AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

24 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

I think Behemoths are a double edged sword. As you say, they score extra in some plans, there are also battle tactics for monsters, or ones that score more from being completed by monsters, which is huge in a lot of plans that give 2VP just for doing a battle tactic.

However, the other edge of the sword is your opponent gets 1VP for each monster they kill. There are also battle tactics specifically for slaying monsters, so you give them the opportunity to complete those too. Some plans you score more for heroes nearby and if you've sunk 900 points into two heroes I think there's little room for others. I think I also remember seeing some where battleline score extra, which again with 900 in two heroes you'll likely have less for battleline.

I think multi-behemoth lists Will be good, but just beware you are also giving the opponent (potentially) more VP too.

For what it's worth, I would not put Prince Vhordrai and the VLoZD in the same category as other heroes. They are not there to support the rest of your army, nor do they need support from anyone else. They are basically just a 450 point detachment for your army that can act on it's own.

Because of this, I think it's fine to spend more points on heroes than you usually would if you run double dragon. I think you can totally get away with another two small heroes in such a list. Something like this seems like a reasonable first pass of a list:

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai/Vyrkos Dynasty

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- Deathlance
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
Necromancer (125)

Battleline
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)

Total: 1995 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122

You end up being low on bodies, but I guess that's just the tradeoff for bringing two big monster trucks.

[Liquidsteel]

54 minutes ago, Voand said:

What do people think about the "double dragon" lists in 3.0? Seeing how much it matters to be a behemoth (not just the extra actions granted but the extra points scored for completing objectives with one in a lot of the missions) it looks really attractive to me.

You run prince V, a VLoZD with the 5+ ward save relic, a couple units blood nights and ??? Profit???

Do you cram it into a vyrkos list, run belladama as your 3rd character for her ridiculous casting and fill with lots of chaff? Run Kastelai for battleline blood knights and go super tall with almost no chaff?

How do y'all think I it'll work best or do you think it won't?

I think the following could be tasty.

Vhordrai and VLoZD murder stuff, Blood Knights retreat and charge through chaff, bats provide some tech to avoid Unleash Hell and 20 skellies can sit on an objective and defend quite well against annoying units like Heartrenders.

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- Deathlance

Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170)

Units
3 x Fell Bats (75)
3 x Fell Bats (75)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126

 

[Liquidsteel]

It's also worth bearing in mind that on many of the battleplans, scoring/denying Battle Tactics each turn and achieving your Grand Strategy will provide more VP than just holding the objectives.

For this reason you can build lists that skew it in certain ways to foster a certain playstyle or strategy that would not have been feasible in 2.0.

I think it's going to take a little while before we get a clear picture, which is exciting.

[AHexInScarletRed]

14 hours ago, Reinholt said:

I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome Blood Knight battleline is.

 

Joking aside, I think the zombies are also interesting for the pile in nonsense. They can move surprisingly fast. I like the skeletons to hold objectives but in the new form of the game where the primary weirdly might not be your main points generation tool at all times and holding 2 objectives might be enough, I'm not as sold on them. Still useful, and require less babysitting. Zombies are occasionally totally filthy though, especially if you run some buffs via a necromancer, vamp lord, radhukar, etc. on them.

See, I'd rather use Zombies than Skeletons in Kastelai, thematically and visually. I like the models better and I imagine a Kastelai Vampire swiftly raising their hand while riding, with the recently diseased following the motion and rising from their graves is a much more fitting take than the Vampire focusing their Necromantic Power to raise an army of long-dead Warriors. But I think that I'll hinder myself if I only take Zombies since they won't hang around for long while the rest of the army isn't big in numbers. Ideas on a Kastelai list with only Zombies as the Infantry? e: With either Vengorian Lord or Double Dragon; I think that the second Dragon fits better in terms of theme, but a Vengorian Lord would work, too.

Edited June 24, 2021 by AHexInScarletRed

[Malakithe]

I like Dire Wolves in Kastelai. They can move with the Blood Knights to act as their screens or just chill on objectives. BK's and Vargheists deepstrike. Wolves run around doing doggo things and Prince V and Rad run around on their own to rip and tear....in theory. VenLord can support a unit of BKs.

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (455)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Vengorian Lord (280)
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Standard of the Crimson Keep
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Radukar the Beast (315)

Battleline
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)

Units
3 x Vargheists (155)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138
 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

After looking at the Spirit Gale spell recently I got curious how the other direct damage spells from our spell lores compare.

Soulblight Gravelords have access to two spell lores in Lore of Vampires and Lore of Deathmages. The Lore of Vampires contains three direct damage spells which I will be looking at: Blades of Shyish, Spirit Gale and Amaranthine Orb.

There are also the spells Soulpike and Soul Harvest from the Lore of Deathmages, but I will not be looking at them. The reason being that they serve different roles from the other direct damage spells:

You take Amaranthine Orb, Blades of Shyish and Spirit Gale purely to deal damage to one or more target at about mid-range. These spells fairly directly compete for a cast with Arcane Bolt. By contrast, you take Soulpike to dissuade the opponent from charging (or to situationally deal big damage against a unit that really wants to charge every turn/rolls 3d6 to charge like Sigvald, the Frost Lord on Stonehorn or Chaos Marauders). And you take Soul Harvest on a Mortarchs or Nagash to give to heal them if they get into melee.

First, let's take a look at the basic damage output of Arcane Bolt, Blades of Shyish and Amaranthine Orb. Blades and Orb can hit multiple targets, so one of the first questions I wanted to answer was "How many targets do I need to aim for to overall beat the damage of Arcane Bolt?":

Expected damage

Targets	Bolt	Blades	Orb
1	1,67	0,7	1,54
2		1,41	3,08
3		2,11	4,62
4		2,82	6,16

Answer: 3 targets for Blades of Shyish, and 2 targets for Amaranthine Orb. However, Orb is always better than Blades for equal numbers of targets.

For these damage values, I have included the chance to successfully make the cast and in the cases of Blades and Orb, the chance to trigger Locus of Shyish and resolve the spell twice.

Bonuses to cast have an effect on the expected damage values, since harder to cast spells benefit more from bonuses to cast. So do Blades or Orb ever get better than Bolt with a lower number of Targets?

The answer is yes! Here's the same chart for +2 to cast (no changes overall at +1):

Expected damage at +2 to cast

Targets	Bolt	Blades	Orb
1	1,94	0,82	1,95
2		1,64	3,91
3		2,46	5,86
4		3,29	7,82

As you can see, Orb becomes marginally better than Bolt at +2, but it's a micro-optimization if ever there was one.

The expected damage also changes with the ability to reroll casts (Vyrkos allegiance), because rerolls make it more likely to trigger Locus of Shyish. There are two possible strategies here: Take the first successful cast whether or not you get Locus of Shyish off (stay) or reroll the first cast if you don't get Locus of Shyish, even if it was successful (let it ride):

Expected damage with reroll casts (staying)

Targets	Bolt	Blades	Orb
1	1,94	0,86	1,63
2		1,73	3,26
3		2,59	4,89
4		3,45	6,52

Expected damage with reroll casts (letting it ride)

Targets	Bolt	Blades	Orb
1	1,94	0,9	1,83
2		1,81	3,66
3		2,71	5,49
4		3,62	7,33

As we can see, letting it ride results in the higher average damage overall. But it is not enough to ever make Blades or Orb better than Bolt against one target. Combining bonuses to cast with reroll casts raises the expected damage a bit more, but otherwise nothing interesting happens:

Expected damage for +2 to cast, rerolling

Targets	Bolt	Blades	Orb
1	2	0,97	1,97
2		1,94	3,94
3		2,91	5,92
4		3,89	7,89

The takeaway seems pretty clear: Amaranthine Orb is better than Arcane Bolt whenever you have more than 1 target, and the two are nearly identical for large casting bonuses. Blades of Shyish is pretty much always a bad spell to pick: It deal less damage than Arcane Bolt against fewer than 3 targets and even then deals a maximum of 2 damage to each (likely much less).  Spreading a tiny amount of mortal wounds over several targets just does not seem worthwhile.

Finally, let's take a look at Spirit Gale, taking Locus of Shyish into account. This time I am only looking at the difference between a normal cast and one with rerolls. As always, the expected damage goes up with casting bonuses, but since Arcane Bolt and Spirit Gale have the same casting bonuses, they benefit equally.

Expected damage for Spirit Gale (let it ride)

Bravery	Damage	With Rerolls
10	0,23	0,29
9	0,6	0,74
8	1,18	1,47
7	2,07	2,57
6	2,97	3,69
5	3,8	4,72
4	4,5	5,6
3	5,03	6,26
2	5,33	6,63
1	6,4	7,96

Spirit Gale outperforms Arcane Bolt against targets with 7 or less bravery. The more I look into it, the more Spirit Gale looks like an interesting way to potentially deal high damage to heroes (or even monsters or troops, really). With rerolls, the spell significantly out performs arcane bolt against bravery 7 heroes on average, with a very high damage ceiling (5 mortal wounds per resolved Spirit Gale). Plus, a -1 bravery debuff is easy to achieve by getting an enemy hero into combat with a unit of Deadwalkers or Deathrattle, which raises the average damage further against bravery 7 and makes the spell worthwhile against bravery 8.

I think Spirit Gale will become my lore spell of choice on Belladamma Volga in Vyrkos. It just fits her perfectly: She does not need Amethystine Pinions, because she will want to stick close to a unit of move 10" Direwolves in order to benefit form her bodyguard ability. These Direwolves will also be able to give an opponent -1 bravery. If she casts her Lycancurse warscroll spell, that is a second potential Deadwalkers unit in range of the enemy, resulting in a -2 bravery reduction. At this point, even 1 wound bravery 7 troops become an interesting target for Spirit gale, and it will deal between 4-5 mortal wounds per cast on average. And in a bad matchup against armies with lots of bravery 10 troops, Belladamma can just cast her Killing Moon warscroll spell instead.

[vlad3theimpaler]

5 hours ago, Voand said:

What do people think about the "double dragon" lists in 3.0? Seeing how much it matters to be a behemoth (not just the extra actions granted but the extra points scored for completing objectives with one in a lot of the missions) it looks really attractive to me.

You run prince V, a VLoZD with the 5+ ward save relic, a couple units blood nights and ??? Profit???

Do you cram it into a vyrkos list, run belladama as your 3rd character for her ridiculous casting and fill with lots of chaff? Run Kastelai for battleline blood knights and go super tall with almost no chaff?

How do y'all think I it'll work best or do you think it won't?

I don't know how well double dragon+blood knights will perform, but I plan on doing it either way.

Prince Vhordrai, another Lord on dragon, 25 blood knights, and 10 wolves comes to 2000 exactly.

Having a block or two of infantry in there would probably be better, but I really like the idea of an all-mounted force, with dire wolves used as their hounds.

[Alfascozzesi]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:46 PM, Clewzy said:

There maybe a couple of heads, some of the arms and the coffin remains. Not sure how they will fit with the scale of the ghouls

 

I am running in Vyrkos the following

Prince V

VLOZD General

Radakur the wolf

Manny

10 x wolves

10 x wolves

10 x wolves

10 x wolves

Palisade

 

Not optimal but I like it 😎

[Liquidsteel]

19 minutes ago, Alfascozzesi said:

I am running in Vyrkos the following

Prince V

VLOZD General

Radakur the wolf

Manny

10 x wolves

10 x wolves

10 x wolves

10 x wolves

Palisade

 

Not optimal but I like it 😎

Hero-hammer!

[Televiper11]

My latest attempt at a Double Dragon list:

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Night
Mannfred von Carstein, Mortarch of Night (380)
Prince Vhordrai (455)
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- Deathlance
20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170)
3 x Vargheists (155)
3 x Vargheists (155)
10 x Grave Guard (140)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
Extra Command Point (50)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94
 

[Okonomiyakimarine]

7 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

snip

You sir, are an angel. Also: i came to the same conclusion regarding belladamma.   That stuff is fun!

[DJMoose]

Lauka Vai WIP

[Nightseer2012]

3 hours ago, DJMoose said:

Lauka Vai WIP

Seems she is in season, can’t wait to see your paint job!

[Honk]

20 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

scoring/denying Battle Tactics each turn and achieving your Grand Strategy will provide more VP than just holding the objectives.

Good thing we have cavalry that just tramples through objective screens and other minor inconveniences…

Sadly things are a bit messy real life (nice but hectic), so no time to conquer, 

But triggering Riders of Ruin every turn with 3-5 units of knights sounds like something funny

[Malakithe]

3 hours ago, Honk said:

Good thing we have cavalry that just tramples through objective screens and other minor inconveniences…

Sadly things are a bit messy real life (nice but hectic), so no time to conquer, 

But triggering Riders of Ruin every turn with 3-5 units of knights sounds like something funny

Im curious about your version of what a list like that could look like

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Here's a new list I came up with that makes use of some of the less obviously powerful choices in Gravelords:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Blood

Leaders
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Coven Throne (310)
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (130)
- General
- Command Trait: Soul-crushing Contempt
Necromancer (125)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Prison of Grief

Battleline
5 x Black Knights (120)
30 x Grave Guard (420)
- Great Wight Blades
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)

Units
5 x Blood Knights (195)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Horrorghast (65)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138
 

Game Plan

The Wight King is the general of this list. This makes Grave Guard battleline which allows us to run a block of 30. He takes the command trait Soul-Crushing contempt for a -1 bravery aura. This choice synergizes with his Deathrattle keyword (another -1 bravery) and the Legion of Blood allegiance ability Immortal Majesty (if any models flee from battleshock, another d3 models flee).

During the game, he's supposed to join up with the Black Knights. They provide another -1 bravery which brings us to the cap, for a -3 overall. The Wight King and Black Knights both have a 12" move, with the Black Knights having an additional 6" auto-charge, so overall a fairly fast pairing. Both units also deal 1d3 impact hits on a 2+. The plan is to try to get an early charge with this unit, and hopefully trigger battleshock. The Horrorghast is in this list to help us accomplish this, preventing the use of Inspiring Presence and adding another d3 fleeing models if any flee.

I think saying that Black Knight damage is good would be overstating their value, but a Black Knight+Wight King charge is decent given their small foot print:

Save	Wight King and Knights
2+	5.22
3+	6.67
4+	8.11
5+	9.56
6+	11
-	12

The real threat is the battleshock test that follows. A normal 7 bravery, 4+ save infantry unit can expect to lose 8 models to damage, and an additional ~11,5 (4+2d3+1d6) to battleshock. Seems pretty legit!

The next big piece of the list are the Grave Guard. A block of 30 with Great Blades and Coven Throne support in Legion of Blood (immunity to hit/wound debuffs from Favoured Retainers) is a terrifying force to face. They kill anything they touch, get that 4+ save and can still take command abilities in the combat phase if you need them to (All-Out Defense for rend reduction for example). The Coven Throne gets Soulbound Garments for that 3+ save.

A 30 block of skeletons rounds out the battleline. As always, accompanied by a pet Necromancer to keep them alive.

Belladamma Volga is in this list to provide magic support, and she brings along a unit of Direwolves to make use of her bodyguard ability. She takes the spell Spirit Gale, which further capitalizes on the bravery debuffs this list already brings. Here's the expected damage given her +1 to cast bonus:

Bravery	Damage
10	0,26
9	0,66
8	1,3
7	2,28
6	3,26
5	4,18
4	4,95
3	5,54
2	5,87
1	7,04

The list gets rounded out by a unit of Blood Knights that are supposed to act on their own, but can take support from mutliple sources if an opportunity arises. The last 45 points left over are filled by Chronomantic Cogs to help with early charges, especially for Grave Guard deep striking from the grave.

Variations

You can leave Belladamma, the Wolves and Chronomantic Cogs at home bring Neferata for full Legion of Blood role playing. It's not a bad choice, either. Neferata is a double caster just like Belladamma, but is also a monster (which this list otherwise lacks), counts as general in addition, and brings further defensive synergy and fun abilities to the table. Might be the better choice, but it leaves you without any screens.

On the other hand, if you don't care about being true to the Legion of Blood fluff, you can leave the skeletons and necromancer and bring another 10 dire wolves and 40 Zombies instead for more bodies and ground coverage.

The list can support the solid core battalion combination of Warlord or Command Entourage+Battle Regiment, giving you 5/4 drops and an enhancement. A good candidate for your enhancement would be the Amulet of Destiny for a 5+ ward on the Wight King, who then becomes not exactly tanky, but at a 3+/5+ and 7 wounds will not be completely trivial to kill. Useful since he's the only general in this list, so you want to keep him alive if possible.

Closing Thoughts

What I like about this list is that it makes use of the fairly situational allegiance abilities of Legion of Blood. Just about all of them are useful in this list: The extra battleshock casualties, the hit/wound debuff immunity for Deathrattle, the Black Knight battleline... Black Knights and the Wight King also get a bit of a boost from it, becoming a reliable (and situationally great) shock unit. This list will be my casual list, and I wrote it mainly to make use of all the models I like, but I think it should be strong enough to have a chance a gainst a lot of different armies.

[Liquidsteel]

Just in general, I think if bringing a 30 of Grave Guard + support, it might be worthwhile using the new Hunters battalion from the GHB, to make them immune to the monstrous abilities, in particular roar, to ensure you can buff them as needed during the combat phase.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Just in general, I think if bringing a 30 of Grave Guard + support, it might be worthwhile using the new Hunters battalion from the GHB, to make them immune to the monstrous abilities, in particular roar, to ensure you can buff them as needed during the combat phase.

Probably a good idea. In the list I posted, it's less of a consideration, because the Grave Guard are supposed to get the Coven Throne buff most of the time, which is in the hero phase. Not sure if roar/stomp immunity is worth 2 extra drops. This list kind of wants to go second.

[Frowny]

What are peoples net thoughts on the high-end soulblight from a competitive standpoint? Specifically 2 questions-

1) Avengori Lord/Lauka Vai from a competitive standpoint?

On one hand, they are relatively expensive (although not nearly so much as a VLOZD), but they seem to be pretty much our sturdiest monster per point, with a 3+ save and ignoring rend -1. 

I can see them being useful as a pinning piece, throwing them forward turn one with a 2+ ignoring rend -1 and making it a pain for enemies to kill them. But maybe its better to just take more blood knights

2) Double VLOZD competitively?

Certainly cool, and there are some things that reward it for the objectives, but they are a TON of points. One might be better off with just a lot more blood knights, who competitively seem great. Not saying they aren't fun though.

 

[Warbossironteef]

I want to make a PSA about SBGL and our big, high points monsters. They have 0 built in +'s to charge. This is extremely important in the new world of AOS 3 and REDEPLOY. Redeploy is going to be a huge game changer and something we all need to learn to play around. 

Without easy access to +2 or more to charge our best options are using speed to get 3 inches away from the unit we want to charge or getting something else into combat first. This 2nd one is why I think Belladamma Volga and Spellportal is almost an auto-include.

It's one of the best ways to make sure single wound infantry units can't escape you, and just as good, cant stand and shoot at you. Imagine a common scenario, say against Skaven. They are screening their 6xStormfiends with some clan rats. They are keeping their Stormfiends kind of close to the Clan rats so they could shoot over the top of them when they get charged. You cast Lycancurse on the Clan rats kiling one. You position the single Direwolf as far out from the rats as you can, 3 inches, and it is now within 3 inches of both units. Stopping the Rats from retreating if you move within 9 inches and stopping the Stormfiends from Unleashing Hell.

I think if you're using Prince or VLOZD, very expensive melee units, this is in an invaluable tool. They are fast but can still be thwarted by Redeploy. I know others have talked about Bella +Portals but when you go through all the uses it can have, it's very good. Just wanted to share because that Stormfiends example was a real one for me and was huge in helping me win.

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty

-Battle Regiment and Command Entourage (Spell Enhancement)

LEADERS
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Prince Vhordrai (455)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General - +5 Ward Save
- Command Trait: Hunter's Snare
- Deathlance
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions + Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (125)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Prison of Grief + Spectral Grasp
UNITS
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
10 x Dire Wolves (135)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Umbral Spellportal (70)
TOTAL: 1995/2000

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Without easy access to +2 or more to charge our best options are using speed to get 3 inches away from the unit we want to charge or getting something else into combat first. This 2nd one is why I think Belladamma Volga and Spellportal is almost an auto-include.

This is a problem I have been thinking about in the context of trying to get that Grave Guard charge from deep strike.

The good news is that the opponent does not get to redeploy in that scenario, because coming in from the grave is not a move, and you are outside of 9" anyway. But hitting that 9" charge is not exactly easy. You really need to earmark a command point for Foreward To Victory to even be looking at a coin flip. With Cogs and a reroll you are looking at 66% odds.

That is why I think lists that build around Grave Guard and really need that early charge should try their hardest to go second. In that case, the Grave Guard are protected turn 1, since they are in the grave. You can try to get the turn 1 charge with them, but in the case it does not work out you at least get to try again turn 2 without your opponent having a chance to move out of the way. On turn 2, I would definitely move in 4" to at least make them waste a point to Redeploy, though. If they don't the charge is guaranteed. If they do, at least the odds are in your favour that your next charge will be closer than the last.

I also think having a way to reliably get that +1 to save on grave guard is pretty crucial, because no matter how much work you put in, there is always a substantial chance that they will just fail their charge and get counter charged instead. For what it's worth, they can somewhat handle it if they are on a 4+/6++, possibly ignore rend -1. You can always heal them back up after with Deathly Invocation/Invigorating Aura/Rally.

These kinds of difficulties are also why I consider Grave Guard a build-around unit if you are planning to bring units larger than 10 models. I think their ridiculous damage is worth it, but they require a lot of support becuase they are so hard to get into position.

[Warbossironteef]

5 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This is a problem I have been thinking about in the context of trying to get that Grave Guard charge from deep strike.

The good news is that the opponent does not get to redeploy in that scenario, because coming in from the grave is not a move, and you are outside of 9" anyway. But hitting that 9" charge is not exactly easy. You really need to earmark a command point for Foreward To Victory to even be looking at a coin flip. With Cogs and a reroll you are looking at 66% odds.

That is why I think lists that build around Grave Guard and really need that early charge should try their hardest to go second. In that case, the Grave Guard are protected turn 1, since they are in the grave. You can try to get the turn 1 charge with them, but in the case it does not work out you at least get to try again turn 2 without your opponent having a chance to move out of the way. On turn 2, I would definitely move in 4" to at least make them waste a point to Redeploy, though. If they don't the charge is guaranteed. If they do, at least the odds are in your favour that your next charge will be closer than the last.

I also think having a way to reliably get that +1 to save on grave guard is pretty crucial, because no matter how much work you put in, there is always a substantial chance that they will just fail their charge and get counter charged instead. For what it's worth, they can somewhat handle it if they are on a 4+/6++, possibly ignore rend -1. You can always heal them back up after with Deathly Invocation/Invigorating Aura/Rally.

These kinds of difficulties are also why I consider Grave Guard a build-around unit if you are planning to bring units larger than 10 models. I think their ridiculous damage is worth it, but they require a lot of support becuase they are so hard to get into position.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by, "but in the case it does not work out you at least get to try again turn 2 without your opponent having a chance to move out of the way." Do you mean if you win priority and get the double turn?

I love Grave Guard and their potential output is awesome, especially when buffed, but I have a really bad feeling they won't be fit for AOS3. They cant move fast, unless you pop them out of grave for long charges (you can't buff them if you do this and it's unreliable). They also can't take a punch and they aren't battleline without help, so you can only take groups of 20. 

I want them to be good, and sometimes they probably will be good, but I think they will be shoot off or charged much more than they will be charging and smashing. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

53 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by, "but in the case it does not work out you at least get to try again turn 2 without your opponent having a chance to move out of the way." Do you mean if you win priority and get the double turn?

Yeah, exactly. I guess I phrased that a bit weird, haha.

 

53 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

I love Grave Guard and their potential output is awesome, especially when buffed, but I have a really bad feeling they won't be fit for AOS3. They cant move fast, unless you pop them out of grave for long charges (you can't buff them if you do this and it's unreliable). They also can't take a punch and they aren't battleline without help, so you can only take groups of 20. 

I want them to be good, and sometimes they probably will be good, but I think they will be shoot off or charged much more than they will be charging and smashing. 

Yeah, my thought are along the same lines. Grave Guard look really good at first glance just because of the sheer damage they put out, but they just require so much effort to bring their strength to bear. Blood Knights just seem like so much less of a hassle to deal with, as a Gravelords player.

But maybe the future of Grave Guard is just not in big, buffed up blocks. MSU Grave Guard with two hand weapons look kind of interesting. They won't be your main threat in this case, but rather a small, dangerous unit your opponent needs to be aware of and play around if they don't suddenly want to take, like, 20 wounds out of nowhere.

[Liquidsteel]

It's worth considering that we're on a smaller board, and from what I can see, objectives appear to be closer to the middle, in general, rather than the sides.

This means the fighting will be more concentrated if you want it to be.

This will help something like a big unit of 30 grave guard, that you pop out somewhere near the centre, to really shine, as in order to avoid them the opponent will need to not be there.

You can also use things like redeploy to your advantage, to actually move closer to the enemy in their turn.

[Honk]

4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im curious about your version of what a list like that could look like

My take:

coven throne, vengorian lord, belladamma, kritza 

4x5 bloodknights 2x10 direwolves

1935 so some wiggle room left

the whole army moves fast, the knights just double with a big hero and are as such very independent. CA of the throne helps, vangorian heals itself, is pretty tanky and the spell is nice…

if bodies are needed, the wolves charge in, granny vyrkos is just too good

kritza is just as afterthought and resurrects where needed… adding hero support out of nowhere.

this list is just an idea, maybe wiggle the throne for Mannfred (2005 😿), throw out kritza and enter Fell bats for 1985

 

Of course a big unit of bloodknights is easier to buff, but I think they are pretty self sufficient and with the riders, you never want them in one place fighting it out anyway. The Aura of Manni is great and he could „nope away“ too…

All those musings are just tea leaves and paper scribbles, but the ability to move freely around the board, applying pressure very fluidly dealing mortals as an afterthought is pretty strong… but will also test our positioning and targeting skills