The end of compendium (finally?)

[stato]

27 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Just because they dont make money on future purchases.. you think that compendium army players deserve to have their previous purchases invalidated?? GOODWILL? lol ok. So Its SOOO nice of the altruistic games workshop to bless us with the MOST BASIC support of writing a list of points to actually play the game. Give me a break. Its not good will if customers have spent money and time supporting a line. Its their damn business model. 

As has been said numerous times their business model is to have people spend money, not support people who spent money in the past (i have a Dwarf army from 1993, should i demand rules for those models?).  When people bought the models rules were available, what they have done is gone and given you extra rules for free, if you dont like them you can still use the rules from older versions, there are plenty of people still playing WHFB.

If you want them to change their policy contact them directly and let them know you wont support them unless they ensure every old model is supported into the future indefinitely.  If everyone who is aggrieved actually does that something might change, ranting on a forum is not going to change anything other than irritate people. 

[Gaz Taylor]

I do fear that this discussion is about to go around and around and around but....

27 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

The arguement of "2/3 game types allow you to play the army you spent time and money on.. only 1/3 doesnt" is so dumb when probably 90% of the games played in clubs and shops are matched play.

I disagree with this. My experience in the UK is people like to play lots of different ways. Don't get me wrong, I love that we have matched play and I enjoy playing those games but you can't discount the other ways just because it's not something you like to play. Again I think GW have done the best thing by giving players a framework to use for using their models and still playing AOS. It's a bit like me expecting Nintendo to keep on producing games for my SNES even though it's not been supported for many years (although oddly I think you can still phone the trouble shooting line for hardware assistance!!!).

 

25 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

You are in the VAST minority here. There is simply no way to balance a game without points. And I shouldnt have to have a socratic argument with someone before a game in the HOPES it will be fair. The company gambled on this way to play and FAILED for a reason. It was dumb. 

I do disagree with this as you need to have some sort of discussion with your opponent before the game, even with Matched Play. I have never heard of players just turning up and putting their army on the table expecting their opponent to do the same without checking that they are playing with points or even using the same amount of points. Even at tournaments you have a level of expectation set because to the rulespack. I may be in the minority but in my experience, people play in all sorts of different ways.

6 minutes ago, MOMUS said:

PS: sarcasm not allowed on TGA? ?

Not when it's being used to create a bad atmosphere. I have nothing wrong with it being used but not to make a fool out of people or make a thread unpleasant to read. TGA is a place for everybody to enjoy toy soldiers  

[hughwyeth]

21 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

You are in the VAST minority here. There is simply no way to balance a game without points. And I shouldnt have to have a socratic argument with someone before a game in the HOPES it will be fair. The company gambled on this way to play and FAILED for a reason. It was dumb. 

Why do people say it failed? AoS even pre-GH was selling more than fantasy wasn't it?

Points sort of balance things, but look at any forum for forces outside of the current meta and most would disagree that they can get a balanced game using points! That's the issue with or without points- if you play someone who is win at all costs, points don't help. They'll take whatever list is cheapest for their point cost. You gotta do the same or it's not balanced. I can't play a balanced game against anyone with points using my skaven force (chaos allegiance...) if they take a netlist or one of the top 5 in the meta. 

[hughwyeth]

3 hours ago, stato said:

Do you need to be offensive?

His idea was to get a rough balance, if you understand the mechanic you can adjust what you would take to make a 'better' army.  Regardless its enough to get a game started and playing, which considering he was talking about open play is more than enough to get started.

I really want to know what he said now!

I don't get how someone can be angry at free stuff. 

[AthlorianStoners]

3 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

I really want to know what he said now!

I don't get how someone can be angry at free stuff. 

This 100%, most people (TK, Bret’s, Greenskins etc) haven’t actually even been affected yet. 

Someone like @syph0n (a cool user who’s always good to talk to) could have the right to be upset, Legends had actively impacted an ongoing project of his. 

Instead he’s taken om board, worked a solution and still enjoying the game. 

[Alith]

I don't think there is any point discussing who is in the majority or in the minority, we only have our anecdotal evidence. Some people say their community  was better before points, others, like me, didn't even have a community until points appeared, all metas are different.

I am happy warhammer legends exists, I would wish that there were also allowed in matched play, nevertheless I like those models and old world characters and will certainly buy some to proxy in matched played, I don't see anyone objecting me using Tyrion as a Dragon noble or Kurt Helborg as a Freeguild General. 

[eciu]

47 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I do believe that you are being picky but I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the period without points. I think the key thing to remember is that you don't need to have points to have fun but if that's how you like to play that's fine.

I would go even step further. You don't need any rules to have fun with your models. 

 

48 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Just remember that we have the three ways of playing (Open, Narrative and Matched) and whilst some units/armies are being moved into Open Play due to not having any points, you can still use them.

Yes, but guess which one of those all is quite the most important (as all others from it). 

 

49 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Now with my mod hat in my hands I do need to add - Can you please bring to the discussion more than the one line sarcastic comments you have been doing so far. As I have mentioned I do sympathize with you but we want TGA to be a place for everybody and by replying in discussions in such a way alienates you as it makes you come across being quite angry. People don't normally want to engage with people being angry and it doesn't make the board a pleasant place to visit. I'm aware that no matter what positive spin I put on this, you probably won't see it that way and that is fine. Just remember to be constructive with your comments and remember that others may be seeing this differently to yourself  

No problem. I'm really here to be proven wrong, as much as I love some particular new lines of models (KO are really nice)while  I'm still massively dissapointed in rules and waiting for someone/something give me a reasonable excuse/reason to start buying those models

[MightyMetro]

24 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Just because they dont make money on future purchases.. you think that compendium army players deserve to have their previous purchases invalidated??

Im trying to understand the issue.  I have a couple of questions, rather than an informed opinion. 

1) My impression was that compendiums were a courtesy allowing players to use unsupported legacy units in aos.  Is this true? If not, what was the purpose of compendiums?

It seems that no models have been removed from the AOS factions.  However, unsupported ‘compendium only’ characters and units have now been invalidated in matched play.  Correct me if im wrong.

2) Has Games Workshop sold  ‘compendium only’ miniatures since the launch of Age of Sigmar, other than as clearance items? 

3) If not, are the invalidated units only those that were sold and purchased as WHFB products, but never AOS?

[gdieckhaus]

Tomb Kings already have a PDF and it has points so long as you play by that pdf and points they will be ok right?

[michu]

@MightyMetro 

1) Yes

2) No, they didn't.

3) Yes.

[sal4m4nd3r]

I have a problem with GW dictating which armies are compendium and which aren’t. They selectively killed entire playable races. Some didn’t get compendium’d just renamed and ported over. Warriors chaos mostly got brought to StD. Same for all the demon armies, seraphon and others. It wasnt a problem with TK, duardin, etc.. it was a problem with whfb. And they decidedly kept some armies and not others. 

[stato]

14 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

I have a problem with GW dictating which armies are compendium and which aren’t. They selectively killed entire playable races. Some didn’t get compendium’d just renamed and ported over. Warriors chaos mostly got brought to StD. Same for all the demon armies, seraphon and others. It wasnt a problem with TK, duardin, etc.. it was a problem with whfb. And they decidedly kept some armies and not others. 

But its their business? They get to choose.  You can influence it by talking to them but ultimately they will do what their chiefs decide is right for the long term of the business.  As has been given above a good analogy is video games, a new console will come along and suddenly they dont update your favorite game to the new system. Its still there though, and you will find people to play it with you, but it wont be as many or as easily as the latest hotness.

[Ungface]

On 08/05/2018 at 4:29 PM, eciu said:

It helps them with their security and self esteem issues (apparently), it might cause some self-esteem issues when you push something hard and it's still inferior to "something past"

Do you understand how ironic your post was?

[sal4m4nd3r]

I missed the part where video games cost hundreds/thousands of dollars and and hundreds/thousands of hours of time invested in them. Also you can still play those games long after another consol comes out..? Also emulators exist to allow players to play. 

As I said I have an issue with them selectively killing certain armies. I would have much more respect if they blew up the world, created a new game with new playable armies. But they brought over some and gave the finger to others. Also the slow erosion of “pointing out” armies is a slap in the face. They are decidedly making these armies less viable by adjusting an artificial point system which they manipulate on a whim.

This thread and the ho-hum attitude within it is upsetting me and I choose not to participate anymore. Thanks all.

[eciu]

9 minutes ago, Ungface said:

Do you understand how ironic your post was?

It would be if I had been in any way tied to WHFB ;P

[stato]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

As I said I have an issue with them selectively killing certain armies. I would have much more respect if they blew up the world, created a new game with new playable armies. But they brought over some and gave the finger to others. Also the slow erosion of “pointing out” armies is a slap in the face. They are decidedly making these armies less viable by adjusting an artificial point system which they manipulate on a whim.

This thread and the ho-hum attitude within it is upsetting me and I choose not to participate anymore. Thanks all.

What they did with AoS was bring over all the armies, just some in compendium. They did that so people could play the new game with all their stuff, but they said it wouldnt last forever. A slap in the face would be to have thrown out everyones models without warning.

So their end has come, and yet still they give out new rules to build a place for those armies to live on without having to revert completely to WHFB. They cant hope to balance that forever as new things come out so they did the sensible thing and just dropped the points, and the players can decide how their army fares against whatever comes out in 2018/19/20. This 'erosion' of an army by adjusting a points system is entirely what they are getting rid of, by moving obsolete and un-available models into a different place.

I get you’re annoyed but its been coming for a while, ive got 2000+ bretonnians and same of Dwarf units, both of which will be un-pointed soon, but at least ill get some new rules for them and a place for them to go without having to play WHFB. Frankly i was amazed i could even play with any of them when i started playing AoS, considering some of the Dwarfs are 1993 lead models and considerably older than some of my opponents where i play!  Even my N64  wont work on modern TV's!

[TheMuphinMan]

So all these complaints about points being removed, but whats to stop people from just using the pre-cleansing points from GH 1&2 for most of the units in casual games.

Person 1: "I want to play my old TK  army, do you mind if I use the GH1 point profiles so I can run some of the old named heroes?"

Person 2: "Sure, but I'd rather you use the GH2017 profiles at least for necropolis knights and the necrosphinx because they were pretty undercosted"

Person 1: "I wasn't going to run them anyway. So, how many points do you want to do, 1000 or 2000??"

[Gaz Taylor]

38 minutes ago, TheMuphinMan said:

So all these complaints about points being removed, but whats to stop people from just using the pre-cleansing points from GH 1&2 for most of the units in casual games.

Person 1: "I want to play my old TK  army, do you mind if I use the GH1 point profiles so I can run some of the old named heroes?"

Person 2: "Sure, but I'd rather you use the GH2017 profiles at least for necropolis knights and the necrosphinx because they were pretty undercosted"

Person 1: "I wasn't going to run them anyway. So, how many points do you want to do, 1000 or 2000??"

100% this. This is exactly the sort of thing players should do who want to run legacy armies.  You deserve all the cookies

[Ungface]

3 hours ago, eciu said:

It would be if I had been in any way tied to WHFB ;P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[Karol]

On 5/9/2018 at 5:55 PM, Gaz Taylor said:

I do disagree with this as you need to have some sort of discussion with your opponent before the game, even with Matched Play. I have never heard of players just turning up and putting their army on the table expecting their opponent to do the same without checking that they are playing with points or even using the same amount of points. Even at tournaments you have a level of expectation set because to the rulespack. I may be in the minority but in my experience, people play in all sorts of different ways.

In Poland this is exactly the way people play. 100% of times matched played. 2000pts, using the latest tournament FAQ or rules pack. All the "talk" is what scenario is being played, but that kind of is already playing the game.  If you don't know or don't like the person your playing, the talking could be limited to an hour of strickt game talk. In fact in a lot of stores they don't like if people talk, because it either ends with people insulting each other over politics or sport, or using language not fit for under 18 year olds in the store. And there is very few things that can close a store faster, then an angry mother.

[Gecktron]

12 minutes ago, Karol said:

In Poland this is exactly the way people play. 100% of times matched played. 2000pts, using the latest tournament FAQ or rules pack. All the "talk" is what scenario is being played, but that kind of is already playing the game.  If you don't know or don't like the person your playing, the talking could be limited to an hour of strickt game talk. In fact in a lot of stores they don't like if people talk, because it either ends with people insulting each other over politics or sport, or using language not fit for under 18 year olds in the store. And there is very few things that can close a store faster, then an angry mother.

Hey, not to be insulting but that sounds very sad. 

I play tabletop games to have fun. This sounds like something to get over with as quickly as possible. 

Is it maybe just your store thats like this? I cant imagine this being the norm. Even more so as 2000-points-tournament-style-only is literaly poison for new players. 

[Karol]

Well the faster you play the more game you can play and win, and get more fun out of it. If one game take 2 hours and is fun, and for someone else he can fit 2-3 games in the same time, they are having 2-3 as much fun, specially if they are winning or teaching themselfs to win.

It is not just my store, The entire country plays like that. Although AoS is not as popular as w40k or Warmachine. Groups are smaller, as are any tournaments or leagues.

To be honest I can't imagine someone not starting with a tournament list. Even if they played other games, they won't be having the in depth knowladge needed to play, win and build a proper army. And no one wants to spend money on an army that doesn't work. If AoS was cheaper like some other systems, I could imagine people wanting to experiment. No one is going to experiment in a game where a year  or more of saving up, may give you an army that wont have a positive win ratio.

[syph0n]

Are people building tournament lists using Compendium models? I think I've only ever seen Bolt Throwers in some Mixed Order lists. That sacrifices so much it seems of proper faction lists doesn't it? Genuine question, not trying to be facetious. 

If the answer, as I suspect, is no, people aren't using Dark Elf Compendium (and obviously future Compendium to Legends models) with great frequency, I don't understand the concern. Your groups will continue to play 2k lists based on the stronger lists of far more current armies? 

[VBS]

Well, that sounds like a peculiar way of enjoying the game. Not good or bad, but different than many. Some of us never set a foot in a tournament, nor bother to know if their lists "work" or are even "legal according to the rules". The source of entertainment in the hobby does not emanate from concepts such as being competitive, winning or fitting as much games as possible in an afternoon. Just different perspectives, we all have fun in our own ways (btw, this my laidback vision regarding AoS, if I want to go more "tournament-efficient" style, I have other wargames that I prefer for such endeavor).

 

Also random thought I got today, as I see a lot of references to it, with this Legends thing for example. Is there really a perception that there are three ways to play? As in: they are distinct and we pick one of them when playing a game? I always that such concept in the GHB was nonsense, as you can make a narrative scenario that works with match play rules or rather go more in open style. I mean, they all mix and blend together and don't necessarily exclude each other in the sense that you have three ways to play, so please pick one.

It has been that way since the dawn of toy soldiers, I guess. I'm sure many of us started with just a bunch of minis on the kitchen table and no clear grasp of the rules... so probably considered in 2018 as Open Play? Except that no one called it such thing, and no one cared about having one, two, three or seven ways to play. With this I mean that narrative is possible using match play rules (just forge a narrative behind, and easily maintaine balanced rules) or have an open game where you just pick certain rules like mini points while adding or removing other aspects (so not  necessarily fully match play).

Don't know if what the post makes sense, but I just find it odd that we see discussions about people saying that you can only play one way or the other, or how do you play that type of way, as if it was something fixed... I believe the appelation three ways to play is somewhat misleading, and by reading the GHB2016 I think it was more for the sake of clarity for new players than something to really stick to... Different opinions about this are welcome!

 

[Kirjava13]

By all the gods, Poland sounds like a miserable place to play Warhammz.