General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

If lots of people felt Sylvaneth were NPE, that'd be a reason to redesign them. But lots of people don't think that.

If you are challenging the idea that LRL are more disliked than other factions, that's fine, although a little surprising to me. I thought we were all on the same page re: LRL being more disliked than other armies, and that your argument was just that it doesn't matter. 

You didn't really answer my question, though. If it's not about the rules to you, it's about having fun with your mates, why would you care if the rules were redesigned to be more fun for the person on the receiving end? 

Like let me give you a concrete example here of what I'm talking about. Compare Teclis to a Lord of Change. They both have super powerful casting and dispelling abilities - but the LoC still has to roll dice (or use a limited resource that is better used for other things). It's possible for it to fail casts, and it's possible for it to fail that key unbind. It's not likely, but it's possible. Teclis just auto-passes, and auto-unbinds, and can even change the value of the automatic success if he needs to, just to be doubly sure the opponent absolutely won't be able to do anything to stop him. Would it really be such a travesty if Teclis was reworked to cast and unbind more like the Lov does - i.e. with very high but not absolutely guaranteed success? If this makes the opponent feel more engaged in the game and less like a passenger just watching you do your thing, isn't that a better way to design a warscroll? 

 

Yup, I'm not on the same page with that. I believe that some people genuinely don't like playing against them. But, from a lot of the comments I see,  I have the strong feeling that the person posting has likely never played against them and has ulterior motives. 

To answer your question  why would I object to changing the rules to make it make it more fun for them? First of all, of course rules also play part of my fun. It's not totally detached from that. I love playing a magic-heavy army which has a lot of tricks. Then, there is the question - why should the feelings of my opponent being worth more than mine, they guy who bought the army knowing its rules and playstyle? I don't complain about your army, why should the rules of mine being changed, just because someone says they don't like them? Is that great? 

And if they change them to something they don't like again? Change them again? Or someone else doesn't like it now? What I'd do finstead is, not bring Teclis, see if they like a Alarith based list, which is more focused on melee, and doesn't have a lot of the stuff people might not like. Then, I still can play my favorite play style against other people who do not care about it - or even prefer it. I've been asked to bring Teclis, because someone wanted to play against him for example. 

To your Teclis/Lord of Change example: It wouldn't be an absolute travesty to re-work the rules so that Teclis would work more like a Lord of Change. And if they'd  done that in the first place, it would have been ok, although pretty boring in my view.

But, on the other hand: Teclis is a unique model, the God of Magic, and they gave him an ability no-one else has. That's great, when you play him, you really feel like you play with a God of Magic, something special, you forked out a lot of money for that model, so at least is should be a bit interesting. That's also something we want in the game, unique abilities for our models. The LoV has his own unique ability. Teclis ability also involves a bit of tactical thinking in some cases, although not that often. In that respect I think the rule could have been better, most of the time you take the 4 spells (which means most of the time it's not guaranteed, and you can try to dispel them). But the ability does provide unique tactics and challenges. It's different. In most cases you can still roll and try to dispel it, and likely with at least as good a chance as you'd have with a Lord of Change. So why do you even care that much? If I use Teclis to auto-cast one spell - that's such a negative experience for you? Really? Otherwise I have no change of influencing the outcome. I have to declare how many spells (which also sets the casting value in place) I cast at the start of the hero phase. I can't change it later. 

Also your comparison is a bit off, you should have compared this to the Destiny Dice - the things that make the LoV unique. And has the same effect btw. - to guarantee the outcome of what he does. And it's again very flavorful, the LoV knows the future, they can literally stack the dice in their favor. It's great! You also want to get rid of that ability? That's the only thing that counts - that your opponent under every circumstance has to roll a dice? Because that's most important thing for you? And because you have to suffer once every turn in case you have an opponent who plays Teclis, just because this apparently causes such a trauma - we have to change a unique ability? I rather have more variety and interesting abilities, even if I don't like all of them. 

Edit: The Slaanesh rework had also very much to do with the power level. And, have you seen the reactions to the re-work? Might still cause a lot of NPE, and is less fun for Slaanesh players. Is that really such a great example? 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by LuminethMage

[Austin]

Can we just take a moment and appreciate the claims of a Negative Play Experience about models that literally nobody has played against yet (outside beta testers)?

And don’t tell me it’s “because I can tell how the rules will play” when the justification for calling something a NPE in this exact thread is how it feels to actually play against it, not theorycraft it. 
 

Give me a break. 

[Doko]

I think seeing the insane number of post in discord,facebook,reddit,here and other forums or youtube about people calling overpower,broken or npe to lumineths we can say for sure they must have some true.

Due to covid we havent enough data to can see the real number(5 games tournaments), but the numbers that we have put lumineth very near to the top tier.

But we have many armys more powerfull than lumineths(dok,idoneths,seraphons,tzenth or kharadrons) and is imposible deny that if we add all the post whining about these armys we gonna have less than the post about only lumineth.

To me (and seems everyone) isnt fun playing against lumineths.

 

It is as a pvp mmorpg.

 

Option 1--Playing a melle dps with 0 control against a control class,you are controled with sleeps,roots,freeze etc and you die without can hit to your rival.

Option 2-- Playing a melle dps without controll against other dps without control,you can do you rotation of skills and you have fun even if you rival have more damage than you and kill you.

 

To me lumineths are the option 1 are per example fyreslayers playing against lumineths. The fyreslayer gonna have his heroes killed doing useless every combo and the veill lady gonna do useless the deathstar of 20 berzerkers doing the game unfun even if the fyreslayer can win.

Option 2 can be fyreslayers against ironjaws or fec,dont matter who win,everyone gonna can do his combos and have fun.

 

I dont know if the mmorpg example have been acurate but it is as i see it.

 

To me is funnier be stomped in turn 2 if i could play my army that if i win at turn 5 and i couldnt play my army

 

[Kitsumy]

Yes i dont get the hate lumineths got. They arent even on top tier, not even cloose of tzench,dok,kroak( not sersphon) or karadrons. So why the hate?

 

The term npe sound too stupid to me. Why is teclis autocadting 4 spells at 10 worse for someone than nagash per example? He cast double spells than teclis at 10 on average for only 200p or so more, and he also dispells at average 10 if im not mistaken when teclis havent any bonus to dispell besides the 1 autodispell.

 

So if im a undead without shoting should i cry everytime someone shot me? And gw should remove it.

 

If im a dwarf magic should be removed, since i cant do anything to stop it! So is unfun

 

By the way, why arent prayers army unfun?? U cant do anything to stop them neither. So prayers should be removed too!

 

I think everyone get my point... There are many things as unfun as lumineth skills, and on more powerful armys too but it dont means everything besides melee hit, wound hit and save roll must be deleted. Lumineth do lot of different things. And it isnt a bad thing and dont need any change, unless they be overpower, and they arent at least till now.

[LuminethMage]

17 minutes ago, Doko said:

I think seeing the insane number of post in discord,facebook,reddit,here and other forums or youtube about people calling overpower,broken or npe to lumineths we can say for sure they must have some true.

Due to covid we havent enough data to can see the real number(5 games tournaments), but the numbers that we have put lumineth very near to the top tier.

But we have many armys more powerfull than lumineths(dok,idoneths,seraphons,tzenth or kharadrons) and is imposible deny that if we add all the post whining about these armys we gonna have less than the post about only lumineth.

To me (and seems everyone) isnt fun playing against lumineths.

 

It is as a pvp mmorpg.

 

Option 1--Playing a melle dps with 0 control against a control class,you are controled with sleeps,roots,freeze etc and you die without can hit to your rival.

Option 2-- Playing a melle dps without controll against other dps without control,you can do you rotation of skills and you have fun even if you rival have more damage than you and kill you.

 

To me lumineths are the option 1 are per example fyreslayers playing against lumineths. The fyreslayer gonna have his heroes killed doing useless every combo and the veill lady gonna do useless the deathstar of 20 berzerkers doing the game unfun even if the fyreslayer can win.

Option 2 can be fyreslayers against ironjaws or fec,dont matter who win,everyone gonna can do his combos and have fun.

 

I dont know if the mmorpg example have been acurate but it is as i see it.

 

To me is funnier be stomped in turn 2 if i could play my army that if i win at turn 5 and i couldnt play my army

 

Posts like this one are exactly why I think we have to take most of the critique with a grain of salt.

Hyperbolic arguments, and in the end just a complaint that a certain strategy (20 berserker deathstar) doesn't work against Lumineth. 

If I was to play 3 x 10 Warden and 3 x 10 Sentinels and an Orruks army Smashes and Bashes me of the table in t1, can we please change that ability? It's really not fun for me. No interaction. Total NPE. I couldn't really play. And nothing I could have done about it. 

I'd rather play against Serpahon where I can have great tactical exchanges with their spell casters. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by LuminethMage

[Doko]

2 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Posts like this one are exactly why I think we have to take most of the critique with a grain of salt.

Then seeing the amount of these post rigth now in every web you gonna have a big pile of salt.

But i guess everyone are elf haters,lumineths are underpower,are very fun of play and against and all the huge numbers of cryers are liers.

As i said if we have many armys more powerfull than lumineths,why we have this huge number of post against lumineths?

 

Elfs haters? Then because we have sylvaneths,dok,idoneths,high elfs,wood elf,dark elfs and nobody have these post even if dok is more powerfull than lumineth?

 

You can try deny but the number of posts show who have the reason.

Where are all the post whining about your example of orruks stomping lumineths in turn1 and npe? I can show you 99999999 diferent post about how fun is play against lumineths

[Doko]

12 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

I'd rather play against Serpahon where I can have great tactical exrchanges with their spell casters.

Btw you would have fun in that great tactical exchange.........autocasting with 0 counterplay the key spell with teclis while autounbinding the sumon of the valewind every turn.

 

Yes a great tactical and hard choice.....and fun for the seraphon.

 

Plz tell us more example of you supposed fun games against lumineths so we can iluminate you

[yukishiro1]

Hard counters make for bad games. So if for example Fyreslayers don't have any way to win against LRL (at least not with a build that works vs anyone else), that actually is a big problem. Now Fyreslayers are another badly designed faction, interestingly, and one that can actually be quite NPE as well in its own way, in that certain armies just can't beat them, and they in turn just can't beat other factions, albeit the factions they lose to are the ones that happen to be dominant right now, so you hardly see them. 

It's probably not a big coincidence that most of the problematic armies in the game right now are variations on extremely reliable buff castles of one sort or another, or that the most powerful one, Seraphon, is essentially a buff castle that doesn't need to actually castle, which is why it's top dog.  

If I was an AOS designer working on 3.0, I'd be trying to move the game away from reliable stacked buff castles and towards a game where you have to spread out and units have to function with more autonomy. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Kitsumy]

2 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Seraphon, is essentially a buff castle that doesn't need to actually castle, which is why it's top dog

Kroak, not seraphon is top dog because it can increase his 10" spell to 24, delete balewind and u will see how that castle crumble

[NinthMusketeer]

I, for one, think we should trust these leaks implicitly and pass judgement on them before we have the full context or any actual testing. And we should definitely overreact!

I kid of course, obviously this isn't a run-of-the-mill leak and some of these abilities are pretty potent. But I do want to remind people of the nastiness we already deal with just to put things into context. Just from current Lumineth we have Sentinels sniping without line of sight from 30" away, ignoring hit penalties because they only care about the MW damage from unmodified rolls anyways. We have the twinstones more or less throwing out +2 to cast to most the army, we have a spell that doubles the cost of using command abilities board wide, we have Teclis dropping 36" diameter MW bubbles through spellportals... and so much more!

We have Slaanesh reasonably (if not easily) summoning a free Keeper of Secrets every turn!

We have DoK cutting the middle man out of Sentinels and just MW shooting you after teleporting 9" away!

We have Kroak making our units croak with aoe MW blasts hitting most of the table!

We have KO dropping a Warp Lightning Vortex in the middle of your army turn 1!

We have Tzeentch!

We have half the units in StD aspiring to be marauders when they grow up!

We have bonereapers boning us with Katakros replacing petrifax in giving the army +1 to saves!

And so, so much more. If a new release wants to compete with the existing cheese of AoS that cheddar better be sharp enough to cut a limb off.

[yukishiro1]

The new Lumineth stuff actually looks less problematic to me than the old stuff from an interactivity point of view,  although equally overstuffed with miscellaneous abilities of varying worth. Whoever decided that every LRL unit has to have like eleventy bajillion different weird abilities, some of which break the normal rules of the game while others do pretty much nothing...I hope they aren't the lead designer on AOS 3.0. 

[NinthMusketeer]

6 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

The new Lumineth stuff actually looks less problematic to me than the old stuff from an interactivity point of view,  although equally overstuffed with miscellaneous abilities of varying worth. Whoever decided that every LRL unit has to have like eleventy bajillion different weird abilities, some of which break the normal rules of the game while others do pretty much nothing...I hope they aren't the lead designer on AOS 3.0. 

I believe they really wanted to make Lumineth feel like a uniquely skilled and exotic faction in their rules mechanics, and I think they have really succeeded there. I see a lot more things that have immense tactical depth than things which are needlessly convoluted or OP. From the start Lumineth have been an intricate army with more of a learning curve than most, they have always been clearly presented as a complicated-play force. For someone who is intimidated by all these new rules for their army... it is ok! The basic core of the Lumineth army (that being what you already have) is quite good and can absolutely make for an effective build all on its own! For those concerned about needing to play against all these rules it is OK; while Lumineth have a load of special abilities and rule-ignoring effects, a given list is extremely unlikely to have all of those at once, or even a majority. I won't lie; there will be a learning curve in going up against Lumineth (more than there already was) but the upside is that's because there are ways to counter-play a lot of these abilities. Sometimes quite harshly.

[yukishiro1]

I dunno, to me good game design is having a smaller number of abilities that can be utilized in interesting ways, rather than a bajillion different things to stack together in intricate but rather predictable ways. And I don't think making one faction "uniquely skilled and exotic" makes a lot of sense - factions should be equally compelling from a rules perspective, just in different ways, I don't think having some that are just more complicated for the sake of being complicated is all that useful a way to design things, especially when it contributes to the buff-stacking that is the source of most balance problems in the game right now.

Which is actually why I like the new stuff more. It seems generally less geared towards standing in a lame buff castle that your opponent can't interact with, and more geared towards actually, well, playing the game. 

 

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

Then seeing the amount of these post rigth now in every web you gonna have a big pile of salt.

But i guess everyone are elf haters,lumineths are underpower,are very fun of play and against and all the huge numbers of cryers are liers.

As i said if we have many armys more powerfull than lumineths,why we have this huge number of post against lumineths?

 

Elfs haters? Then because we have sylvaneths,dok,idoneths,high elfs,wood elf,dark elfs and nobody have these post even if dok is more powerfull than lumineth?

 

You can try deny but the number of posts show who have the reason.

Where are all the post whining about your example of orruks stomping lumineths in turn1 and npe? I can show you 99999999 diferent post about how fun is play against lumineths

I didn't say everyone. I understand that they aren't fun for everyone. I get some of the arguments, for example what Yukishiro1 is saying. These issues are not black/white.

There is a difference between Lumineth and DoK, Sylvaneth. Both of those didn't just get a bunch of new stuff. In fact, for a new battletome what DoK got is kinda meh in terms of models. There is far less envy involved because of that. Lumineth combine a lot of things: HE successor (some people are ticked off lone because of that), magic-centric army, lots of focus for a year now because of Covid, a whole bunch of new models, many rules, which make them look special in comparison to several other armies, some abilities people don't like etc.). It all comes together. I'm sure there are also people out there who have absolutely nothing against Lumineth as such and  just don't like playing against them because of their rules. I doubt that's the majority though. 

I don't overall see that many posts about them to be honest, and often from the same people. I could point towards our Lumineth forum and tell you they must be one of the most popular armies and everything is fine, because hey, there are a lot of posts there saying this! You can see it here too, right in this thread - it's not like it's mass movement. Or over in the "rumour thread", around as many people got annoyed about the post on how annoying LRL are as there were posts about them being annoying. 

It probably depends where you hang out. I'm sure in some places you see a lot of negative comments. 

Having numbers, doesn't mean you have to be right. Especially not on the internet. Anyway we'll see. It's neither in your nor my hands. Maybe GW agrees and changes the LRL in several months down the road. This happened before. Maybe they don't and people just move on to the next big bad. I wouldn't get worked up so much about it. If you have Lumineth players locally, talk to them and see if you can work things out - so that hopefully everyone has fun.

[NinthMusketeer]

23 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

I dunno, to me good game design is having a smaller number of abilities that can be utilized in interesting ways, rather than a bajillion different things to stack together in intricate but rather predictable ways. And I don't think making one faction "uniquely skilled and exotic" makes a lot of sense - factions should be equally compelling from a rules perspective, just in different ways, I don't think having some that are just more complicated for the sake of being complicated is all that useful a way to design things, especially when it contributes to the buff-stacking that is the source of most balance problems in the game right now.

Which is actually why I like the new stuff more. It seems generally less geared towards standing in a lame buff castle that your opponent can't interact with, and more geared towards actually, well, playing the game. 

 

I am relatively sure we are on the same page here. I was having trouble explaining what I meant.

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

And so, so much more. If a new release wants to compete with the existing cheese of AoS that cheddar better be sharp enough to cut a limb off.

That is still my main issue with AoS. New Lumineth seems to be tricky, but not worst than what we already have in the game.

There are A LOT of things to learn with this new gimmicks, but that's the case for Lumineth's opponents too. After some games, I still believe that Lumineths are going to move again to Sentinels and Wardens (if we are lucky, maybe with 500 points of new warscrolls, but I'm not so sure about that). I really, really hope to be wrong in that assumption! 

[JackStreicher]

42 minutes ago, Beliman said:

New Lumineth seems to be tricky, but not worst than what we already have in the game.

I disagree. they're pumped up with special rules like no other faction. During a game they will do their thing while you can try to do your army's thing that is if the LRL won't stop you from doing that without any effort. #FuN

imo the LRL do frankly have a stupid and ignorant design philisophy that is disheartening for anyone playing against them. Why some people think that is okay is beyond me.

Edited March 26, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Beliman]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I disagree. they're pumped up with special rules like no other faction. During a game they will do their thing while you can try to do your army's thing that is if the LRL won't stop you from doing that without any effort. #FuN

Hey, don't get me wrong!!! I agree that there are mechanics that are not really fun to play (and a lot of them were in the first wave of Lumineth). But I think that being tabbled in 2 or 3 turns is a lot worst.

[JackStreicher]

7 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Hey, don't get me wrong!!! I agree that there are mechanics that are not really fun to play (and a lot of them were in the first wave of Lumineth). But I think that being tabbled in 2 or 3 turns is a lot worst.

Mhm tricky ^^
Is it worth to end the game early or to have a longer arduous game?  depends on opinion I guess ^^

Edited March 26, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Souleater]

Lumineth have had so much stuff that they've blocked the Suez Canal! 😁

As a long time Dark Elf and Dark Eldar player, I like RP 'mocking' High Elf types. And the Great Enemy, of course.

The only thing I find annoying about wave 2 Lumineth are the handful of folks complaining about the purchase of a new battletome or BR book.  But then I come from a generation where I regularly went four or five years without an update. 🤷‍♂️

[Beliman]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

Mhm tricky ^^
Is it worth to end the game early or to have a longer arduous game?  depends on opinion I guess ^^

No need for a longer and arduous game!!! Just shake hands and move on, at least, you will be the one that will decide when to stop playing 🤣

 

[Jaskier]

I like all the different abilities Lumineth have; as long as they don't break the game (which obviously is always a point of contention) they make playing an army more fun and give them more of an identity. I like playing Sylvaneth because they put trees everywhere and can teleport through them. I like playing new Slaanesh because the army really rewards smart movement over just optimizing to summon a fresh army when your initial force dies. I like playing Daughters of Khaine because they are a melee horde that grows stronger and stronger as the game goes on to offset their losses. All those quirky Lumineth rules make me want to play with and against Lumineth, not the opposite!

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jaskier

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

When the Lumineth came out first - TGA had an interview podcast with play testers, and they liked playing with and against the Lumineth. My opponents haven't complained either - but to be fair I haven't had that many in-person games so far. So it's a very limited sample size. 

Like Athrawes said, a lot of this seems overblown. I don't mean yourself, but there are many people who just don't like elves, don't understand how an actual Lumineth list looks like, or have ulterior motives when complaining about "NPE". And NPE is such a fuzzy concept, which also has a lot to do how someone general feels  towards an army or a certain playstyle. For example, I have problems when certain DoK players complain so much about LRL ignoring game rules (Morathi?) or interactivity (priests?). 

Another example - your case - and I don't mean you aren't right, if you don't like something, you don't like it, that's fine. But generally speaking "reducing the effect an opponent can have" is something that most armies have in some form or another. It's also something that if you can overcome it, will contribute to your own fun. On top if it, it can be fun for the player to have such abilities, and it contributes to having all kind of play styles and player types in the game, which are good things. 

"Control"-like armies/characters, relying on debuffing your opponent are a staple in strategic, fantasy, RPG games. So in my view, it's good to have one or two armies in the game who can do that (although you can disagree with that of course). The same is true for magic heavy, or shooting armies. Not everyone likes going up against those, but they contribute to the overall variety and health of the game in my view. Of course that doesn't mean, they shouldn't change some of the abilities if they are too powerful or limiting, but all the complaining about NPE seems a bit much to me. 

AoS started as a game with many melee focused armies. Shooting and magic were just "flavor" for the most part. The more the game grows, the more they need to offer different play styles, which will bring in new players, but  this naturally will also annoy some of the older players who basically don't want the game to change, or get back to the old game (or just players who don't like certain play styles). Which is fine. But that doesn't mean that the game got objectively worse, or armies that work differently are objectively "NPE" and have to be changed. 

For you the Cathallar might feel unfair (an ability once per turn on one unit on a 5 W, 5+ save hero no less). For me it could be a Mawcrusher, Witch Aelves, a KO boat, or any other thing. 

I think most of those issues can be solved easily in non-tournament settings. You can always talk to your opponent, but also accept that not every faction and game must be fun for both sides equally all the time,  if we want a big variety of playstyles in the game. And in a competitive tournament setting NPE shouldn't play a big role anyway. 

I and my opponents had fun games so far with LRL, but apparently not everyone does. I just don't think it's that big of a deal, and also unavoidable in a game that's not all about you and what you want. 

NPE is a fuzzy concept indeed.

One of the few games I played was with pre-CoS Free Peoples three company regiment vs a Slaanesh build, double Keeper I think (mine wasn't a painted, fully on rounds army. It wasn't even all wysiwyg or even complete units, my second or third game iirc).

It went about as well as you'd expect. Slaanesh player went first (I figured I couldn't reach anything anyway, and ran right in my face, into a lot of handgunfire. It shot up something expensive, don't recall what.

Which had him properly miffed. Note that we were still at the end of the charge phase, and this was about all I was going to get before being ripped apart . 

I was going down, knew I had no real chance of winning, but there was a gunpowder flavoured blaze of glory, but something about the great company and musician rules had him quite riled up.

For me, the "control" stuff may look nice on paper, but if I'm only occasionally needed to pick a few models off in the game I'm playing, I'm wondering why I am playing that game.

[JonnyTheKing]

I think with a few tweaks here and there in terms of points for some units or even just a bit of a core rule change in 3rd Ed you can make Lumineth a lot better. Sentinels need a complete rework though, a unit that you’d still absolutely consider taking even if it went to 200-220 points shows just how insane that warscroll is 

[AaronWilson]

I am firmly in the camp of let the army arrive, people play games and go from there with any meaningful discussion on rules. 

I think the new rules could provide a frustrating play experience, but any worse then Seraphon, Tzeentch or KO? I'm not sure.