AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[PrimeElectrid]

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

More detail on this one:

"Reinforcements are 4 max in a 2000 point army. Take a unit from 10 - 20 is 1 reinforcement. Battleline units can be reinforces 2 times. None battleline only 1 time."

So straight away this knocks 5-10 models off most infantry units out there. 

A few units seem to be hit particularly hard; those non-battleline units which come in 3s and used to have a max cap of 12 and now 6. Vanguard raptors, dracoths, dracolines, kurnoth hunters, stormfiends, I’m sure there are others.

Salamanders seem hit in a big way with max 2 salamanders per unit.

[Icarion]

On 6/8/2021 at 5:55 AM, Sarouan said:

That's really what I don't like with this new coherence rule : it makes the unit formation look even sillier.

I'll be honest, that's not a change I like to see. The rule works in 40k because melee works with bases, not inches. In AoS, it's totally not the same.

I really hope it's not a fatal flaw of the rule design team, here. In all cases, it certainly doesn't make the game simpler and more intuitive, IMHO.

Nothing about the new coherency rules makes formations look like this.

It's gamers who only care about maximizing damage output above all else, and chasing a meta, that creates things like this.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, PrimeElectrid said:

So straight away this knocks 5-10 models off most infantry units out there. 

A few units seem to be hit particularly hard; those non-battleline units which come in 3s and used to have a max cap of 12 and now 6. Vanguard raptors, dracoths, dracolines, kurnoth hunters, stormfiends, I’m sure there are others.

Salamanders seem hit in a big way with max 2 salamanders per unit.

This will make it harder to buff units into the stratosphere, but the lower damage output is probably not a huge issue, since the units you wll be up against will also be smaller on average.

[Beliman]

13 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

More detail on this one:

"Reinforcements are 4 max in a 2000 point army. Take a unit from 10 - 20 is 1 reinforcement. Battleline units can be reinforces 2 times. None battleline only 1 time."

Seems fine. Some armies are going to be hit hard. Can't wait to see more rules!

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

Nothing about the new coherency rules makes formations look like this.

It's gamers who only care about maximizing damage output above all else, and chasing a meta, that creates things like this.

What has this to do with chasing the meta? It's just playing with the game rules without giving yourself a penalty 🤷‍♂️

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Seems fine. Some armies are going to be hit hard. Can't wait to see more rules!

I think this will make the game more enjoyable, actually. At the moment you are forced to bring big blocks of guys to deal with your opponent's big blocks of guys. But if everyone is forced to bring smaller units across the board, relatively the power level stays the same, but the game becomes more dynamic because there are more independent units.

[SorryLizard]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think this will make the game more enjoyable, actually. At the moment you are forced to bring big blocks of guys to deal with your opponent's big blocks of guys. But if everyone is forced to bring smaller units across the board, relatively the power level stays the same, but the game becomes more dynamic because there are more independent units.

Where are we learning this rule from?

[BaylorCorvette]

I really hope that rumor is true about unit sizes. Buffing a single huge unit to the moon is annoying. Also it would make sense if it is true based on Gravelords unit sizes, specifically Dire Wolves min size is 10 (up from 5) and Zombies is 20 (up from 10).

[Grimrock]

26 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

More detail on this one:

"Reinforcements are 4 max in a 2000 point army. Take a unit from 10 - 20 is 1 reinforcement. Battleline units can be reinforces 2 times. None battleline only 1 time."

I'm a little confused on this one, is any incremental increase a reinforcement? ie. increasing a 5 man unit to 10, or a 3 man to 6, or a 20 to 40? This would have a really weird impact on units that start at 5 models but only get access to things like banners or leaders at higher model counts (like blood warriors or chaos warriors). 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Grimrock

[Icarion]

3 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

What has this to do with chasing the meta? It's just playing with the game rules without giving yourself a penalty 🤷‍♂️

 

To my eyes, these type of "formations" are indistinguishable from the practice of spamming what ever the most cost/damage efficient unit is when list building. Chasing an everchanging meta, and letting that determine what models you build and how you use them, is the same as abusing game rules without giving yourself a penalty. 

Just because something is allowed within the rules of the game, doesn't say anything about whether or not that is how the game is meant to be played. 

Nothing in the core rules says I'm not allowed to smash your models with a hammer, but I probably shouldn't if I want to make the game enjoyable for me and my opponent. 

[Scurvydog]

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think this will make the game more enjoyable, actually. At the moment you are forced to bring big blocks of guys to deal with your opponent's big blocks of guys. But if everyone is forced to bring smaller units across the board, relatively the power level stays the same, but the game becomes more dynamic because there are more independent units.

I guess this also depends on any changes to the current unit sizes, however this does not seem to hit the current top of the meta a lot, but really hurt other armies, like most death armies, fyreslayers, freeguild armies and such.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Athrawes said:

Just because something is allowed within the rules of the game, doesn't say anything about whether or not that is how the game is meant to be played.

The game is meant to be played in the way in which you and your opponent decide (or the event organiser), no argument on this. My own experience with my club is that, while there's only few "meta-chasers", everyone plays warhammer as a game and not as a beauty contest or role playing (there's better systems and mediums for those IMHO).

Still, my point is that if the game designers don't want player to come up with silly formations they should not introduce rules which actively incentivise these formations.

[frenk_castle]

8 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I'm a little confused on this one, is any incremental increase a reinforcement? ie. increasing a 5 man unit to 10, or a 3 man to 6, or a 20 to 40? This would have a really weird impact on units that start at 5 models but only get access to things like banners or leaders at higher model counts (like blood warriors or chaos warriors). 

I would also like to see how will this work. Ogor Gluttons for instance has minimum unit size of 3 but get special stuff one for each 6 models.

Maybe Blood Warriors and Ogor Gluttons will go to 10 and 6 model minimum size respectively.

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:

I guess this also depends on any changes to the current unit sizes, however this does not seem to hit the current top of the meta a lot, but really hurt other armies, like most death armies, fyreslayers, freeguild armies and such.

That depends on if it is "battleline" or if that includes battleline-if. Because it if it is just battleline, Blood Stalkers, and Sentinels both take up reinforcement points. Also Fyreslayers are a top meta army... 

So it it doesn't include battleline-if, that means Blood Stalkers are capped at 10, Morrsarr at 6. This hits Salamanders at 2, Longstrikes at 6, etc.

[Kokoshi]

Was just figuring a Stegadon with Sunfire Gout "unleashing hell" on whatever charged him before roaring/stomping on it. Probably not broken but efficient and fun.

[PJetski]

If this Reinforcement thing is correct then that is the single biggest change in the entirety of 3rd edition. Unleash Hell won't be a big problem at all if unit sizes are smaller, both as the attacker and the defender.

[peasant]

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

If this Reinforcement thing is correct then that is the single biggest change in the entirety of 3rd edition. Unleash Hell won't be a big problem at all if unit sizes are smaller, both as the attacker and the defender.

Sentinels are 10/20 so not affected

[SorryLizard]

5 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

The game is meant to be played in the way in which you and your opponent decide (or the event organiser), no argument on this. My own experience with my club is that, while there's only few "meta-chasers", everyone plays warhammer as a game and not as a beauty contest or role playing (there's better systems and mediums for those IMHO).

Still, my point is that if the game designers don't want player to come up with silly formations they should not introduce rules which actively incentivise these formations.

E.g.: a TwoFatLardies WW2 game. Presentation, culture, existing source material, etc. all exist to encourage players to play in a historically reasonable way.

===

3 minutes ago, frenk_castle said:

I would also like to see how will this work. Ogor Gluttons for instance has minimum unit size of 3 but get special stuff one for each 6 models.

Maybe Blood Warriors and Ogor Gluttons will go to 10 and 6 model minimum size respectively.

The unit size changes sound influenced by the Meeting Engagement style approach that units had to be minimum size except for mainline/rearguard battleline units that could be 2* Minimum.

And, if true, does rather support my supposition they want to move to one box = 1 unit.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

If this Reinforcement thing is correct then that is the single biggest change in the entirety of 3rd edition. Unleash Hell won't be a big problem at all if unit sizes are smaller, both as the attacker and the defender.

agreed.

also, maybe a sign that points are going up at least a bit across the board? otherwise there will be a lot of small units in certain armies

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, peasant said:

Sentinels are 10/20 so not affected

Oh my bad I didn't know you already saw the new pitched battle profiles

Cancel 3rd edition because Lumineth Sentinels still exist

Edited June 9, 2021 by PJetski

[peasant]

3 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Oh my bad I didn't know you already saw the new pitched battle profiles

And you?

[GutrotSpume]

I’m really struggling to understand this reinforcement rule! So you can only make units bigger 4 times in a 2k battle?  So for example if I had 5 units of 5 Boingrot Bounders I could only make 4 of them more than 5 models?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

29 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I really hope that rumor is true about unit sizes. Buffing a single huge unit to the moon is annoying. Also it would make sense if it is true based on Gravelords unit sizes, specifically Dire Wolves min size is 10 (up from 5) and Zombies is 20 (up from 10).

I was thinking about this, too. After the nerf to direwolves through the new coherency rules, this rule would buff them back up, because a min size of 10 for them means you get a screen with more wounds without spending reinforcement points.

8 minutes ago, peasant said:

Sentinels are 10/20 so not affected

Can we stop bringing Sentinels up every time a new rule tease or rumour appears? Nothing short of a warscroll rewrite will be likely to fix them, no need to bring it up every time.

[SorryLizard]

4 minutes ago, GutrotSpume said:

I’m really struggling to understand this reinforcement rule! So you can only make units bigger 4 times in a 2k battle?  So for example if I had 5 units of 5 Boingrot Bounders I could only make 4 of them more than 5 models?

As far as I know we don't actually have the text to see from an official source. Just rumours. So we can't really know for certain (and even then WarCom reveals are not always 100% correct anyway).

Edited June 9, 2021 by SorryLizard

[Scurvydog]

So I got 6 Varanguard built and painted for my empty throne list and another 3 still NiB... Sounds a lot like ebay time