Male and female representation in GW models

[dekay]

3 minutes ago, Aryann said:

How about not take it literally? It's a metaphor. Trying to explain replacing is wrong no matter who is being replaced. Last mention, promise - I'd rather they killed a white male superhero and started a BRAND NEW ONE minority hero than to replace him with 90% same powers but different skin color/sex. That's lazy, unfair and bad taste. Be original. Everything they can come up with is black Spider-man, Spider-Women and Noir Spider-man? Groundschool kid would have performed better if asked to create a new hero... 

I really don't wan't to drag this off topic, but luckily, I think I found a relevant example:

Coming up with a brand new character is, of course, fine, but it requires estabilishing a new character from scratch. Your audience doesn't know anything about this character. Pulling a Dread Pirete Roberts, and passing the idenitity of an estabilished character gives te audience something recognisable. Yeah, it's not a spiderman we know, but we know what spiderman is about. This new character is a different person, yes, but we know how he works. But, putting him into a new context refreshes the story possibilities! He has new way of thinking, new side character cast, and we wonder 'how this one will interact with all this'. Changing the scenery or changing something about the character opens new possibilities, while remaining familiar. For example,  a kid now has spiderman's powers and responsibilities, how will he fare compared to previous, more experienced incarnation of the character? Or let's place the character in the Noir setting, what changes?

Now, to said relevant example, let's talk Gotrek. Gotrek was deeply rooted in the Old World. He also, a bit ambiguously but still, died there. And now we have new novels with Gotrek in Mortal Realms. Could GW have created a new dwarf character for their AoS books. Sure. But we got Gotrek. It's not the same Gotrek we know - everything around him changed and how he's pretty much defined by his 'this new world is dumb, fyreslayers are posers, and what even is a duardin' attitude. And it's only possible because they've taken some elements from the old books and changed others. Creating new character from scratch wouldn'tve been bad by definition, but it would be impossible to achieve what is currently happening in the tale of Gotrek.

If, in some parallell universe, Old World never ended, we'd still be getting books about Gotrek in the Old World and in one of them Gotrek died only to be replaced by his long lost niece? That would be interesting as well, and would open avenues original Gotrek didn't have. 'how can a young girl be a chosen of grimnir?' asks some rando. And she installs axe of grimnir in his face because that's what slayers do when someone makes them angry, while Felix tries to calm her down. Yeah it's not overly ambitious scene, but it's a scene that would've been impossible if Gotrek hasn't ben replaced by his niece. And if Gotrek's niece just started her own story alongside Gotrek books, without replacing him, it would be needed to fully contextualise her - no familiar elements like chosen of Grimnir, the axe or Felix to help us.

Plus, all the people complaining that she's too similar to Gotrek anyway and why do we even need two series of Slayer books.

This came out way less coherent than I intended it to, sorry, but in short: I believe that changing some aspects of the story/character/setting/whatever has its own set of interesting advantages over starting a new one from scratch.

1 minute ago, Icegoat said:

It's very clear GW will never bother to update the human side of cities of sigmar. Thusly the chance of us ever getting good human female representatives that fight for order and aren't storm marines is basically zero. And that's what's most disappointing. We guys get lots of human male models and we get big monsters and big trolls or big trees but making an actual order female human seems to be something GW have no interest in doing. Same in 40k with the imperial guard. 

I've read a lot of books that have had female imperial guardsman and freeguild women in them

I don't actually think GW will ever update the old empire with mixed units. 

Do you really need to write this in every single thread where Cities are mentioned? ; )

We don't know that. Genestealer Cults have been updated after nearly 20 years of silence. Squats started to show up again. But yes, regular human troopers in AoS is where GW draws the line ; )

3 minutes ago, Veles said:

As I close the door of the car...

Please stop with this SJW topics. All this “gender natural”, “female representation”, president insulting ******... this is a war gaming forum for the product that has been around for more than 25 years. If the setting doesn’t fit your vision of universe go find a new one where you will be happy. Stop trying to change wargaming (might be a surprise for some but it is predominantly  male hobby based on the reenacting of real battles where males were smashing each other into bloody pulp). Leave the hobby the way it is. It is perfectly good. 

I don't thing anyone mentioned 'gender natural' or insulted anyone's president in this thread. You'll find, if you don't like this one, there are many other threads you might enjoy ; )

[passtheKhorneplease]

No one is stealing your characters from you.  You didn't create them, you don't have a right to them so that is a ridiculous argument.  Also stealing 10 bucks from a homeless man is a whole different thing than stealing 10 bucks from Bill Gates.  I am not saying that women aren't playing these games because there are no female characters, but representation matters, if it didn't these threads wouldn't get as heated as they do.

[Whitefang]

I obviously want more female models

But I dislike sce

and I especially dislike golden sce 

And I utterly HATE literally-who golden sce

so when they release golden sce literally-who men and women

I just hate them

 

[zilberfrid]

I agree that GW should not replace an existing male named character with the same character in the same place, just female. (I wouldn't have any issues with Tzeenchian or Slaaneshi characters switching sexes every so often though).

Just like I am exceedingly disappointed that the only order human ever made for AoS was reforged into a Stormcast (I really like the Excelsior Warpriest).

As for females fighting: In the olderst fighting manual we have, there is a female representation in about a third of the pages (the i:33 manuscript). Females do sometimes need a bit of conversion of the techniques (i:33 and classic rapier need almost no conversion, longsword a bit more, montante needed very specific weapon length) to account for a different hip width and presence of ****** (in conjunction with narrower shoulders). Rotating the hips in a thrust gives them more reach for that part of the movement, and because it is powered by really strong muscles, when practiced, it generates a lot of force. Individual builds are still more important than general statements though, and the international rapier seminar there was about a 50/50 split. This was with historic, 1.1-1.4 kg rapiers, not olymic foils, sabers or epees, and I still consider historic rapier fencing to be one of the heavier fencing styles. 

I have a bit of experience with armour, and making outfits through LARP, and there are a few differences between male and female full plate armours, but they are more in the wider shape of hips and shallower shoulders. Just like I can't just give my tailored chain mail to a man with 10 cm broader shoulders and half a head shorter, chain mail should be fitted for a female to be comfortable, and will obviously need different adjustments than me. Gambesons are also highly tailored, and can't be used as effectively if you don't. But, when 10 kg of chain mail is weighing down on someone, there is just a hint of the original body shape left.

Realistic armours being narrow in the waist has to do with range of morion rather than fashion, though medieval fashion often followed the appearance of armours (armours were, of course, a status symbol as well as a functional piece of military kit). Armours also followed fashion of the period to a degree, so it isn't that easy to distinguish every result from the situation that led to it.

[Beastmaster]

16 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

There are a couple of reasons I could see being true, with differing amounts of credit to GW.

The please don't sue us reason. They already had a lot of similarities to Alien. Just another change to make it less legally actionable. It's pretty lazy, but a fair amount of GW stuff follows the "throw it all at the wall and see what sticks".

The more thought out reason. Genestealers share a lot with alien, but one thing they have that is very different is the cult part. There is a very creepy Manson or Jones town vibe to GSC. The idea of people being subverted to a cause. They may have decided that it worked better as a creepy faux paternal figure than as a mother style one. Particularly with the deep veins of subverted religion, the disapproving father.

Or, maybe, the Dark Mother who murders her children (think Skyrim) is still too much of a cultural taboo to even be considered in a grimdark world...

[passtheKhorneplease]

Also I am a proud social justice warrior.  Look at that term.

Social: A group of people

Justice:  Fairness and right behavior

Warrior:  A fighter

What is wrong with wanting my hobby to be something my daughters can engage in a way that makes them feel as equal to the men that play it.  I know arguing online solves very little, but it is hard to hear people get so bent out of shape because might have to share.

[Still-young]

23 minutes ago, Veles said:

As I close the door of the car...

Please stop with this SJW topics. All this “gender natural”, “female representation”, president insulting ******... this is a war gaming forum for the product that has been around for more than 25 years. If the setting doesn’t fit your vision of universe go find a new one where you will be happy. Stop trying to change wargaming (might be a surprise for some but it is predominantly  male hobby based on the reenacting of real battles where males were smashing each other into bloody pulp). Leave the hobby the way it is. It is perfectly good. 

 

So... you haven’t read the thread then? 

Just because it’s been predominantly a male hobby in the past, doesn’t mean it should stay that way. If you don’t like it changing, go find a new one where you will be happy. 

[Thiagoma]

I would love for more female models.

 

Last year i was bored and decided to convert all Wanderers heroes as females and part of the challenge was using spare models and bits. Oh boy i had trouble finding bodies to convert, but i loved the results (then all models were removed from the game lol).

 

This year i assembled Shadow Warriors and loved the kit! Take away the magic bows and you can mix the girls really well with the boys.  I really hope that new elves comes with a proportion like Idoneth Thralls/Reavers with some ladies mixed in the unit. Makes it so full of variety!

 

The point i disagree with some is the boob plate.  No need for bikini armor (we got DoK on that field) , but for heavy armor, the boob plate makes it easier to id a girl in the middle of the troops, even if she uses a helmet. Doesnt have to be exagereted or sexualized, just there for easy id.

What i disliked about the new Sisters of Battle is that their faces are ugly. I LOVE the artwork used on the promos, with pretty face , heavy armor and a lot of attitude but the models... meh. I dont really get GW problem with sculpting women faces, it is not really their strongest skill.

 

[dirkdragonslayer]

4 hours ago, dekay said:

Sense is relative. With things like fishpeople on giant sharks flying above dry land and magically resurrected superhumans in huge gold plate and such, bar for 'sense' is remarkably low in AoS, especially if we understand it as 'historical accrucacy', the favourite term of people liking to claim that women were invented in XX century.

Army of half naked warior priestesses with knives makes sense in AoS, but I can't see them fare particularily well on medieval battlefield. Especially without magic. Because through magic, all the craziness is possible, and as long as authors put some effort into explaining how it works, everything can make sense. Even flying sharks.

But putting those things aside - anyone who has ever tried to kitbash multiple women will confirm - we need more female models. Because right now, despite GW getting way better in this departament in recent years, the choice is terrible. Choice for *human* women is even worse and like 90% of it comes from warcry, that came out just a few months back. I'd like more diversity, and I mean it in 'diversity in availible plastic parts' way before anyone's hurt feelings descend upon me for using a forbidden word.

Elves are mostly set for now and I don't expect future aelf armies to be different. Also, let daugfhters of khaine serve as an example - if they managed to squeeze men into the faction that's remarkably sexist in lore, there should be no problem with finding the place for women in the others.

Stormcast are getting there, and if they contine in the same direction, problem will solve itself. Cool.

Duardin are lacking. The novels clearly mention female Kharadron fighters and, really, the only thing there's different about them is that their heavy pressurised suits covering the entire body have beardless masks. Because there would be no way to tell otherwise. So, just put some masks with female faces on them in future boxes and we're cool (more or less how it was done with Tau in 40k. most of their infantry wears armour and helmets anyway, but some of the helmetless heads are female. Which you'll know only if you have some knowlege in Tau gender characteristics :D)

Fyreslayers - I honestly don't know enough about their fluff to know if they currently admit women in their ranks or not, but if they hypotethically would - less beard, even more crazy hair, design wise it's not a problem, It could probably be squeezed as some optional parts into a unit box. Different face, different torso front, rest equally axe-y and bodybuild-y. Doable. And, honestly, fun and original, we don't see many dwarf berserker women around.

Order Humans - we're at legacy models only now, so no wonder the situation is dire. If new models ver come, there better be women in there.  Both as characters and among the regular units. There's no reason for them not to.  Does that make sense, historical accuracy wise? There's an answer to that question, and it's 'who the hell cares?' They're fighting demons who want to replace your skin with concept of trauma, every single human in history would fare equally bad against it. But these humans are supported by equipment made from magical materials, magic, and faith that actually works wonders. They'll manage, despite being frail m'lady females and not strong manly men. Of course, those female models could've been grizzled veterans and exceptional fighters as well, and if they were I'd take some oy in reading all those hurt comments from people for whom some sisters of battle being old was a personal attack ; )

So, that was order.

Death... honestly, death is dong great recently. Nighthaunt have some of the best designed women in the game imo. Who would claim that Lady Olynder or the Briar Queen look bad. Plus, we even got a female ghoul, who looks creepy enough and I wouldn't mind more of those if basic ghoul resculpt ever comes. Hunger doesn't discriminate by gender.

Destruction: Troggoth Hag mentioned here is a great example of how this can be done right. It would be cool to see more of those female mosnter archetypes show up in game. All the Baba Yaga's, Grendel's Mothers and such. So much potential here. Some Ogre women wouldn't hurt as well, by the way.

Chaos: Warcry has done some great service to them in that departament. So did Godsworn Hunt. I wouldn't mind seeing warrior women similar to Jagathra in future marauder resculp. Same with Kairic Acolytes - woman from Eyes of the Nine is a great example of how it could be done. Some female demons of gods other than Slaanesh would be nice to see - Valkia was a great concept, I'm curious what they could do with, say, an old nurgle'y witch. Also, it would be cool, if new Warriors and Knights come in multipart eventually, to have some helmetless heads female. Like a dark mirror of Stormcast.

 

In general, I see progress and I'm happy GW is ignoring all the reeeee'ing caused by it and continues in its set direction. And thanks to that, some of us get extra fun with reading how making fanatical-chainsaw-repentants less sexy, and giving their leader wrinkles is the end of western civilisation. ; )

EDIT:

Also, what @JPjr said. 

 

I didn’t know that Duardin women wore different kinds of Gas Masks in the KO. I was assuming it was just a Final Fantasy 14 kind of thing, where all the Dwarf masks look like beards regardless of their gender, and you can’t tell until they talk. 

[dekay]

3 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

I didn’t know that Duardin women wore different kinds of Gas Masks in the KO. I was assuming it was just a Final Fantasy 14 kind of thing, where all the Dwarf masks look like beards regardless of their gender, and you can’t tell until they talk. 

I remember beardless masks being mentioned in one of the novels. Someone else would have to help with reminding which one was it, though ; )

[Chikout]

To get the topic back to gw, I think for the most part gw is doing ok with its gender balance these days. The obvious exceptions are the freeguild and the imperial guard in 40k. 

If gw can produce a few kits that redress that balance then they will be in a pretty good place going forward. 

One of the great things about gw moving from the old world to AOS was the freedom to create a new setting free from the historical baggage of the old world. 

 

[Veles]

7 minutes ago, Still-young said:

So... you haven’t read the thread then? 

Just because it’s been predominantly a male hobby in the past, doesn’t mean it should stay that way. If you don’t like it changing, go find a new one where you will be happy. 

I read enough to see the agenda behind the topic... and yes, it should stay predominantly male and it will be predominantly male in the future, no matter how much some people will try to pretend otherwise. Last time I visited Adepticon the ratio of male to female was 10 to 1...

I have nothing against females in the hobby, in fact, I alway highly  encourage this. The issue I have is topics like this...  

As for “gender neutral” - reed the third post in this topic. I confess,  insults of president was in another topic but no one reacted to it and my reaction was reprimanded by the author of this topic...  

This hobby makes me plenty happy and I’ve been involved in it since late nineties. I am just tired of SJW attempts at trying to influence everything. 

 

[zilberfrid]

3 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

I would love for more female models.

 

Last year i was bored and decided to convert all Wanderers heroes as females and part of the challenge was using spare models and bits. Oh boy i had trouble finding bodies to convert, but i loved the results (then all models were removed from the game lol).

 

This year i assembled Shadow Warriors and loved the kit! Take away the magic bows and you can mix the girls really well with the boys.  I really hope that new elves comes with a proportion like Idoneth Thralls/Reavers with some ladies mixed in the unit. Makes it so full of variety!

 

The point i disagree with some is the boob plate.  No need for bikini armor (we got DoK on that field) , but for heavy armor, the boob plate makes it easier to id a girl in the middle of the troops, even if she uses a helmet. Doesnt have to be exagereted or sexualized, just there for easy id.

What i disliked about the new Sisters of Battle is that their faces are ugly. I LOVE the artwork used on the promos, with pretty face , heavy armor and a lot of attitude but the models... meh. I dont really get GW problem with sculpting women faces, it is not really their strongest skill.

A female in armour is distinguishable from a male, but you are correct that a bit of shaping or detail that isn't entirely neccessary for function could help accentuate. There are also obvious codpieces and helmets with modeled facial hair.

I also agree that GW isn't stellar at designing female faces. Somehow they get elves quite well (though there is very much similarity), but others are generally a bit off.

[Nordrim]

As long as we get female ogres.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Nordrim

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, Veles said:

I read enough to see the agenda behind the topic... and yes, it should stay predominantly male and it will be predominantly male in the future, no matter how much some people will try to pretend otherwise. Last time I visited Adepticon the ratio of male to female was 10 to 1...

I have nothing against females in the hobby, in fact, I alway highly  encourage this. The issue I have is topics like this...  

As for “gender neutral” - reed the third post in this topic. I confess,  insults of president was in another topic but no one reacted to it and my reaction was reprimanded by the author of this topic...  

This hobby makes me plenty happy and I’ve been involved in it since late nineties. I am just tired of SJW attempts at trying to influence everything. 

If you use a term to disparage someone, it's an insult. This as true in the first reply to the topic, as it is in later replies. And yes, the other side of the fence has also done this. I have also asked them to be civil.

Both should just be adults and speak like them.

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 minutes ago, Veles said:

I read enough to see the agenda behind the topic... and yes, it should stay predominantly male and it will be predominantly male in the future, no matter how much some people will try to pretend otherwise. Last time I visited Adepticon the ratio of male to female was 10 to 1...

 

Have you considered that part of the reason for that may well be that they don't feel welcome. I don't know the statistics for AoS/40k but for magic the gathering the hobby is 62% male, 38% female. That is very much not what you see in large events or tournaments.

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, Nordrim said:

In mt home country (Finland) less than 5 percent of our army is female.

Also as a sailor i have noticed that perhaps only 1 in every 30 sailors is female.

They might do same jobs as men but usually its not even 33-66 ratio when it comes to some of the more physical career option.

This is, of course, correct. It is also not really relevant.

You can't paint a picture where a society uses every resource to win, but then does not employ half its inhabitants.

Humans are not fighting to get a bit more land or oil, they are fighting not to be sacrificed to the dark gods, their souls stolen, eaten or to prevent being cleansed because they were in contact with chaos.

It's doesn't compare to the army composition in time of peace. Or even in time of war.

[dekay]

5 minutes ago, Veles said:

As for “gender neutral” - reed the third post in this topic. I confess,  insults of president was in another topic but no one reacted to it and my reaction was reprimanded by the author of this topic...  

oh, *neutral*. You wrote 'natural' before. 

Gender neutral is not an ideologically charged term, though, right? It's not really controversial.

As for the president thing - different thread, different people, would you kindly leave this out of here?

[zilberfrid]

4 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Have you considered that part of the reason for that may well be that they don't feel welcome. I don't know the statistics for AoS/40k but for magic the gathering the hobby is 62% male, 38% female. That is very much not what you see in large events or tournaments.

My ex has received quite a few pictures of male genitalia when she joined Warhammer WhatsApp groups. She thinks these men are just clumsy in dealing with women. I think at least some want to scare her off. And yes, there were multiple different sets of genitalia.

[Satyrical Sophist]

4 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

My ex has received quite a few pictures of male genitalia when she joined Warhammer WhatsApp groups. She thinks these men are just clumsy in dealing with women. I think at least some want to scare her off. And yes, there were multiple different sets of genitalia.

I... assume you mean different in different photos. I don't think if it's still a traditional ****** pic if there are multiple discrete genitals in there.

That is pretty darn sad. I just feel discouraged now.

[Walrustaco]

1 hour ago, Veles said:

As I close the door of the car...

Please stop with this SJW topics. All this “gender natural”, “female representation”, president insulting ******... this is a war gaming forum for the product that has been around for more than 25 years. If the setting doesn’t fit your vision of universe go find a new one where you will be happy. Stop trying to change wargaming (might be a surprise for some but it is predominantly  male hobby based on the reenacting of real battles where males were smashing each other into bloody pulp). Leave the hobby the way it is. It is perfectly good. 

 

What's the problem with insulting presidents?

[dekay]

1 minute ago, Walrustaco said:

What's the problem with insulting presidents?

We're trying to keep it civil in here, and some people like their presidents, plus it's not relevant to the subject of this thread. Apart from that, nothing, in my parts it's been basically a national pastime ever since democratic system had been implemented ; )

[zilberfrid]

Just now, Walrustaco said:

What's the problem with insulting presidents?

This is not a forum for discussing real-world politics.

5 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I... assume you mean different in different photos. I don't think if it's still a traditional ****** pic if there are multiple discrete genitals in there.

That is pretty darn sad. I just feel discouraged now.

It wasn't limited to a single picture. I started a Reddit thing with stuff to reply. I liked

"It may be 28mm, but it's not really heroic, is it?"

"I can't see detail, cut it off the base, put it in isopropyl for a few weeks and try again."

"This offer displeases Slaanesh, Slaanesh is into excess, not sparsity."

But that's a different and more serious topic, and I managed to convince her to report the worst offender after quite a while, who lost access to the store the group was associated with.

[Walrustaco]

1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

This is not a forum for discussing real-world politics.

Yeah but this goof brought up 'presidents' out of nowhere betwixt his laughable ranting against the evil 'SJWs'.

Instantly I thought "Ah, he's one of those."

[zilberfrid]

1 minute ago, Walrustaco said:

Yeah but this goof brought up 'presidents' out of nowhere betwixt his laughable ranting against the evil 'SJWs'.

Instantly I thought "Ah, he's one of those."

Still, I think asking someone politely to be polite will help the discussion more than try to widen the divide. If you do want to escalate an argument, take out the minifigs.

Even if you don't, we have rules for a reason: https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/bar-fight-at-warhammer-convention-enters-third-day/