The World Tree Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Kurrilino said: My 2 cents if you are interested and this is only my opinion. DP and Belakor are useless as it gets. Especially Belakor with his random roll 1 time per game ability. We are talking 450 points here. Belakor is about as far from useless as I can imagine. He's one of the best units in the book. A 2 cast wizard, 4+ ethereal save, olid combat, a spell that causes -1 to wound with good range, great movement. And then it gets the Dark Master ability which is utterly incredible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
begleysm Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) Thanks @Kurrilino thanks for your response. 9 hours ago, Kurrilino said: DP and Belakor are useless as it gets. Especially Belakor with his random roll 1 time per game ability. We are talking 450 points here. For any reason Despoiler are played more efficient without their "core pieces" The only reason to play Despoilers is the Diabolic Mantle. Why do you not like the DP & Be'Lakor. It seems like the theorycrafters in this thread like them and there has been at least 1 Battle Report in this thread talking about how great the DP did. Particularly the Bloodslick Grounds CA. I understand that games are often decided in the first couple turns so Be'Lakor's ability seems pretty good. Be'Lakor also provides 2 dispels. 9 hours ago, Kurrilino said: You also invested in Ruinbringer without maximizing the return for the investment. I actually have the other Batallion (Godsword Champions of Ruin) that lets the hero (Chaos Lord on Karkadrak) fight twice. I considered Ruinbringer, but since folks of complained a bit about the knights and fawned over the Chaos Lord on Karkadrak I decided to go that route. 9 hours ago, Kurrilino said: As example we could get 10 Knights and a Chaos Lord who has by far the best command ability. Charging 10 Lances Knights with "Knights of Chaos" and "Spurred by the Gods" means 40 attacks -2 rend and max 80 wounds plus charging mortal wounds. Now the Sorcerer with reroll hits and wounds says "Hi" This combo does seem nice and the Chaos Lord does have a great ability but I'm concerned about a Chaos Lord & Chaos Sorcerer Lord hampering the mobility of Knights. 9 hours ago, Kurrilino said: And while we are Nurgle, why not bringing the Harbinger and Lord of Flies to make the warriors really annoying but hey we have command points to spend. Harbinger seems nice for sure (but the Warriors already have a 5+ MW FNP from their shields & hopefully a 6+ W/MW FNP from the Warshrine). I'm not to smart on the various units but I think you mean Lord of Blights with the Plague of Flies Command Ability? It seems ok too but, since I only have 15 Warriors the effect is only a -1 to hit from shooting (instead of -2 hit from shooting & -1 to hit from melee). Lord of Blights seems more suitable for a 40 block of Marauders. Again, thanks for your thoughts and I've never played a game of AoS so I'm the ultimate Armchair Quarterback Edited January 25, 2020 by begleysm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmoon Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 10 hours ago, Kurrilino said: DP and Belakor are useless as it gets. Especially Belakor with his random roll 1 time per game ability. We are talking 450 points here. Are you kidding? Belakor is the best unit in the whole book. How can you think he isn't, much less completely useless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitGas Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 The only bad thing about Be'lakor is that his beautiful model is in finecast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Bloodmoon said: Are you kidding? Belakor is the best unit in the whole book. How can you think he isn't, much less completely useless? Because all the spells are incredible high to cast and as soon as you meet an army who can temper with your magic he is 400+ points of useless. Beside that his ability is once per game and i stay away from units with once per game abilities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 4 hours ago, begleysm said: Thanks @Kurrilino thanks for your response. Why do you not like the DP & Be'Lakor. It seems like the theorycrafters in this thread like them and there has been at least 1 Battle Report in this thread talking about how great the DP did. Particularly the Bloodslick Grounds CA. I understand that games are often decided in the first couple turns so Be'Lakor's ability seems pretty good. Be'Lakor also provides 2 dispels. That was 400 years ago. The real game starts at round 3. Especially with moving objectives or objectives that gain VP every round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Kurrilino said: Because all the spells are incredible high to cast and as soon as you meet an army who can temper with your magic he is 400+ points of useless. Beside that his ability is once per game and i stay away from units with once per game abilities I agree - once a game abilities are usually worthless - but Be’lakors ability makes the most efficient enemy unit worthless for a whole turn (if used correctly). That is 1/5 of the game so in the right situation is worth a couple of hundred points on average in itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmoon Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Be'lakor is 240 points, not 400. And its insane to me how you cant see the value of shutting down the opponents most valuable unit for 1/5th of the game. That ability alone can win you the game when they cannot make a critical move or charge, or cant shoot down a unit that they need to win. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gistradagis Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 26 minutes ago, NJohansson said: I agree - once a game abilities are usually worthless - but Be’lakors ability makes the most efficient enemy unit worthless for a whole turn (if used correctly). That is 1/5 of the game so in the right situation is worth a couple of hundred points on average in itself. Not even that. If the opponent somehow gets the double turn, the ability stays, affecting the opponent's key piece for 2/5s of the game and helping you survive the double turn. I honestly don't see how Be'Lakor is anything other than great, and practically a must-have. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whispersofblood Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Yeah I have to agree Be'Lakor is a great piece, especially in a magicy, avoidance build that is probably the main way to play with S2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bloodmoon said: Be'lakor is 240 points, not 400. And its insane to me how you cant see the value of shutting down the opponents most valuable unit for 1/5th of the game. That ability alone can win you the game when they cannot make a critical move or charge, or cant shoot down a unit that they need to win. Well the opponent usually rolls a 5 or 6 when you need the 1-4. This alone is a liability. DP and Belakor are 400+ points But i am a weirdo anyways, i played Everchosen without Everchosen for years. Not it's the time to play Despoilers without Despoilers. StD are in the weird place like Nighthaunt. They will play better when not StD Edited January 26, 2020 by Kurrilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 7 hours ago, Gistradagis said: Not even that. If the opponent somehow gets the double turn, the ability stays, affecting the opponent's key piece for 2/5s of the game and helping you survive the double turn. I honestly don't see how Be'Lakor is anything other than great, and practically a must-have. I hear a lot IF and When's. This is how lists break apart. The whole book is like that and is considered weak because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kurrilino said: I hear a lot IF and When's. This is how lists break apart. The whole book is like that and is considered weak because of it. It’s a game with dice - everything can happen but statistically 5+,5+ and 5+ means a failure. The book is not weak - it is a middle of the pack book with some great choices and a lot of point inefficient ones. You can build competitive lists - just the majority of those are without chaos warriors, which Seems to irritate a lot of people since chaos warriors seems to be the main reason why they love the faction. Marauders, Be’lakor, Gaunt summoners, Exalted Sorcerers are very good for their point choices (just to name a few). Warriors and chariots are not (although not saying they can’t be played or made to work). Edited January 26, 2020 by NJohansson 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, NJohansson said: The book is not weak - it is a middle of the pack book with some great choices and a lot of point inefficient ones. I mostly see two main reasons why S2D is suffering: pretty much every unit (Except Marauders & Archaon) costs 30% too much. Too much reliance on getting spells off with little to no support to do so combined with very short ranges) if they followed up with a big points drop soon(ish) the book will be fine. edit: the Price for normal sorcerers seems fine at first, but you have to count in that you have to take at least two since the army relies heavily on them. So the price should be reduced a little. (Especially since getting spells off is hard) Edited January 26, 2020 by JackStreicher Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeymajq Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) As someone who only has chaos warriors and knights... ouch I love the Knights though. Except when a single unit of tzaangor enlightened deleted them in one go once ,haha... I refuse to get the ugly as balls maraudermodels. I might wait for the bigbox of Spire tyrants and get some 25mm bases. I've looked through the entire aos range and as far as I can see it's either bloof reavers or kairic acolytes that fits the bill. But they'll look very cramped on 25mm bases Edited January 26, 2020 by Mikeymajq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, JackStreicher said: I mostly see two main reasons why S2D is suffering: pretty much every unit (Except Marauders & Archaon) costs 30% too much. Too much reliance on getting spells off with little to no support to do so combined with very short ranges) if they followed up with a big points drop soon(ish) the book will be fine. edit: the Price for normal sorcerers seems fine at first, but you have to count in that you have to take at least two since the army relies heavily on them. So the price should be reduced a little. (Especially since getting spells off is hard) Agreed. It is an odd army in that the synergies are priced in (good design choice in a vacuum) but are mostly unreliable to source. I would even argue Archaon is slightly too expensive. Not egregiously, though. Marauders are perfectly priced. Slaves just struggle to kill things. The thing that irritates me are Chaos Knights hitting on 4+ (criminal) and Chaos Warriors having no rend on their normal attacks (understandable, somewhat, but annoying). Edited January 26, 2020 by The World Tree 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Mikeymajq said: As someone who only has chaos warriors and knights... ouch I love the Knights though. Except when a single unit of tzaangor enlightened deleted them in one go once ,haha... I refuse to get the ugly as balls maraudermodels. I might wait for the bigbox of Spire tyrants and get some 25mm bases. I've looked through the entire aos range and as far as I can see it's either bloof reavers or kairic acolytes that fits the bill. But they'll look very cramped on 25mm bases Just use Bloodreavers and don‘t paint them in Khorne colors (+rebasing) Images 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeymajq Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 But those are on 32mm in the pictures, right? They do look good with black helmets and sheilds though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturmorn Carvilli Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 1 hour ago, The World Tree said: Agreed. It is an odd army in that the synergies are priced in (good design choice in a vacuum) but are mostly unreliable to source. I would even argue Archaon is slightly too expensive. Not egregiously, though. Marauders are perfectly priced. Slaves just struggle to kill things. The thing that irritates me are Chaos Knights hitting on 4+ (criminal) and Chaos Warriors having no rend on their normal attacks (understandable, somewhat, but annoying). I also agree. I run a Warrior and Knight heavy army, and every game I feel it isn't up to me to win but down to my opponent losing. The army feels so passive most of the time being tough shift but only spiking in damage when the right spell/buff gets on the right unit getting into the right fight. Even then, good Saves on enemy units can easily halve that damage. I can usually pull off extremely good damage (16-20, Rend 0/-1) wounds) off 1 or 2 times of game, and I'm sure when I do it probably feels game breaking to my opponent. However, they probably don't realize the resources, effort and straight up luck to get all that working in my favor. Most of the time, I am getting 7-8, no Rend wounds out of my units. Which translates into 3-5 damage after Saves. Not particularly impressive for 300+pt units. Quick note: Cursed Lances and Flails are +4 to hit, +3 to wound, Ensorcelled Weapons are +3 to hit/wound. So really it is only the lances that suffer, and I guess, the Cursed Flail but that weapon doesn't see like a good value to me so I don't bother with it. It is too variable with nothing special for damage. Kinda like the army overall. My only concern is any buffing of a good portion of Slaves to Darkness is that it has them pull ahead of their Stormcast Eternal counterparts (which I have to guess are also considered underpowered). I don't think anyone in my area plays them, but I would be interested in seeing how my army stacks up against them. I imagine we be in for an ol' fashion slap fight if the Stormcast player did build close to a mirror match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charleston Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 @Kurrilino StD Spells are quite Powerfull and set to this level because of balance reasons with Cultist-Legions. Belakor is an amazing Spellcaster and a good monster all around, especially as he is able to get a legion keyword. While the book has several things that allow critique I would see the main problem rather in Legions beeing too tied to units while a generic legion is missing and also some weird wordings around the book as well as the lack of high damage units. @JackStreicher An amazing Conversion! May I ask from what Kit the actual Shields are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Mikeymajq said: But those are on 32mm in the pictures, right? They do look good with black helmets and sheilds though Nope 25mm bases =} 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmoon Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) It might just be because of my preferred subfaction (Host of the Everchosen) but I've never had the problems others have had with killing models. In fact my issue has always been I'm too heavy into killing, and my only loss as of now has been to Tzeentch board control as I simply couldn't compete with 300+ horrors that sat on every obj. all of my units kill most things I send them at; Knights will average 16 damage on a 4+ save unit which is almost always enough (when they actually get to swing, I tend to use them to not let my Chaos Lord get killed) he averages only 15 damage, but in reality he often does 10 just with his axe(rune blade to give it -3 rend makes it kill most things, and even after that he has the rest of his attacks). And thats all with only guaranteed buffs (rr1s to hit and wound, +1 to wound from Archaon) and is very hard to kill with his 3+ save and d3 healing every turn. And Archaon obviously kills anything he touches and almost never dies with full reroll saves (again guaranteed) If we add in Daemonic Power from the sorc which isnt very hard to get off honestly, one of the units is pumped up even further. regardless, I think you can defiantly kill very effectively as StD if you spec for it. EDIT: I also think that once the Mindstealer comes out StD armies will become much better; effectively old Slaanesh fight last for 100pts is very very good and will help us lock down a dangerous unit and dogpile it. Edited January 26, 2020 by Bloodmoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Bloodmoon said: It might just be because of my preferred subfaction (Host of the Everchosen) but I've never had the problems others have had with killing models. In fact my issue has always been I'm too heavy into killing, and my only loss as of now has been to Tzeentch board control as I simply couldn't compete with 300+ horrors that sat on every obj. all of my units kill most things I send them at; Knights will average 16 damage on a 4+ save unit which is almost always enough (when they actually get to swing, I tend to use them to not let my Chaos Lord get killed) he averages only 15 damage, but in reality he often does 10 just with his axe(rune blade to give it -3 rend makes it kill most things, and even after that he has the rest of his attacks). And thats all with only guaranteed buffs (rr1s to hit and wound, +1 to wound from Archaon) and is very hard to kill with his 3+ save and d3 healing every turn. And Archaon obviously kills anything he touches and almost never dies with full reroll saves (again guaranteed) If we add in Daemonic Power from the sorc which isnt very hard to get off honestly, one of the units is pumped up even further. regardless, I think you can defiantly kill very effectively as StD if you spec for it. EDIT: I also think that once the Mindstealer comes out StD armies will become much better; effectively old Slaanesh fight last for 100pts is very very good and will help us lock down a dangerous unit and dogpile it. Would you like to share your standard setup, please? Just assembling my first unit of Varanguard I´m heavily considering a mounted force of Knights and Varanguard now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmoon Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness- Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (First Circle)LeadersArchaon the Everchosen (800)- General- Aura of Chaos: Khorne- Spell: Whispers of ChaosBe'Lakor (240)- Spell: Mask of DarknessChaos Sorcerer Lord (110)- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle- Spell: Binding DamnationChaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)- Artefact: Rune Blade- Mark of Chaos: KhorneBattleline5 x Chaos Warriors (100)- Hand Weapon & Shield40 x Chaos Marauders (300)- Flails5 x Chaos Knights (180)- Ensorcelled WeaponsTotal: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 107 This is my standard build. Its not optimzied at all, just what I could build out of the models I have (or am getting) however its gone well so far. if I were going to run Varanguard I would run this; Allegiance: ChaosLeadersArchaon the Everchosen (800)- GeneralChaos Lord (110)- Reaperblade & Daemonbound SteelChaos Sorcerer Lord (110)Battleline40 x Chaos Marauders (300)- FlailsUnits3 x Varanguard (300)- 3x Fellspears- Mark of Chaos: Khorne3 x Varanguard (300)- 3x Fellspears- Mark of Chaos: KhorneTotal: 1920 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 101 Always take 6th circle for Varanguard, it far outweighs the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 20 hours ago, NJohansson said: It’s a game with dice - everything can happen but statistically 5+,5+ and 5+ means a failure. The book is not weak - it is a middle of the pack book with some great choices and a lot of point inefficient ones. You can build competitive lists - just the majority of those are without chaos warriors, which Seems to irritate a lot of people since chaos warriors seems to be the main reason why they love the faction. I'm not saying you can't play this army. It's just that all other armies can do what StD can do and even better for 1/3 cheaper. And that makes the book weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.