AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Xyxel]

Gaunt Summoners are not HORROR HEROES. You don't have a valid Change Host Battalion there.
And with 5 drops You risk being first turn charged (teleports, charging after running, etc.)

[Grotruk]

 

7 minutes ago, Xyxel said:

Gaunt Summoners are not HORROR HEROES. You don't have a valid Change Host Battalion there.
And with 5 drops You risk being first turn charged (teleports, charging after running, etc.)

He doesn't want to play changehost, in fact 😜
 

[Xyxel]

Why would a shooting/magic army without screens resign from Change Host?

[Sumanye]

36 minutes ago, Xyxel said:

Why would a shooting/magic army without screens resign from Change Host?

Probably because he think flamers are cool, but at the same time he still likes having friends 😛

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Xyxel said:

Why would a shooting/magic army without screens resign from Change Host?

They are living life on the edge. Some times it's fun to play risky. 

 

 

Either way I think I'd throw a unit of Pink's in that list.

[simakover]

That do you think about Kairos? is there way to use him at spell heavy lists? 

 

[mmimzie]

26 minutes ago, simakover said:

That do you think about Kairos? is there way to use him at spell heavy lists? 

 

Kairos is pretty good. Lots of folks are liking him now thanks to his 3rd spell cast making him quite strong. 

 

That said I prefer the LoC the command ability is a nice force multiplier in our list making our magic phase quite a bit more consistent.

[NJohansson]

3 hours ago, Sumanye said:

Probably because he think flamers are cool, but at the same time he still likes having friends 😛

Yes part of it. Moreover it feels like everyone is focusing on Changehost. I think it will be erated sooner or later and do not like playing the exact same as everyone else. Moreover I feel that there are a lot of army’s that will just get slaughtered by the Changehost/flamer/horror combo and I prefer to play a game and not just walk over my opponent (tournament setting is something else and I would probably gravitate towards a more optimal build).

[Nokrah]

Are tzaangor, enlightened and skyfire still worthy?

[Sinfullyvannila]

17 minutes ago, Nokrah said:

Are tzaangor, enlightened and skyfire still worthy?

They hit even harder than they used to with our agendas.

[Sinfullyvannila]

3 hours ago, simakover said:

That do you think about Kairos? is there way to use him at spell heavy lists? 

 

I’d run him in Guild of Summoners.

[Sumanye]

31 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I’d run him in Guild of Summoners.

I agree.  I think Kairos is great when you want to run a Fatemaster but also want a LoC.  Since you’ll probably spend your CP on the Fatemaster, 20 more points for Kairos with an extra spell is very attractive.  In Guild of Summoners, you can have a Fatemaster and Kairos and then summon a LoC and still have extra CP for Beacon of Sorcery.  It’s win win.

[SoulBlightDryad]

On 1/17/2020 at 2:39 PM, Sinfullyvannila said:

Yeah he’s pretty insane. Give him Treason of Tzeentch and he’s also debuffing additional -1. I consider him 160 though because I include Tome of Eyes in his cost since he doesn’t have a warscroll spell. Also, with pinks not giving Fate Points, having an extra cast is not as valuable as it would have been before.

Still an absolute steal though.

Why would pinks NOT give a fate point? They are casting a spell, that should count if it is successful. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

29 minutes ago, SoulBlightDryad said:

Why would pinks NOT give a fate point? They are casting a spell, that should count if it is successful. 

They don’t give fate points when they die is what I meant.

Extra casts were more important then because it was far more likely for each spell to contribute topping off the fate points for blue Horrors.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[OkayestDM]

Fun thought concerning the Changeling. Give him the Artifact that eats an enemy artifact on an unmodified 6 to hit and drop him more than 3 inches from an enemy hero toting something scary/cheesy (looking at you Ethereal Amulet.) Make a 3 inch charge and Destiny Die a 6 to hit. 

Not necessarily a sporting choice, and there's a few things that would have to pan out for it to work, but certainly a good tool to have in the box.

The downside of course is that you're almost certain to loose him without ever getting to benefit from his spells or abilities.

[Gwendar]

27 minutes ago, OkayestDM said:

Fun thought concerning the Changeling. Give him the Artifact that eats an enemy artifact on an unmodified 6 to hit and drop him more than 3 inches from an enemy hero toting something scary/cheesy (looking at you Ethereal Amulet.) Make a 3 inch charge and Destiny Die a 6 to hit. 

Not necessarily a sporting choice, and there's a few things that would have to pan out for it to work, but certainly a good tool to have in the box.

The downside of course is that you're almost certain to loose him without ever getting to benefit from his spells or abilities.

Being unique\named The Changeling can't take an artifact, so that wouldn't work unfortunately.

[OkayestDM]

 

1 minute ago, Gwendar said:

Being unique\named The Changeling can't take an artifact, so that wouldn't work unfortunately.

Oh shoot, I didn't realize it was a unique character. That would have been very thematic for the model.

Probably just as well though.

[NJohansson]

So after tonight I have now played with the Guild of Summoners 7 times. While very fun to summon a Lord of Change turn 1 and a second one turn 2 (at the latest turn 3) I am starting to feel that it is not as strong as other Covens have the potential to be due to the following:

1) Forced to take lackluster artifact/traits.

2) No summoning (realistically) after the second LoC. Compared to a normal list where I would be able to summon 10 Blues every round (if lucky maybe even 10 Pinks) you give up a lot both in damage, wounds and board/objective control in the long run.

3) Realistically past turn 3 regular summoning becomes better so you are basically playing handicapping yourself while not getting any really good bonuses from the Coven (compared to the other alternatives). 

Anyone else had the same experience or am I missing something?

[AverageBoss]

2 hours ago, NJohansson said:

So after tonight I have now played with the Guild of Summoners 7 times. While very fun to summon a Lord of Change turn 1 and a second one turn 2 (at the latest turn 3) I am starting to feel that it is not as strong as other Covens have the potential to be due to the following:

1) Forced to take lackluster artifact/traits.

2) No summoning (realistically) after the second LoC. Compared to a normal list where I would be able to summon 10 Blues every round (if lucky maybe even 10 Pinks) you give up a lot both in damage, wounds and board/objective control in the long run.

3) Realistically past turn 3 regular summoning becomes better so you are basically playing handicapping yourself while not getting any really good bonuses from the Coven (compared to the other alternatives). 

Anyone else had the same experience or am I missing something?

You are potentially summoning 760 points worth of units in the first two to three turns of the game. This is vs. summoning 300-380 points worth of units for the same effort in the same amount of time. I don't think it makes our summoning bad, it just makes it different.

Its trading long term flexibility for short term punch. Do you want a rifle with attachments, or a rocket launcher? They serve different roles but do the jobs they were made for well.

Edited January 19, 2020 by AverageBoss

[Neffelo]

2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

You are potentially summoning 760 points worth of units in the first two to three turns of the game. This is vs. summoning 300-380 points worth of units for the same effort in the same amount of time. I don't think it makes our summoning bad, it just makes it different.

Its trading long term flexibility for short term punch. Do you want a rifle with attachments, or a rocket launcher? They serve different roles but do the jobs they were made for well.

I think the main problem is that you get diminishing returns with LoC, unlike most of the other greater daemons out there.  I think that's the only reason why this coven exists, is because GW understood that multiple LoC really arn't that scary and fate points are relatively hard to come by.  So yeah, while you are technicallly getting 760 points worth of units, I don't really think they are worth the points after the first one. 

[mmimzie]

I think you are going guild of summoners it's if you are starting with an LoC with a magic heavy list, and you are bring lots of pinks so you can ignore all the battle shock test. It actualy has lots of cross over with the host duplicitous in my opinion. 

The extra CP goes a long way in increasing you spell damage output, and the artifact lets you ignore the battleshock

[AverageBoss]

11 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

I think you are going guild of summoners it's if you are starting with an LoC with a magic heavy list, and you are bring lots of pinks so you can ignore all the battle shock test. It actualy has lots of cross over with the host duplicitous in my opinion. 

The extra CP goes a long way in increasing you spell damage output, and the artifact lets you ignore the battleshock

You can take a LoC to start, or you can take 3 other casters for his cost and go magic heavy in that way. I think both routes are viable, and I personally will be trying out the latter first.

40 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

I think the main problem is that you get diminishing returns with LoC, unlike most of the other greater daemons out there.  I think that's the only reason why this coven exists, is because GW understood that multiple LoC really arn't that scary and fate points are relatively hard to come by.  So yeah, while you are technicallly getting 760 points worth of units, I don't really think they are worth the points after the first one. 

They both get 2 spells. They both get 2 dispells. They can both auto stop an Endless Spell. They both benefit from mastery of magic. They can provide decent support fire and ping damage with rods. And they can do all of this covering two completely different areas of the table. Not to mention the wonders of redundancy when things go wrong, or when one dies earlier than expected. I don't think its particularly scary (but neither are the 30 blues or 9 screamers you could summon over the same time period or longer for the same number of points), but I do think they are impactful and can get work done.

I personally am looking forward to a potential 16 spells a turn with my initial list and summoning two birds to the table.

[Neffelo]

Just now, AverageBoss said:

You can take a LoC to start, or you can take 3 other casters for his cost and go magic heavy in that way. I think both routes are viable, and I personally will be trying out the latter first.

They both get 2 spells. They both get 2 dispells. They can both auto stop an Endless Spell. They both benefit from mastery of magic. They can provide decent support fire and ping damage with rods. And they can do all of this covering two completely different areas of the table. Not to mention the wonders of redundancy when things go wrong, or when one dies earlier than expected. I don't think its particularly scary (but neither are the 30 blues or 9 screamers you could summon over the same time period or longer for the same number of points), but I do think they are impactful and can get work done.

I personally am looking forward to a potential 16 spells a turn with my initial list and summoning two birds to the table.

Yes, they all get two spells, but since they only get one lore spell and infernal gateway, means that start hit the diminishing returns on arcane bolt and mystic shield unless you are packing a lot endless spells. 

The dispelling multiple endless spells is the same situation. Besides Tzeentch very few armies run that many endless spells. I'll often see 1-2 max, and that's if you didn't dispell it in the first place. 

Even the two dispels is the same thing. Most armies aren't casting 6 spells a turn. 

Additionally, you are adding all this spell-casting power, to the army that has already been geared to casting a lot of spells to generate the fate points for summoning.  It starts to be less and less optimal because of this. 

Again, the reality is that the first LoC is incredibly powerful, and force multiplier, but you get diminishing returns when you have multiple, and as of right now I don't see that the benefit is worth it over the power that some of the other covens offer. 

 

[Fazhak]

For those interested in running a Phantasmagoria of Fate battalion...

Over in the Beasts of Chaos discussion thread, players recently asked for an account of how Beasts of Chaos play out of different Chaos God allegiances. In the past, others requested the same.

I started a new thread to address this issue. I provide a quick overview of each allegiance, as well as the Beasts of Chaos allegiance itself, in that thread.

Here's a link: 

Hope it is helpful and interesting. I look forward to the conversation!

[mmimzie]

You 100% bring your own endless spells most of the list we have here are running a near constant 2 or 3 endless spells and to get these working effectively you only really need to push that to maaaaaybe 4.  As your first LoC can use his warscroll and lets say you start with one and summon 2 than that's only 2 endless spells they need to have in thier pocket, pendulum, gemnids, and/or simulacrum.  I actualy really like simulacrum i was meh on the things right away but a solid 3 mortal on most targets or 4/5 on wizards feels quite nice, and the long range lets you launch the thing turn 1 along side gemnids. 

I've run the list 3 times and have had a great success so far. The large horde of pinks  do wonders for holding objectives, access to easy set up and go bridge keeps me mobile, and the wizards put out the damage where. The birds either give me more damage to push or a quick easy body to let me better take the table early on.  They also get easy access to that +1 save agenda that isn't too bad for getting a tanky bird to hold down a side of the table. 

I just look at 10 blue horrors or even 20 or 30 and they feel ineffective in comparison for pushing the table when my list is already 50 pink horrors strong.