Warhammer - The Old World

[Overread]

So far GW hasn't shown much for The Old World - a luke warm reception isn't surprising as right now we've got a few maps, a banner, a few concept sketches and a few name drops. Don't forget we are in year 5 of AoS and we still get Malarion name drops and yet haven't seen a single model. When GW hasn't got models or rules or design work to show off there isn't much to get excited about as yet. Right now the Old World is ticking over in the background - expect real marketing and real excitement to start rising when they've got actual models - so in perhaps 2-3 years. 

 

 

As for the whole AoS VS Old World I think the important thing is that we ALL put the start times behind us. They were a dark time for both AoS and Old World and it doesn't benefit anyone to get into a "who insulted who the most" fight. MOVE ON and MOVE FORWARD. Lets focus on the unity that wargames bring socially for us; in sharing photos of our models; painting, converting, alternative sculpts, games we play (granted that's a bit thin this last year). Focus on the good not on the bad because if we focus on the latter all well end up doing is fighting with each other over nothing. 

[Public Universal Duardin]

4 hours ago, Beliman said:

Is anyone a bit intimidated by The Old World "so called" Comunity? I just checked some forums and there is a lot of hostility towards anyone that enjoys AoS. I'm not saying: "I don't like AoS"  but "I hope AoS is retconned and everybody moves on as it never happened".

I really want to play The Old World (currently playing 6th edition from time to time), but I it's hard to be part of a toxic community.

There's a fair bit of grognards (and not the endearing kind) and Total War fanatics who have latched onto TOW together with toxic hostility towards AoS. Unsurprisingly, plenty of them also play 40K...

AoS has by far the most positive Warhammer community I've ever seen. Although unnecessary whinging is par for the course for any online community (and I cannot cast stones in glass houses), there's far less overt toxicity, hostility, gatekeeping or bigotry.

[Sarouan]

1 hour ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

There's a fair bit of grognards (and not the endearing kind) and Total War fanatics who have latched onto TOW together with toxic hostility towards AoS. Unsurprisingly, plenty of them also play 40K...

To be fair, the change was brutal at that time and a lot of players were very confused about what GW was trying to do with AoS. That turned into hostility fast in what was perceived as effectively killing their favorite game and universe.

Hardcore fantasy players from that time weren't really leaning into 40k (I still remember the rivality between these two communities, sometimes funny, sometimes more serious and way less funny). They were playing WFB because of a whole (not least is the fantasy setting and regimental battles), it's not just the competitive scene. A lot have moved to other game systems that were proposing them something similar...and that 9th Age fan project, too.

 

Honestly, most of the hostility nowadays comes from these veteran players who never forgave GW for the murder of WFB (words are harsh, but that's what they're feeling, I found). To be fair, they're a minority and most of the players have turned the page or calmed these feelings. New players tend not to act as extreme as well, since they didn't live the events at that time (and they didn't burn their armies in anger as well ).

That said, if you were still holding a grudge for that long and saw GW's reveal about the Old World project, it makes total sense to me to react that way - or, at the very least, show a very sarcastic sense of humor. As for myself...well, I still see the irony of bringing back the universe you killed before, especially when the nostalgy business is racking up so much money nowadays. A more cynical person would say that makes perfect sense for GW to sell us what they sold before, now that the original stuff has disappeared and they can sell it more expensively that way.

[ian0delond]

Anyone who think the Old World is going to be the new Fantasy Battle and replace AoS  is going to be very disappointed.

The game isn't WHFB 9th edition (it's in the name!). The development team is small, there is not going to have enough release to fill the void. Therefor their favorite faction is probably not going to be supported at launch so they won't support the game.

The only faction they revealed they were actually developing model for isn't the Empire, or lost Bretonnia or Tomb Kings, but KISLEV, it should enough set up the expectation of the game not being the WHFB they pray for.

Edited December 29, 2020 by ian0delond

[Sarouan]

1 hour ago, ian0delond said:

The only faction they revealed they were actually developing model for isn't the Empire, or lost Bretonnia or Tomb Kings, but KISLEV, it should enough seup the expectation of the game not being the WHFB they pray for.

Kislev is just the first they showed. The map we saw last article clearly put the emphasis that other known factions will be back, just not at the same timeline when the End Times came.

And that will certainly be the opportunity to revisit some concepts with higher fantasy than before, like Kislev with their female warriors wielding magical ice weapons.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sarouan

[Morglum StormBasha]

I think expectations of how much support The Old World will get need to be tempered. 
 

my minimum expectation is it will get the same level of support that Middle Earth gets (I think likely it will be more in reality) 

but that should mean 3 or more army books a year and redone special characters at least (mostly new given the new time period).

I think they’ll launch big with 2 new armies but after that I do think it won’t get the same level of models support as aos or 40K do.

[Baron Klatz]

Yeah I feel that's the dual purpose of showing off the Asur Sea Guard outposts this early. It both shows they will squeeze in non-humans in a timeframe that mostly focused on humans but also army sizes will be small enough in variety to what you can expect to protect isolated outposts across the sea as a standard across the board going up against a fledging united medieval kingdom, hidden fey and a divided empire.

Thus why it's at a timeframe so "limited" in resources compared to Wfb with a lack of gunpowder and mage colleges.

It keeps FW from biting off more than they can chew so they have less chances of cancelling or delaying sculpts like they have so many times in the past.

[amysrevenge]

Maybe I'm the Debbie Downer here, but I am expecting an initial release of two armies (Kislev and something Chaos-y but not simple Warriors or Marauders - something as different from those as Kislev is from Empire), each with 1-2 heroes and 2-4 units.  A single box game with one printed book with rules for the game and for both armies, slightly smaller in model count than the recent AoS starter sets.  And then light releases over several months for those two armies, maybe branch out to a third and fourth army within a year or two.

Edited December 30, 2020 by amysrevenge

[Kyriakin]

10 hours ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

There's a fair bit of grognards (and not the endearing kind) and Total War fanatics who have latched onto TOW together with toxic hostility towards AoS. Unsurprisingly, plenty of them also play 40K...

AoS has by far the most positive Warhammer community I've ever seen. Although unnecessary whinging is par for the course for any online community (and I cannot cast stones in glass houses), there's far less overt toxicity, hostility, gatekeeping or bigotry.

Hypotehetical situation.

Let's say that tomorrow GW suddenly released a press release saying that AoS is cancelled, with a view to returning to the Old World and square bases. The Mortal Realms were just a dream of Karl Franz, or whatever...

It was stated that AoS models would still be usable - albeit not ideal - on round bases, and they would remain within the rules for the next few years until Old World replacements were rolled out to replace them, and this eventually came to pass.

You don't think there would be small enclaves of embittered AoS players, who's lovingly collected, built, converted and painted Stormcast Eternal (Last Chance to Buy - as they don't belong in the Old World) armies are suddenly borderline unusable and the world they loved destroyed? Especially with the gleeful gloats of an occasional WHFB player ringing in their ears ("AoS was trash, so GW cancelled it, lol", etc.).

No doubt one of these scorned AoS players would do something stupid, such as, I don't know... burn their army. This would then provide perfect ammunition for WHFB players to say "See?! AoS players are all crazy and toxic!"

In situations like this, there are always bad actors on both sides. For the the side that are winning, these tend to take the form of smug, gloating gravedancers who can't stop reminding you that your Tomb Kings (etc.) sucked and nobody bought them, while the worst members of the losing side tend to bitterly lash out in a manner that is both disproportionate and sometimes not even towards the correct target (e.g. players of the new game, who don't even ever bad-mouth the one it replaced).

Aside from the issue of GW's resources being something of a zero-sum-game (i.e. any resources spent on your Game X is not being spent on my Game Y), the bitterness all just tribal BS.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Kyriakin

[Baron Klatz]

The old angry fans have that excuse and I don't think anyone is really blaming that minority. The worst portion is the toxic Total War players who have no reason to be mad but jump in anyway to earn points with the old crowd when they're not at war with the Total War history crowd.

I've lost count of how many times I got hit by them on reddit on warhammer subs where i'm explaining the lore to curious people and they jump in with "that's f-ing stupid lore".

I ask them "how? Can you explain why it's bad?"

80% of the time I get: "You'd know if you read the good Fantasy books!"

I reply: "I have. I've been in since 7th edition and read almost every book including buying the Hammer & Bolter short story collections and even the Age of Reckoning novel tie-ins.

I read them and still adore AoS novels from the Realmgate Wars onward. So can you explain in detail?"

I either get silence(as they have not read any books) or "Lol, you actually care that much about dumb toy soldiers?!"

They are the worst and the main reason the toxic levels are crazy high be it in warhammer tabletop forums or their own forums where they gloat at history fans for not having big trilogy games that get so much attention.

That's why I'm happy the trilogy is finally getting ready to wrap up so they can move on and the AoS strategy games coming out can bring in a less bitter crowd as well Old World actually pulling in people who enjoy tabletop and not just bad-mouthing people so that community can actually heal.

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Doko]

I really dont mind if the game is good or bad,lore etc.... I only know that my citys of sigmar army gonna get for sure any new model of humans,dwarfs and elfs and im happy only with that

[Kyriakin]

50 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

The old angry fans have that excuse. The worst portion is the toxic Total War players who have no reason to be mad but jump in anyway to earn points with the old crowd when they're not at war with the Total War history crowd.

As far as I can recall, I believe some amongst the TW history crowd were initially bitter that CA had "sold out" for making a fantasy-based game, rather than concentrating on their historical-based titles. Following the success of TW:Warhammer, I think the return shots were what pro wrestlers call "a receipt".

That said, I hope "30 Years of Total War" one day happens. I really want a pike-and-shot era TW game

Edited December 30, 2020 by Kyriakin

[Beliman]

5 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Hypotehetical situation.

Let's say that tomorrow GW suddenly released a press release saying that AoS is cancelled, with a view to returning to the Old World and square bases. The Mortal Realms were just a dream of Karl Franz, or whatever...

It was stated that AoS models would still be usable - albeit not ideal - on round bases, and they would remain within the rules for the next few years until Old World replacements were rolled out to replace them, and this eventually came to pass.

You don't think there would be small enclaves of embittered AoS players, who's lovingly collected, built, converted and painted Stormcast Eternal (Last Chance to Buy - as they don't belong in the Old World) armies are suddenly borderline unusable and the world they loved destroyed? Especially with the gleeful gloats of an occasional WHFB player ringing in their ears ("AoS was trash, so GW cancelled it, lol", etc.).

No doubt one of these scorned AoS players would do something stupid, such as, I don't know... burn their army. This would then provide perfect ammunition for WHFB players to say "See?! AoS players are all crazy and toxic!"

In situations like this, there are always bad actors on both sides. For the the side that are winning, these tend to take the form of smug, gloating gravedancers who can't stop reminding you that your Tomb Kings (etc.) sucked and nobody bought them, while the worst members of the losing side tend to bitterly lash out in a manner that is both disproportionate and sometimes not even towards the correct target (e.g. players of the new game, who don't even ever bad-mouth the one it replaced).

Aside from the issue of GW's resources being something of a zero-sum-game (i.e. any resources spent on your Game X is not being spent on my Game Y), the bitterness all just tribal BS.

Both sides are understandable. People that "can't stop reminding you that your Tomb Kings (etc.) sucked and nobody bought them" are the ones that were bullied this last 5 years and are a bit bitter (completely comprensible, but no defensible).

I can understand both sides, but the point is that this behaviour doesn't help the hobby nor the community behind it.

[Greybeard86]

Hey, I haven’t seen any post crabbing on AoS here, or too much gloating over how the last bits ofWHFB crumble to dust under GW s cruel boot. So perhaps we should let the people who are fighting that way sort their issues on their own time

The bitterness on either side is understandable but ultimately perhaps not worth discussing too much. 
 

Now, is TOW going to be a very limited release with only a few new sculpts in an effort to avoid grognards just reusing dusty pewter armies? I d call that a big mistake. Since aside from TW fans, most likely the intended targets are precisely the nostalgic 30+ lads who are paying 100+ on ebay for a box of breton knights or metal pilgrims. The IP is strong but I don’t know if burning these folks twice (this plus end times) would be a good idea. Is it me or it seems that this particular demographic is super prevalent in the hobby? 

[EccentricCircle]

All we can really do is be welcoming to other wargamers regardless of which games we all prefer, and set the right example.

On a more lore related note, when did the Vampire Counts take over Sylvania? I don't have my books with me at present, but seem to recall Vlad staged a coup by marrying into the previous lords family and turning them to vamps? would that have happened yet, or would it be going on in the timeframe of the game?

Really I'm hoping for the return of my beloved tomb kings, and will happily settle for playing Kislev, but vampire counts would be a nice contrast to the more human factions!

[Lord of the Isle]

Sylviania would indeed be von Carstein at this time!

[EccentricCircle]

1 minute ago, Lord of the Isle said:

Sylviania would indeed be von Carstein at this time!

Nice, thanks!

[Beliman]

13 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

Now, is TOW going to be a very limited release with only a few new sculpts in an effort to avoid grognards just reusing dusty pewter armies?

Not "just" for grognards, but for everyone that played or wanted to play Fantasy.

[Offtopic]

Spoiler

Btw, check Manuscritos de Nuth (use Google Translator, it's eazy to understand). They updated pre-6th and post-6th edition units to be playable with 6th edition and they did an amazing job.

[Ontopic]

I can see the return of some "not-old" kits like the  necrosphinx (200€ seems to be"cheap", common GW! you want our money!) and it will please a lot of people! Heck, even the oldest ones can be made to order!

Another crazy thing that's in my wishlist is to see the non-published Black Fire Pass campaign in some form. I'm pretty sure that some greenzkinz models are/were from that campaing but what about our BIG BOY!?!

[Lord of the Isle]

42 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

Nice, thanks!

Argh slight retraction - double checked and Vlad is dead and Mannfred ‘killed’ at Hel Fenn. Lots of minor von Cs hanging in there tho surely

[EccentricCircle]

28 minutes ago, Lord of the Isle said:

Argh slight retraction - double checked and Vlad is dead and Mannfred ‘killed’ at Hel Fenn. Lots of minor von Cs hanging in there tho surely

Ah interesting, in some ways that's actually a better era for VC creativity, since you don't just have to stick with the Canon count, but can have different factions and new characters rather than just the ones we've all been familiar with.

[Greybeard86]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Not "just" for grognards, but for everyone that played or wanted to play Fantasy.

[Offtopic]

  Reveal hidden contents

Btw, check Manuscritos de Nuth (use Google Translator, it's eazy to understand). They updated pre-6th and post-6th edition units to be playable with 6th edition and they did an amazing job.

[Ontopic]

I can see the return of some "not-old" kits like the  necrosphinx (200€ seems to be"cheap", common GW! you want our money!) and it will please a lot of people! Heck, even the oldest ones can be made to order!

Another crazy thing that's in my wishlist is to see the non-published Black Fire Pass campaign in some form. I'm pretty sure that some greenzkinz models are/were from that campaing but what about our BIG BOY!?!

You won't get any pushback from me on this. TOW is about nostalgia, IMO, and about an over the top but slightly more grounded style for both minis and background. If they AoSy all the sculpts and/or squash any hope to use the old ones, I think they'll be approaching it the wrong way.

I want my landship to "sail" again, I want over the top hats with feathers longer than swords, normie snobby knights trampling unwashed peasants (and the occasional robin hood), traditional dawi and true slayers, pharaons and babylonian evil dawi, I would like my italian condottieri back, and I would love to see Albion represented beyond my trusted giants. I think that any survey on those who are excited about TOW we would likely find similar preferences.

[Lord of the Isle]

I’m interested to note a few other things -

1 there are Wood Elves in Arden!

2 Mordheim is post comet but pre purging, maximum fun time

3 Mousillon is post Merovech but pre Maldred - so decadent but outwardly loyal

[Greybeard86]

7 minutes ago, Lord of the Isle said:

I’m interested to note a few other things -

1 there are Wood Elves in Arden!

2 Mordheim is post comet but pre purging, maximum fun time

3 Mousillon is post Merovech but pre Maldred - so decadent but outwardly loyal

I think there is a chance to develop some of the plot lines you mention here (e.g. Mousillon). I hope to see more characters based on narrative being developed and to be able to field them.

I also hope they do not stick too much to the old timelines a la 30k. Why not develop an alternative timeline? What if are all time favourites among fans. I am sure a lot of people care more about the "style" of TOW and not so much about any particular course of events. As long as the "essence" is preserved, that is.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Greybeard86

[Sance]

The course of events leads to endtimes, i think people wouldn't mind the alternative timeline

[Lord of the Isle]

Yes, though to all appearances it ‘all went wrong’ much later! TOW’s period in established background leads to victory against chaos by the High Elves and Magnus, and a much more glorious period for the Empire...