Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[novakai]

In preparation for son of Behemat release, I finally finish my two giants I got from the old colossal crusher box two years ago

[EasyArmy]

34 minutes ago, novakai said:

In preparation for son of Behemat release, I finally finish my two giants I got from the old colossal crusher box two years ago

Nicely done, sir. Absolutely brilliant paint job. Good job on those freehand squares. 

Two fearsome looking lads if ever there were!

[schwabbele]

What you think is the reason that gw did not give the objective capture bonus when used as mercs? 
 

[El Antiguo Guardián]

Just now, schwabbele said:

What you think is the reason that gw did not give the objective capture bonus when used as mercs? 
 

Because they want that all the players bought one big guy for being used as merc, and then all the army because the rules are better, so more money options.

But just talking about the rules, because single monster models need a objective capture bonus when they´re using alone because is an army of 1-3 models units. If you´re using them as mercs you can play with an horde army and that would be totally broken.

[schwabbele]

6 minutes ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

Because they want that all the players bought one big guy for being used as merc,

makes sense, but as sce and cos main it is a super hard sell now. I really wanted to try to build a sce list with 1 sob as key element but that plan is now dead. makes me really sad actually. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

So the gargant artefact allows to cast/unbind like a wizard.

It doesn't let you dispel endless spells, because you don't gain the wizard keyword, instead it only let's you cast or unbind 'like' a wizard, nothing mentioned about dispelling like a wizard.

So this currently means that you have no way to dispel endless spells for gargants, even if taking this artefact.

Now add into the mix something like Soulsnare Shackles. Casts on a 5 and can be set up in a triangle formation around the large base of the mega gargant, with the 3 models of the spell. 

You can't fly as a gargant and you can't even use the 'longshanks' ability to walk over endless spells.

So until an FAQ corrects this in-game interaction, your 500pt mega gargant can be completely immobilised for the entire by a 40pt endless spell.

[Melcavuk]

Writing some fun, unofficial, narrative battalions to fill the void in the book

[KingBrodd]

I cannot wait to get my hands on the Battletome for all the Lore. The Sample of the Audio Drama has me so hyped!!

[Reuben Parker]

44 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So the gargant artefact allows to cast/unbind like a wizard.

It doesn't let you dispel endless spells, because you don't gain the wizard keyword, instead it only let's you cast or unbind 'like' a wizard, nothing mentioned about dispelling like a wizard.

So this currently means that you have no way to dispel endless spells for gargants, even if taking this artefact.

Now add into the mix something like Soulsnare Shackles. Casts on a 5 and can be set up in a triangle formation around the large base of the mega gargant, with the 3 models of the spell. 

You can't fly as a gargant and you can't even use the 'longshanks' ability to walk over endless spells.

So until an FAQ corrects this in-game interaction, your 500pt mega gargant can be completely immobilised for the entire by a 40pt endless spell.

They are models with less than 10 wounds as they don’t have a wound stat at all. Logically longshanks should still work as they have 0 wounds Which is equal to or less than 10. 
 

Longshanks to not work would have to be worded a model with a wounds stat 1 to 10. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

18 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Logically longshanks should still work

Yes, logically it should. But endless spells are different to normal models in that they don't have to abide by the rule of staying outside of 3".

As longshanks specifies models with a wound count, endless spells don't have a wounds characteristics so don't fall into that category. They also don't full under the category of terrain either. 

So currently longshanks doesn't work with endless spells. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Tropical Ghost General

[Reuben Parker]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Yes, logically it should. But endless spells are different to normal models in that they don't have to abide by the rule of staying outside of 3".

As longshanks specifies models with a wound count, endless spells don't have a wounds characteristics so don't fall into that category. They also don't full under the category of terrain either. 

So currently longshanks doesn't work with endless spells. 

I see what your saying. maybe be a day one faq we already need one for the lantern to be in line with the designers comments. 
 

I guess the only other defence would be to have multiple bases together touching to stop the triangle point pinning. 

[Ganigumo]

Something I just realized. Since forbidden power is legal Fyreslayer and FEC mercs should still be legal too.

A list that runs 2 megas, 4 solo gargants comes in at 1680 with 6 units. 1 in 4 would allow 2 merc units in the remaining 320 points. Obviously there will be other possible setups too.

This could be used to bring in some screens which would be a MASSIVE boon to our army.

[Moogypies]

33 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Something I just realized. Since forbidden power is legal Fyreslayer and FEC mercs should still be legal too.

A list that runs 2 megas, 4 solo gargants comes in at 1680 with 6 units. 1 in 4 would allow 2 merc units in the remaining 320 points. Obviously there will be other possible setups too.

This could be used to bring in some screens which would be a MASSIVE boon to our army.

I hadn't even considered using mercs other then the gargants, time to think it over and see if any are potentially worth the sacrifice of 2 mancrushers. 

At 320 you could get from FEC-
30 Ghouls
6 Horrors
3 Flayers
Archregent (Summons a unit of 20 for 1cp later also) and is a wizard for unbinds.
2 Varghulf
2 Ghoul kings 

If you went a unit of 3 mancrusher / 1 solo you would get 360-380 pts to use depending on what Megas you pick.
Which could nab you any of the following
40 Ghouls 
6 Horrors
6 Flayers
Archregent
2 Ghoul Kings

We would also not generate a CP turn 1. Thats another big loss. 

I see the reasoning of a screen, but crypt ghouls have a move of 6 which the gargants will surpass fast so i'd find it hard to hold a big boy back so much for the screen to cover him. Without their 6+fnp they will fold so quickly.

Flayers can keep up, have the same wounds as a mancrusher and a worse save. I feel overall in a sons army a mancrusher will be more effective as it can run/charge near a big boy, has better survivability and better objective capture potential. 

An archregent does seem the most worth it though, a 2 cast/deny wizard who can summon a unit of 20 objective holders, it also leaves you with enough for a free CP to offset the merc cost and buy an endless spell. 

Struggling to find any value at all in fyreslayers at this point range.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Moogypies

[Ganigumo]

36 minutes ago, Moogypies said:

I hadn't even considered using mercs other then the gargants, time to think it over and see if any are potentially worth the sacrifice of 2 mancrushers. 

At 320 you could get from FEC-
30 Ghouls
6 Horrors
3 Flayers
Archregent (Summons a unit of 20 for 1cp later also) and is a wizard for unbinds.
2 Varghulf
2 Ghoul kings 

If you went a unit of 3 mancrusher / 1 solo you would get 360-380 pts to use depending on what Megas you pick.
Which could nab you any of the following
40 Ghouls 
6 Horrors
6 Flayers
Archregent
2 Ghoul Kings

We would also not generate a CP turn 1. Thats another big loss. 

I see the reasoning of a screen, but crypt ghouls have a move of 6 which the gargants will surpass fast so i'd find it hard to hold a big boy back so much for the screen to cover him. Without their 6+fnp they will fold so quickly.

Flayers can keep up, have the same wounds as a mancrusher and a worse save. I feel overall in a sons army a mancrusher will be more effective as it can run/charge near a big boy, has better survivability and better objective capture potential. 

An archregent does seem the most worth it though, a 2 cast/deny wizard who can summon a unit of 20 objective holders, it also leaves you with enough for a free CP to offset the merc cost and buy an endless spell. 

Struggling to find any value at all in fyreslayers at this point range.

While the mercs would be slower, it would allow us to zone out deepstrikes against some armies, and block alpha strikes against others, and even if the mercs force us to slow down our giants going slow is better than having a stonehorn charge our mega gargant.

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Something I just realized. Since forbidden power is legal Fyreslayer and FEC mercs should still be legal too.

Unfortunately mercs aren't matched play legal. 

The original 2 mercs were in Forbidden Power. These rules got superceded by a later publication, GHB19, which expanded the mercs to 8 or so different options. Meaning that the mercs in Forbidden Power were an older publication of those particular rules and no longer usable for match play. 

When they did the recent list of usable publications for matched play, GHB19 wasn't on the list, so mercs are no longer matched play legal (without consent from your opponent). Forbidden Power was on the list of usable publications but the mercs part of it had already been updated with new rules, that were then redundant with the release of GHB20. 

1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:

I see what your saying. maybe be a day one faq we already need one for the lantern to be in line with the designers comments. 

All it needs is for a slight rewrite to change it to the bearer becomes a Wizard. Therefore it gains the wizard keyword, knows arcane bolt & mystic shield and can try and dispel or cast endless spells. 

[El Antiguo Guardián]

Anyone knows the allies list of the SoB?

[Nezzhil]

14 minutes ago, El Antiguo Guardián said:

Anyone knows the allies list of the SoB?

They can't have allies.

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Unfortunately mercs aren't matched play legal. 

The original 2 mercs were in Forbidden Power. These rules got superceded by a later publication, GHB19, which expanded the mercs to 8 or so different options. Meaning that the mercs in Forbidden Power were an older publication of those particular rules and no longer usable for match play. 

When they did the recent list of usable publications for matched play, GHB19 wasn't on the list, so mercs are no longer matched play legal (without consent from your opponent). Forbidden Power was on the list of usable publications but the mercs part of it had already been updated with new rules, that were then redundant with the release of GHB20. 

Q: When choosing an army for a Pitched Battle, what 
publications can I use without my opponent’s permission?
A: You can use the warscrolls for units with a Pitched 
Battle profile listed in the General’s Handbook 2020
(excluding those listed in the Legends Pitched Battle 
Profiles section) and the warscrolls for units with a 
Pitched Battle profile in a publication that has a release 
date of August 2020 or later.
In addition, when choosing your army, you can use rules 
from any of the following publications and any that have 
a release date of August 2020 or later:
• Soul Wars: Forbidden Power

 

The RaW is pretty clear that all the rules in Forbidden power should be legal. In addition, both malign sorcery and monstrous arcanum specify which parts are legal/illegal in brackets, while forbidden power has no such qualifiers.

 

Regardless of GW's intention, the rules are written in a way that is not ambiguous in this scenario.

 

Edit: werent the ghb 2019 rules for those 2 merc companies literally copy/pasted from forbidden power anyway?

Edited October 11, 2020 by Ganigumo

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Ganigumo I think you'll struggle to find an event that will use merc rules, because the original ones did get updated by ghb19. I agree that 2 are in forbidden power, and it looks like it's a possibility, especially FEC, as the archregent is a double caster, who can summon 20 ghouls. But you'd lose the CP on turn 1.

[Scythian]

The Thunderstompers

Tribe: Stomper

General: Warstomper “Thorgar Thunderstomper, Terror of the North” With Ironweld Cestus and Monsrously Tough

Warstomper “Grundar Groundbreaker”

Warstomper “Erruk Earthshaker” 

Battleline: 3

1 unit of 3 Mancrushers “The Thunderstompers”

1 extra command point

........because sometimes, you just want to play Godzilla.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Scythian
Omitted item

[gianmh]

Has it been confirmed no bone grinder in the SoB?

[Nezzhil]

1 minute ago, gianmh said:

Has it been confirmed no bone grinder in the SoB?

ForgeWorld update the warscrolls two or three weeks after the release of the battletome. Be patient.

[Nezgor]

On 10/10/2020 at 14:06, Tikhunt said:

No sé si esto se ha publicado, pero aquí hay una comparación de tamaño 

The kings of war giant is the same size in height as the mega gargant.
The conversion with spare parts I see very easy and for only € 40 / € 60 more.

[C0deb1ue]

A bit of a worst case scenario for me as the models are incredible but the rules are just so meh. Saved me an awful lot of money Mind you!
 

Can’t believe how much they are charging...

Edited October 11, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[Beliman]

5 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The RaW is pretty clear that all the rules in Forbidden power should be legal. In addition, both malign sorcery and monstrous arcanum specify which parts are legal/illegal in brackets, while forbidden power has no such qualifiers.

100% agree with that