Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[Drofnum]

17 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Eh, no. "As though in cover" means the bonus is exactly "as though the unit were in cover". It will not stack. 

Where is its stated you cant get cover bonuses twice?  GHB?  

Not doubting you guys, it's never come up in my groups and was curious about it and dont see it in the FAQ's, although i may be missing it and i dont have my GHB here.

[Freejack02]

17 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Where is its stated you cant get cover bonuses twice?  GHB?  

Not doubting you guys, it's never come up in my groups and was curious about it and dont see it in the FAQ's, although i may be missing it and i dont have my GHB here.

It's in the basic 4 page ruleset. Qualifying for a cover bonus to saves is a "yes/no", rather than a "how many".

[Drofnum]

9 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

It's in the basic 4 page ruleset. Qualifying for a cover bonus to saves is a "yes/no", rather than a "how many".

I knew I was missing it somewhere.  Definitely clear as day there, thanks!

That definitely makes the turtle less attractive though, you're already getting a cover save for 2/5 rounds, getting for an extra 3 rounds on some units is nice but it does feel a bit underwhelming.  Of course his other abilities are pretty good so he is probably still worth taking, depending on points of course.

[Barkanaut]

Oh the deep trench Idoneth sound right up my alley. I wonder what paint scheme GW used. Still hoping one of the last two Enclaves is from Charon. Decisions decisions deep trench Idoneth or Charon metal Idoneth.  I’ll probably go with the Ahkelian King for sure and make an eel based army with turtles for back up and maybe some sharks too. 

[Soulsmith]

22 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:

Oh the deep trench Idoneth sound right up my alley. I wonder what paint scheme GW used. Still hoping one of the last two Enclaves is from Charon. Decisions decisions deep trench Idoneth or Charon metal Idoneth.  I’ll probably go with the Ahkelian King for sure and make an eel based army with turtles for back up and maybe some sharks too. 

This is the thing for me as well, I would like to see some variant schemes as I really am not sure how to paint them! 

[Acid_Nine]

So, does anyone know if the rituals affect the entire army?

[mhsellwood]

OK, I have to say I am now reassessing the cost of the thralls based on the info about their additional rules. Again, looking at equivalent units, the closest would be Wildwood Rangers who have identical stats bar +1 bravery, get d3 damage against monsters, are not battleline and cost 180/480. By comparison Thralls are battleline, have an extra attack against 1 wound models, go to damage 2 versus 4 wound or more models: basically in every way a better unit. I would think on this basis that a cost of about 180 per 10 would be pretty good.

Just in general what has been revealed more or less answers a lot of concerns people have raised.

Eidolon will be sniped. No, because you can't target him with shooting if he is not closest, and he can be rocking a 5+ versus mortals, and there are healing spells, and he has innate healing, and the ship can give him a 6+ ignore

There are no tanks to soak up shooting. The Leviadon has a 3+ save, 16 wounds, can get an ignore wound save from the shipwreck, can be healed from magic, has a -1 to hit for shooting. Similarly the Ishlaen guard have a 4+ save ignoring rend, which you can easily get up to a 2+ ignoring rend.

Basic guys are fragile, and won't hit hard enough. With the info about their additional attacks, the command ability of the Akhelian King I think damage output will be the least of their problems. Fragile yes, but from the sounds of things there are going to be some good debuffs in the spell list (if the d6 units getting -1 to hit and bravery is true that is bonkers good) and some units that are so tanky your opponent will have plenty of other issues to deal with.

At this point I am more worried that I will look like a filthy bandwagoner going for the latest hotness rather than getting them for the models first and the gameplay second.

[Acid_Nine]

20 minutes ago, mhsellwood said:

OK, I have to say I am now reassessing the cost of the thralls based on the info about their additional rules. Again, looking at equivalent units, the closest would be Wildwood Rangers who have identical stats bar +1 bravery, get d3 damage against monsters, are not battleline and cost 180/480. By comparison Thralls are battleline, have an extra attack against 1 wound models, go to damage 2 versus 4 wound or more models: basically in every way a better unit. I would think on this basis that a cost of about 180 per 10 would be pretty good.

Just in general what has been revealed more or less answers a lot of concerns people have raised.

Eidolon will be sniped. No, because you can't target him with shooting if he is not closest, and he can be rocking a 5+ versus mortals, and there are healing spells, and he has innate healing, and the ship can give him a 6+ ignore

There are no tanks to soak up shooting. The Leviadon has a 3+ save, 16 wounds, can get an ignore wound save from the shipwreck, can be healed from magic, has a -1 to hit for shooting. Similarly the Ishlaen guard have a 4+ save ignoring rend, which you can easily get up to a 2+ ignoring rend.

Basic guys are fragile, and won't hit hard enough. With the info about their additional attacks, the command ability of the Akhelian King I think damage output will be the least of their problems. Fragile yes, but from the sounds of things there are going to be some good debuffs in the spell list (if the d6 units getting -1 to hit and bravery is true that is bonkers good) and some units that are so tanky your opponent will have plenty of other issues to deal with.

At this point I am more worried that I will look like a filthy bandwagoner going for the latest hotness rather than getting them for the models first and the gameplay second.

Well said! These fears I had do seem to be falling away, and everything seems to be very food so far for our builds.  Maybe a little too reliant on the eidolon for the debuff spells, but overall I'm pretty stoked to see more! that and the fluff is amazing in my own humble oppinion.

 

Now, did anyone confirm the ritual thing yet? does it affect the whole army? and how did the warhammer tv battle go against maggot kin?

[BillyOcean]

Yeah it seems like a lot of synergies to get the head around, with potential for some very powerful lists. The only remaining concern is getting enough models on the table to control objectives - maybe thats what allies will be needed for? 

They got beat up by the Maggotkin, but the Nurgle player had a tournament level list and was very experienced with it. So probably doesn't mean much.

[Soulsmith]

They unfortunately lost to the maggotkin, though he rolled fantastically on his disgustingly resiliants.

[Acid_Nine]

Just now, BillyOcean said:

Yeah it seems like a lot of synergies to get the head around, with potential for some very powerful lists. The only remaining concern is getting enough models on the table to control objectives - maybe thats what allies will be needed for? 

They got beat up by the Maggotkin, but the Nurgle player had a tournament level list and was very experienced with it. So probably doesn't mean much.

that's how it's going to go at my GW... main AOS guys there pretty much all finished top 10 in adepticon, so yea this will be a learning experience!

[mhsellwood]

3 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

Yeah it seems like a lot of synergies to get the head around, with potential for some very powerful lists. The only remaining concern is getting enough models on the table to control objectives - maybe thats what allies will be needed for? 

They got beat up by the Maggotkin, but the Nurgle player had a tournament level list and was very experienced with it. So probably doesn't mean much.

Thanks for the update - like you say not sure how much we should take from this. I remember the Daughters of Khaine game went very poorly for the new army, but like you say it was a casual with an army they had never played versus a player who knew their stuff.

In general I think with AoS a good player with a familiar army will beat a less good player with an unfamiliar  list 9 times out of 10 irrespective of the relative 'tier' of the armies

[BillyOcean]

10 minutes ago, mhsellwood said:

In general I think with AoS a good player with a familiar army will beat a less good player with an unfamiliar  list 9 times out of 10 irrespective of the relative 'tier' of the armies

Yeah, I think familiarity is key. Really understanding the limitations of each of unit, and how to use them to cover each others limitations. It takes many games, hence why the new army often loses in these reports.

[Acid_Nine]

 

1 minute ago, BillyOcean said:

Yeah, I think familiarity is key. Really understanding the limitations of each of unit, and how to use them to cover each others limitations. It takes many games, hence why the new army often loses in these reports.

same thing happened with the kharadons I think, and look how big of a monster they are now!

I'm excited to see what the sharks do compared to the eels!

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Still hints of an other monster lurking in the deeps

[Barkanaut]

5 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

Still hints of an other monster lurking in the deeps

?

[Chikout]

2 hours ago, BillyOcean said:

Yeah, I think familiarity is key. Really understanding the limitations of each of unit, and how to use them to cover each others limitations. It takes many games, hence why the new army often loses in these reports.

Look at Byron. He was playing with his list for months before he started winning everything. Even the all powerful tzeentch lists took at least six months before they started dominating everything.  With a whole bunch of new armies, new magic, new rules and another rebalancing of points with ghb 2018,  we probably won't know how Idoneth fits in till the new year. 

[mmimzie]

yeah winning or losing on the warhamemr TV i don't think means much. Even mroe so he said he wasn't bringing "the competive list"

The charge out of no where with the soul scryer is absolutely bonkers, and i wonder if only one of them can do it a game?? can you just soul scryer your whole army onto the table?? If that's the case does deplyign a soul scryer in this way count as a single drop??  Flying chargers negate alot of what screens could do in that situation. That said you need a place to set up on the table.

Guards seem like great tanks, and along with the turtle to insure they always have atleast a 3+ if your going MSU or throw in a mystic shield onto a big unit for a huge unit of 2+ save, and that seems really hard to deal with if you can't rely on rend to get you out of that pickle. 

Thrals look way more like a high damage unit and alot less like a screen/chaffe unit as they said in the warhammer community page. The damage output on them just seems nuts. I'd put thing at, atleast 160pts for 10 or more.  I wouldn't be mad to see them at 180 pts a model?? Also +1 attack on that thrall unit 4 , 2 damage attacks  woooo.. that's means.  Honestly they wouldn't be bad at 180 at all x.x.

Gloom tide ship wreck is going to be very important, and an interesting part of the list. 

Yeah very important out big models will not be getting sniped out, and niether will any of our characters with important abilities. Atleast if they are it will have been after considerable work on your opponents part. 

[DantePQ]

The one problem is real - you needs wounds to win AoS games and so far that army looks like really elite force, what I like is that they have mechanics to work with this. And ID seem to have no units that can be used as screens or chaff, which could be an issue as 160-180 points infantry won't be cheap enough. They could suffer against armies with huge number of multiattacks units. 

Soul Scryer isn't out of nowhere form what I've heard - he must be deployed with two units from the board edge so it's won't be that easy to position him that way, but his mechanics are very cool. 

Aspect of the Storm is awesome especially that he seems to have access to artifacts , but on the other hand artifacts will be really limited as with such expensive army point wise I fixed unit selection and extra points for battalion will be hard to find. 

But it will be my next army anyway but I think Thrall heavy army could be awesome with Cavalery used as sscreen. 

So far Tutrle was the biggest letdown for me - I need point cost to evaluate him but to use as much points for cover in a game when often you need to split your forces anyway, turtle doesn't hit or shoot hard. 

Also I like spells a lot, they aren't wery powerful but quite useful 

From what I've seen I will be using Hero that makes Reavers a BL and then 2x10 reavers, 30 Thralls, 6 Ishlaen guard, Aspect of the Sea, Soul Scryer and then I will have enought points for some hammer unit (another cavalery, sharks, Deepmare named lord, Aspect of the Storm ?) + maybe another hero. And it's easy puts such army at 110-120 wounds which is nice.

 

[Amradiel]

12 hours ago, syph0n said:

Elite is good for me. Low model count, less painting time! Man, so torn between these and DoK. 

I feel you. I had just bought a big DoK army but as soon as I looked at the Idoneth deepkin I sold them and my Sylvaneth off so I can buy an entire army. Love everything about the Idoneth deepkin.

[J.J]

7 hours ago, BillyOcean said:

They got beat up by the Maggotkin, but the Nurgle player had a tournament level list and was very experienced with it. So probably doesn't mean much.

Les also mentioned that he wasn't able to make what he considered a tournament level ID list as he was limited by the models provided to him.

If this is becoming a common theme then maybe they need a bit of a shake-up on the pairing, get their opponent to use an army they are less familiar with so they are on similar footing.

Very fun battle report though, it showed off what the Deepkin can do on a base level and that already has me excited!

[ledha]

what is interesting is the hero that give +3 to charge against a specific unit

 

Maybe i'm wrong, but today, you don't specify which ennemy unit you charge. You roll the dice, and see how far you can go. Is it a clue that in the V2, you'll have to specify which ennemy unit you charge ?

[DantePQ]

6 minutes ago, ledha said:

what is interesting is the hero that give +3 to charge against a specific unit

 

Maybe i'm wrong, but today, you don't specify which ennemy unit you charge. You roll the dice, and see how far you can go. Is it a clue that in the V2, you'll have to specify which ennemy unit you charge ?

Maybe, 

or maybe you got to specify to get that bonus to charge, but from what I've heard that hero only deploy from chosen edge of the board, so it's like you can deploy him and units anywhere, but works like Tree Revenants. 

[Peegee]

Do we know for sure the base size for the Thralls ?

[Techn0magier]

I try to understand why so many people here are concerned about base sizes? In my area bases are the most unimportant thing on an AoS model. The rules never talk about them, and they are ignored for literally everything. Has the oversea tournament scene agreed to a houserule or smth?