fateskimmer; it's roaming around with the Flamers and giving them +1 to wound from the aura. 9\10 times you're using Changehost to teleport around Horrors and not Flamers unless you have an opportunity to make an important trade (since they will likely die if out in the open) with them.

But arent you already gonna have the Fatemaster roam around with the Flamers for the reroll 1s to hit already? I dont really see the purpose of the Fateskimmer and would probably rather have more Flamers/Exalted Flamers instead of him.

I really liked watching how Anttu played in a castle formation where everything was within range and slowly moved a deathball forward. 

 

On another note - Im curious if anyone has played this double bird Changehost list that Dannii played in the Butcher's Tribe team event. Looks quite interesting imo. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
 

Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
 

Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
 

The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Battleline
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 84

2 drop list with quite a lot of spell damage output. The 2 Exalted Flamers is an interesting pick imo. I see them as a way to deal with Hordes without having to spend 260ish pts on a Manticore, which is almost useless against non-horde armies, where as the Exalted Flamers still put out OK damage. 

Turn 1 you could have Kairos cast Blue Scribes reroll spell, have the Blue Scribes use the Spellportal on a 2+ then cast Gift of Change through it. Prior to this you could Changehost teleport the Lord of Change forward to snipe something else. 

Im a bit worried about bodies, but you get 6 Screamers from Host of Arcanum and with the amount of casts, you could quite quickly summon 10 Blues or even 10 Pinks by turn 2. Might be OK. 

Sad you cant fit in Geminids, but I actually think Aethervoid Pendulum is underrated against armies that really want to get up close like Ironjawz, IDK eels etc. D6 MWs across multiple units can be a lot! Obviously Darkfire Daemonrift is superior, but we cant slot that in here. 

Edited by Kasper
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37 minutes ago, Kasper said:

But arent you already gonna have the Fatemaster roam around with the Flamers for the reroll 1s to hit already? I dont really see the purpose of the Fateskimmer and would probably rather have more Flamers/Exalted Flamers instead of him.

I really liked watching how Anttu played in a castle formation where everything was within range and slowly moved a deathball forward. 

 

On another note - Im curious if anyone has played this double bird Changehost list that Dannii played in the Butcher's Tribe team event. Looks quite interesting imo. 

2 drop list with quite a lot of spell damage output. The 2 Exalted Flamers is an interesting pick imo. I see them as a way to deal with Hordes without having to spend 260ish pts on a Manticore, which is almost useless against non-horde armies, where as the Exalted Flamers still put out OK damage. 

Turn 1 you could have Kairos cast Blue Scribes reroll spell, have the Blue Scribes use the Spellportal on a 2+ then cast Gift of Change through it. Prior to this you could Changehost teleport the Lord of Change forward to snipe something else. 

Im a bit worried about bodies, but you get 6 Screamers from Host of Arcanum and with the amount of casts, you could quite quickly summon 10 Blues or even 10 Pinks by turn 2. Might be OK. 

Sad you cant fit in Geminids, but I actually think Aethervoid Pendulum is underrated against armies that really want to get up close like Ironjawz, IDK eels etc. D6 MWs across multiple units can be a lot! Obviously Darkfire Daemonrift is superior, but we cant slot that in here. 

Yeah, typically but to be honest I don't think you really need the Fatemaster. With Mutability and an Exalted nearby along with shooting at a unit of 10+ models they're already at 2/2 and the Fatemaster is RR all hits.. I'd rather have a Blue Scribes. RR hits with that good of a profile only gets them ~1 more wound.. of course a case can be made vs them shooting at something with Lo,S but even at a 4/2 profile 3 Flamers will do ~5-6 wounds.

I think if you're playing Changehost Flamer Spam the best method is to be a deathstar in most cases; far too many people want to use CH to move Flamers and alpha strike something off but it's very rare I find that worth it.. I just noted that you could do it if someone wants to make that risk assessment in their own game. For awhile I ran it with a Soulscream Bridge to emphasize this but found it wasn't really doing enough for the cost. I think if anything is going to be teleporting in CH it's going to be Horrors.



You cannot teleport the LoC and I sincerely hope they weren't doing that in any games. It's a common mistake but it quite clearly says "pick 1 other friendly unit from the battalion" meaning it can't be the LoC. As for the other aspects, yeah it's basically just a heavy casting version of a Changehost. In my heavy casting lists I typically get at least 10-12 FP per turn but this is without Changehost as it doesn't provide any benefit other than lower drops which wasn't needed. I experimented briefly with HA + Flamer lists combined with lots of spell damage but it just didn't shake out really.. 2 Exalted Flamers will put out ~7 wounds vs a unit of 10.

Currently the most successful casting list other than what I ran in Butchers Buffet has had 6 Skyfires and a Bray Shaman. Still tweaking it and have thought of including a LoC + Kairos over some other wizards.. but the goal is 10 FP per turn, consistently and that combo eating up half nearly half a list makes that hard. People are tired of CH + Flamers and I think this is why you see so many trying to integrate Flamers into HA lists. I won't say it doesn't work since it clearly does for some, but I think if you want to stay competitive with shooting at a large tournament then you're still going to stick with 9-12 Flamer lists in EC+CH.

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17 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah, typically but to be honest I don't think you really need the Fatemaster. With Mutability and an Exalted nearby along with shooting at a unit of 10+ models they're already at 2/2 and the Fatemaster is RR all hits.. I'd rather have a Blue Scribes. RR hits with that good of a profile only gets them ~1 more wound.. of course a case can be made vs them shooting at something with Lo,S but even at a 4/2 profile 3 Flamers will do ~5-6 wounds.

I think if you're playing Changehost Flamer Spam the best method is to be a deathstar in most cases; far too many people want to use CH to move Flamers and alpha strike something off but it's very rare I find that worth it.. I just noted that you could do it if someone wants to make that risk assessment in their own game. For awhile I ran it with a Soulscream Bridge to emphasize this but found it wasn't really doing enough for the cost. I think if anything is going to be teleporting in CH it's going to be Horrors.

Right I remembered him being an aura of reroll 1s to hit, not all hits. Thats a "tad" better. :D Arent the Flamers on 3/2s unless they shoot at a 10+ unit?  Base 4 with +1 from an Exalted nearby. The reroll increases consistency and is nice for sniping heroes. I believe Anttu ran with 2x6 Flamers and 2x1 Exalted Flamers, so thats quite a bit of firepower you are buffing with reroll all hits. 

17 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

You cannot teleport the LoC and I sincerely hope they weren't doing that in any games. It's a common mistake but it quite clearly says "pick 1 other friendly unit from the battalion" meaning it can't be the LoC. As for the other aspects, yeah it's basically just a heavy casting version of a Changehost. In my heavy casting lists I typically get at least 10-12 FP per turn but this is without Changehost as it doesn't provide any benefit other than lower drops which wasn't needed. I experimented briefly with HA + Flamer lists combined with lots of spell damage but it just didn't shake out really.. 2 Exalted Flamers will put out ~7 wounds vs a unit of 10.

Currently the most successful casting list other than what I ran in Butchers Buffet has had 6 Skyfires and a Bray Shaman. Still tweaking it and have thought of including a LoC + Kairos over some other wizards.. but the goal is 10 FP per turn, consistently and that combo eating up half nearly half a list makes that hard. People are tired of CH + Flamers and I think this is why you see so many trying to integrate Flamers into HA lists. I won't say it doesn't work since it clearly does for some, but I think if you want to stay competitive with shooting at a large tournament then you're still going to stick with 9-12 Flamer lists in EC+CH.

I didnt actually watch their games so cant comment on them teleporting LoC - But good catch! I have yet to play with Changehost but actually thought it was anything from the batallion you could teleport.

I guess 7 damage from 2 Exalted Flamers isnt that amazing and it goes up around 9 vs 20+. Enough to cause battleshock and/or put a serious dent into a 10/15 man unit. I liked the idea of retaining a fair bit of casting but at the same time going significantly down in drops, also the mobility from teleporting Horrors around. This is also with Be'lakor waiting around the corner, likely changing massively (most likely going 400+ in pts) in his Broken Realms book in some months (?).  

Im not sure what else I would switch the 2 Exalted Flamers for, still need that count of 8 for Changehost.

But yeah, it was also an attempt at playing something else than mass Flamers that people are incredibly tired of even talking about by now. :P

Edited by Kasper
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5 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Right I remembered him being an aura of reroll 1s to hit, not all hits. Thats a "tad" better. :D Arent the Flamers on 3/2s unless they shoot at a 10+ unit?  Base 4 with +1 from an Exalted nearby. The reroll increases consistency and is nice for sniping heroes. I believe Anttu ran with 2x6 Flamers and 2x1 Exalted Flamers, so thats quite a bit of firepower you are buffing with reroll all hits. 

I didnt actually watch their games so cant comment on them teleporting LoC - But good catch! I have yet to play with Changehost but actually thought it was anything from the batallion you could teleport.

I guess 7 damage from 2 Exalted Flamers isnt that amazing and it goes up around 9 vs 20+. Enough to cause battleshock and/or put a serious dent into a 10/15 man unit. I liked the idea of retaining a fair bit of casting but at the same time going significantly down in drops, also the mobility from teleporting Horrors around. This is also with Be'lakor waiting around the corner, likely changing massively (most likely going 400+ in pts) in his Broken Realms book in some months (?).  

Im not sure what else I would switch the 2 Exalted Flamers for, still need that count of 8 for Changehost.

But yeah, it was also an attempt at playing something else than mass Flamers that people are incredibly tired of even talking about by now. :P

4/2, +1 from Exalted and +1/+2 from shooting a unit of 10-20+ so they can get to 2/2 since 1's always fail. But yeah I mean there's a case for a Fatemaster with 12+ Flamers.. consistency is king in Tournaments. Now that I think about it I ran a Skimmer + Fatemaster myself with a bunch of flamers and it was just a mobile gun battery separate from the spellcasting core surrounded by Horror screens.

I'm with you though.. may as well keep them in that particular list. There are enough 10-man chaff units running around that they can blast off for cheap.. just don't think they'll be doing a lot against 40 man units or things with multiple wounds. Just another tool in the toolbox.

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The extra point of rend on the exalted is pretty relevant as well (especially against rerolls), and the damage per point of flamers and exalted flamers is very similar, obviously flamers are better with the +1 to hit from the exalted but 2 exalted flamers are cheaper than a unit of flamers and 1 exalted.
unbuffed Flamers damage per point vs a 4+ save:0.0208125
unbuffed exalted flamers damage per point vs a 4+ save:0.0267

I normally don't like using damage per point as a comparison between units, but this is a case where it can be relevant.

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1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

The extra point of rend on the exalted is pretty relevant as well (especially against rerolls), and the damage per point of flamers and exalted flamers is very similar, obviously flamers are better with the +1 to hit from the exalted but 2 exalted flamers are cheaper than a unit of flamers and 1 exalted.

I believe this is the reason a few people were giving HA Changehost lists a shot and filling them with 4-6+ Exalted Flamers and loading up on Pinks\Spellcasting to compensate for the absurd damage of EC Flamer Spam.

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19 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The extra point of rend on the exalted is pretty relevant as well (especially against rerolls), and the damage per point of flamers and exalted flamers is very similar, obviously flamers are better with the +1 to hit from the exalted but 2 exalted flamers are cheaper than a unit of flamers and 1 exalted.
unbuffed Flamers damage per point vs a 4+ save:0.0208125
unbuffed exalted flamers damage per point vs a 4+ save:0.0267

I normally don't like using damage per point as a comparison between units, but this is a case where it can be relevant.

I agree, but I think there is an arguement for bodies (like a unit of 6 Flamers) but also Fold Reality.

You could obviously just go full chad mode and bring a single unit of 6 Exalted Flamers. 😎

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Somebody tried The Unbound Flux ? im really like tzeentch army from last codex( there we use 8 endlesses and 40 pinks), but new codex makes army ranged focused rather then magic focused. May be Unbound Flux can solve some of this problems? 

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On 3/28/2021 at 2:17 AM, simakover said:

Somebody tried The Unbound Flux ? im really like tzeentch army from last codex( there we use 8 endlesses and 40 pinks), but new codex makes army ranged focused rather then magic focused. May be Unbound Flux can solve some of this problems? 

If you want to run a magic focused list, I would argue Hosts Duplicitous for the free RR's is the better option.. hell, even Guild. Flux is only giving 1 caster a +1 to cast and any spell cast that does MW's to a unit will do 1 more on a 4+ to that unit; not exactly good by any stretch of the imagination. I've posted plenty of spellcasting lists and I ran them competitively for ~4-6 months with good success. Unfortunately against the current meta shooting armies it can struggle a bit since it's hero-based. If you play vs something without hero-sniping capability it's great.


Speaking of lists, have a couple to run by you all if you're looking to try anything new. I don't post much anymore but IRL games may be starting again soon and I'm looking at starting up my batreps again with the following lists:

Varanguard

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 10x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 10x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield

Units
6 x Varanguard (560)
- Daemonforged Blades

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 96

Essentially an Archaon list, but with 6 VG instead. With Daemonforged weapons you're looking at similar output as Archaon and you get to fight again if there's still something within 3" effectively doubling that damage (~36 wounds vs a 4+ on average per pile-in) and actually ending up a bit higher than Archaon with 10 more wounds

OG Casting (slightly modified)

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 10x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 10x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 10x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 100
 

This is essentially my original casting list, but without Be'lakor (since he's due to be changed into who knows what) and adding in 6 Skyfires. Now, anyone who's seen me post before knows I sing praises about Skyfires; yeah, they're overcosted but they aren't as horrific as everyone seems to think. They're a bit dual-purpose and make your opponent (who will undoubtedly beat you on drops) think a bit about their 40" threat range taking out one of their support characters. Since they get RR's by attacking first you can easily get them to clear an objective of a chaff unit since fully buffed they're generally throwing out ~20 wounds vs a 4+ save. Are they going to take down 20 Hearthguard or 30 Phoenix Guard? No, but that's not their purpose; you have a ton of MW's via magic and a few ways to stack negative modifiers on units to take care of situations like that. This will generally get out at least 10 FP a turn unless you roll absolutely horrifically.

Obviously if you like you can drop Skyfires for Enlightened or a StD unit + Sorc Lord or switch around the casters. This could be ran in GoS too and in that scenario you just use the Changeling as a RR battery.. I just enjoy summoning inescapable Horrors every turn and getting free RR's to casting and unbinding without worrying about rolling to get the RR's that I always end up rolling a 1+ for.

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