AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[ShaneHobbes]

Is it 100% confirmed MBMK has a 4+ save now?

[PainfullyMediocre]

3 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Is it 100% confirmed MBMK has a 4+ save now?

It was taken from a new style instruction book, so pretty much. Unless the Rippafist changes it to a 3+, but we won't know until the book drops.

[ShaneHobbes]

Honestly I would be okay with a lot of heroes going to a 4+ save with an ability on their warscroll giving them + 1 save - making them realistically never better than a 3+. There is too many 2+ heroes in this game atm and capping most of them at 3+ (looking at you Archeon) is fine by me.

[Carnith]

For the record, I hope the ardboyz are misprint. Though I'm surprised at how much vitriol I've gotten thrown my way on the different social media for just posting this. 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, C0deb1ue said:

I get that, I just don't think it's particularly "devastating". Yeah its a good change and they were severely lacking before (especially vs ard boyz) but it's hardly game changing. Anyway still need the rest of the info.

It's the functional equivalent of every other unit in the game getting -1 save, while it may not seem massive remember that a unit of 10 brutes is often going to be buffed with the +1 damage.

That's the difference between -1 and -2 vs an unbuffed 4+ save. You're more likely to do 12+ damage with -2 rend than you are to do 10+ with -1. It's actually really important.

1 hour ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Honestly I would be okay with a lot of heroes going to a 4+ save with an ability on their warscroll giving them + 1 save - making them realistically never better than a 3+. There is too many 2+ heroes in this game atm and capping most of them at 3+ (looking at you Archeon) is fine by me.

I'd rather they just removed save rerolls. I really hope it's a full blown 3+ and not a 4+1.

1 hour ago, Carnith said:

For the record, I hope the ardboyz are misprint. Though I'm surprised at how much vitriol I've gotten thrown my way on the different social media for just posting this. 

It's a massive nerf that hits them in multiple different ways, both the -1 to hit and the loss of the rend are painful enough dropping to bravery 5 is just kicking them when they are down.

[Carnith]

Who knows, could be some rule of battleshock immunity if they are in combat. Its super weird for orcs who like to fight, get into the fight and suddenly flee because they took a casualty. 

[ShaneHobbes]

12 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I'd rather they just removed save rerolls. I really hope it's a full blown 3+ and not a 4+1.

By all accounts it sounds like they are going to be 4+ on their stats. The +1 would be the best scenario given that info. But I agree save rerolls need to go away.

 

Also they mentioned Kragnos in the Orruk book. Hopefully that means he goes down 150+ points. In no world should his current scroll be more than Morathi or even Gotrek (who needs to go back up 100)

[Carnith]

Maybe Ironclad changes to a 3+ base? 

 

I'd love for more choices in the book to allow for more meaningful decision making. 2/6 interesting traits is just poor design. Same goes with artifacts. When most aren't looked at, then they need to reassessed. We have amulet of destiny and make someone a wizard are artifacts everyone can take. Artifacts have to be better than that. GW should design the books to encourage pure book usage. 

[SunStorm]

Depends if Ardboyz still have the banner option to give them +2 bravery right? 

[Malakree]

46 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

Depends if Ardboyz still have the banner option to give them +2 bravery right? 

I'd have thought you'd just reduce the banner to +1 in that case. 

 

1 hour ago, ShaneHobbes said:

By all accounts it sounds like they are going to be 4+ on their stats. The +1 would be the best scenario given that info. But I agree save rerolls need to go away.

On the killaboss with stabgrot warscroll it has

Quote

The save characteristic of a Killaboss with Stab-grot armed with a Boss-Hacka and Skareshield is 3+ instead of 4+

So it's not unreasonable to think there might be a similar rule for the riptooth fist.

[Nezzhil]

On 9/5/2021 at 2:49 AM, Carnith said:

I was at my local games workshop, I asked if we could look at it. Manager was interested as he plays ironjawz as well so he was game to open his ardboy box. I looked at it and pulled up the app to check the differences. I obviously can't take a picture as it was in the store with their employee standing over me.  

 

It looks like this?

[Carnith]

 

3 hours ago, Nezzhil said:

 

It looks like this?

It was the new style. Had only one weapon line. But the combat profile was the middle weapon. 

[The Damascus]

https://spruesandbrews.com/2021/09/11/new-orruk-warclans-battletome-2021-review-age-of-sigmar-3rd-edition/

 

Brutes new ability looks great. Waaagh got changed. And only 4 spells in spell lore.

[Warfiend]

Doesn't look great for Ironjawz, we lost a lot.

Ironjawz Waaagh is a once per battle buff now. +1 charge and +1 rend for all Ironjawz units.
Mighty destroyers  and Smashing and bashing is the same
Eager for battle is gone.

Went from 6 to 3 Megaboss command traits:

We had:
Hulking Muscle-bound Brute
Live to Fight
Brutish Cunning
Ironclad
Bestial Charisma
Mighty Waaagh!

and the new tome has:

Hulking Brute D3 mortal wounds on a 2+ after charge (on one unit in range of choice)
Mega Bossy Can use mighty destroyer even if it is already issues
Mighty Waaagh! Leader Reroll charge rolls wholly within 12 if you issued a waaagh.

From 3 to 2 Ironjawz Wizard (was Weirdnob shaman) Command Traits:

We had:
Dead Kunnin'
Master of the Weird
Bursting with Power

and we get:

Touched by the Waaagh!  before casting a spell pick a unit within 6, deal d3 mortal wounds and add the mortal wounds to the casting roll. (doesn't have to be friendly, but if the caster chooses himself and dies from the wounds the spell doesn't go off).
Master of the Waaagh! Pick one extra spell (not cast 1 extra).

Went from 6 to 3 artifacts for the Megaboss
Weirdnob artefacts are gone.

On the Mawkrusha:
Destructive bulk now deals 3(4 if gordrakk) extra mortal wounds if you use the stomp monstrous rampage.
gets +1 save from using the riptooth fist profile.

Brutes:
New rule: Units within 3 with a wound characteristic of 1 cannot contest objectives.

Ardboys:

New rule: If this unit uses rally when a warchanter is within 12, models come back on a 4 instead of a 6.

Footboss:
gets two new rules: can fight if it gets killed in combat and hasn't fought yet.
and: when it issues a command it can choose 2 unites to receive it instead of one.

Looks like it's gonna be footbosses and brutes.

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Warfiend

[Kasper]

Uff, a lot of stuff removed from the Ironjawz point of view it seems. Ironsunz no longer grants -1 to be hit and only gives you the charge CA at the end of the enemy charge phase like now. Bloodtoofs gives essentially a different Mighty Destroyers at the end of the combat phase - I assume Pigs can fight twice then?

[Orkmann]

A lot of stuff removed, but here and there there are buffs as well. I think Ironjawz get out of this new tome situation quite nicely - esp compared to the savage bros.

[Kasper]

Feels like they are really pushing Kruleboyz hard. A lot of stuff removed from Ironjawz. Big Waagh seems really difficult to rack up points. 

[5kaven5lave]

Oh man, I just don’t know what to think now 😅. No allies between Orruk factions is a bit of a gutpunch. Think I’ll just pick models I like and do a Big Waaagh!! soup to begin with and see what’s good. Are there any written points lists about?

[Warmill]

Mighty destroyers actually got a massive nerf in that it's only pile in not fight, but at least we can spam it again for movement.

[Boggler]

I would really like to fast forward in to the future and get all the battlestomes out so that we can see exactly what GW wants us to do. As it stands, there is no 5-0 Ironjawz list. 4-1 is going to be a tough dps check.

Did the Weirdnob tax go down? Points drops for Ardboys, GG's, Warchanter, Megaboss?

The official MBMK 4+ save is true. +1 save with a rip toof. Ironclad gone. Mount traits are bleh.

[Orkmann]

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Oh man, I just don’t know what to think now 😅. No allies between Orruk factions is a bit of a gutpunch. Think I’ll just pick models I like and do a Big Waaagh!! soup to begin with and see what’s good. Are there any written points lists about?

I might just missed stg in the videos, but isnt it that we are just one happy faction now? So no need to even be allied.  What is stopping me to have ardboy battlelines in a kruleboyz army for instance?

 

Edit: so you cannot.  that was described on the page which was missing in the facehammer video. So apparently the only way to mix the various orcs is Big Waaagh. That really sucks

Edited September 11, 2021 by Orkmann

[Malakree]

So initial thoughts skimming through the review video.

Battle Traits etc.

• Where has my +1 to charge gone? Why has it been rolled into the waaagh, why would you do this 
• +1 rend for a turn is awesome and the fact its board wide is just fantastic!
• Ironjawz waaagh isn't a command ability.
• Mega bossy is the return of double MD, absolutely awesome.
• Mighty Waaagh! Leader is interesting for the no CP charge reroll bubble on the Waaagh! turn.
• Touched by the Waaagh! is actually quite a cool option, potential +3 to cast and also gives a point click d3 mortals. Intresting with the Arcane Tome artefact as it would give you a 2d3 mortals for your hero phase.
• The Megaboss Artefacts are alright.
• The mount traits are all actually kinda cool. Could easily see a use for all of them.

Spell Lores/Clans

• FOOT OF GORK IS BACK BOYS!!! A bit nerfed but still awesome.
• Ironsunz is still great
• Bloodtoofs and Da Choppas warclans aren't abilities, they are just passive abilities!
• The new Bloodtoofs ability is crazy good.

Strategies

• Show 'em who's boss is bad. It's just a worse version some of the core strategies
• Waaagh! is slightly different than hold the line, generally will be worse but situationally could be good.
• Krump 'Em All is a cool option.

Tactics/Battalion

• Time to Get Stuck In! is an amazing option to have, Limited to turn 1 and 2 but it's still awesome.
• Squish Da Puny Gitz is an amazing late game tactic, there are plenty of games where you can pick this after having already completed it.
• Destroyer of Empires is lulz.
• Ironjawz Fist, I mean it's not bad...I'm just not sure I'd ever use it over hunters of the heartland.

Gordrakk/MK

• Gordrakk got the always general rule!
• Destructive Bulk is actually pretty fricking solid. 
• Smasha and Kunnin are now both a flat 2 damage/mortal wounds which is way better than the old d3.
• Sweet Holy Gods Voice of gork and Skull-shacking Bellow are bonkers good, fricking amazing. The ability to target 3 units with each CA rather than 1 is just unreal.
• Riptooth Fist makes you a 3+ save.

Honestly, I fricking love everything about it, it's awesome.

Megaboss

• 8 attacks now which is solid.
• Ear-Splitting Bellow makes this guy a real choice now. Targets 2 units with a CA rather than 1.
• Can pile in and attack when killed!

Warchanter/Weirdnob

• Warbeats are now on the warscroll not an ability, so you always get 1 per warchanter but can't get a 2nd using enhancements.
• Brutal power is now with 12" of 10 Ironjawz models, not wholly within 12" of a unit with 10.
• Green puke is still bad

Brutes

• Wait...Wait what. Enemy models with a wounds characteristic of 1 with 3" cannot contest objectives. Holy gods.

Ardboys

• Pretty hefty nerfs on the profile now the old 3 attacks 4+/3+/-/1
• Bravery 5 and the banner is +1 (so 6 total)
• Drummer is now +1 to charge not +2
• Shields are now a flat 6+ ward
• If the unit uses the rally ability while wholly within 12" of a friendly warchanter you reinforce on a 4+ not a 6+

Goregruntas

• Apparently we are bravery 6 across the board now....
• Impact hits are now 3+ or 2+ if they have the spear.
• Otherwise it's the same.

Points/Roles

• Ardboys are 85 for 5 as battleline, actually pretty solid. With the reinforce rule a unit of 15 could be a real pain to shift.
• Brutes as battleline at 160 feel fair with the new rules.
• Footboss is down to 140 which honestly makes him a steal.
• Warchanter is 115.
• 90 points for a weirdnob shaman, ok that actually makes him a pretty good choice. 6 wounds for a 1 cast wizard isn't actually bad.
• Goredrakk at 560 seems actually pretty solid.
• MK down to 480 is also great.
• Goregruntas are now 150 for 3 but only batteline in bloodtoofs!

Thoughts

Actually I'm really happy with how this turned out. Ardboys/Brutes now fill distinct roles as the core of any IJ army. The ability to multiply your CA's from megabosses is just amazing, combine that with all 3 of them getting buffs and it's super nice. The points reductions for foot characters is just so good and the warclans are ace.

Honestly other than a few things missing which I really liked (my poor +1 to charge) yeah I think this is great and pushes us in the direction that IJ should be going.

EDIT: Ok I missed the Mighty Destroyers no longer letting you pile in and attack, that's a horrific nerf which possibly outweighs everything else.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Malakree

[Orkmann]

Mighty Destroyer and the BT ability might need an faq, but I can see an argument that if you make a pile in move, that automatically means you can attack as well:

12.3 COMBAT ATTACKS
After you have made all of the pile-in moves for a unit, you must make 
combat attacks with each model in the unit that is within range of an 
enemy model

 

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Orkmann said:

Mighty Destroyer and the BT ability might need an faq, but I can see an argument that if you make a pile in move, that automatically means you can attack as well:

12.3 COMBAT ATTACKS
After you have made all of the pile-in moves for a unit, you must make 
combat attacks with each model in the unit that is within range of an 
enemy model

 

I'm really not sure that's now the bloodtoofs ability should work. That seems nuts, especially on the Waaagh! turn, you could comfortably put 4 units of GG's and 2 MK's in combat turn 1.

On the otherhand for a single CP a MK can now have 3 units make a charge at the end of the enemies charge phase  

[Gothmaug]

One of the nerfs that stands out the most is the generally horrid Bravery of the units, and the lack of the old command traits or artifacts that could help mitigate that. With Ardboys and Brutes at 6 bravery, You'll be using command points every turn to keep units from running. Gordraaks and the Footbosses ability to issue the same command to multiple units will be clutch. Saving that for the Bravery checks could be gamesaving. 

The Kruelboys Sloggoth unit grants a +1 to hit 18" bubble, and hits only 150 points. I'll be keeping one of those in all my lists. 

Smash em and Bash em only works on fellow units within 3", so it will have to be planned for carefully when you're figuring out which order to fight in. A lot less useful now. 

Bonesplitterz big boss gets to pick a fellow bonesplitterz unit, and they both fight first in the combat phase. The Boss is dirt cheap, I think I need to take a better look and see if a Boss and a block of  morboys are worth it. 

 

Being able to freely mix and match is going to be great. Gong to take a few weeks to tease out the various combos from across all three branches. Right now having Im thinking Da choppas Ironjawz army, with A mawkrusha, Megaboss on Foot, and a warchanter(s) with a bunch of brutes, backed up by kruelboys casting and MW generation, and then some krulboys artllery sounds up my alley. we'll see i'm optimistic