Kitsumy Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) well... the pdfs i read seems sligthy weaker with sligthy higher cost for same things, and with less options. per example lizardmens, havent any sacred spawns ( like most of real books has, the 6th mechanic to pay points and upgrade some things). - only 2 spells instead the usual 3. - lost the 6s doing extra atacks. - scaly skin seems count as normal armor now? so our saurus hero save at 4 at best, being slower, atacking last, hitting worse, being hit easier and costing more than every real faction hero saving at 2+ - cold ones always were the same as dark elfs since they are the same mount. but now dark elf one has +1t while having same stats and point cost. balance where?? - cold blood not working in break tests, making it pointless, we went from being the stone army that wont ever move ( like dwarfs) to go away running in every lost fight. - too high cost on saurus, temple guard and cold one cavalry. temple guard cost more than even swordmasters or phoenix guard hahaha or cold one cavalry costing like grail knights or prince dragons, while being worse, saving at 3s not 2s, and not having key abilitys like counter charge or first charge, and being stupid.... -the worst offense for every lizardmen player im sure, after decades of having our god frog going into battle being carried and huged by his temple guard he cant do it now!!! and must go alone to battle. - slan being as any 4rank mage but thoughter costing almost 100p more before upgrades.... - bastiladons having only 4w when steam tanks have 10!!!! is a total joke. - carno is worse than the worst dragon, and even sligthy worse than griffons!!! and saving at 5s when should have been a tank killing machine. and could go on.... but i think it is enough whinning from me Edited January 22 by Kitsumy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerekKruger Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, Tonhel said: TOW is cleary a huge succes, as was seen with launch day at GW HQ. So hopefully they will change their minds in the future as indeed lots of cool stuff can be done with Arcane journals for those legacy factions. Anyway I will buy all the Arcane Journals and all supplements / campaigns that TOW will get. So hopefully this is not the last day for those legacy factions! My how is that, if TOW is popular enough, we'll see something like Horus Heresy 2.0 where GW do a bigger relaunch with more plastic support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrac Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Now to start thinking which formations are best for the rats. I supose hordes have heavily changed, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarakUrbaz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 26 minutes ago, Kitsumy said: - cold ones always were the same as dark elfs since they are the same mount. but now dark elf one has +1t while having same stats and point cost. balance where?? That's because a Cold One mount is supposed to make a Dark Elf hero go from T3 to T4. Saurus heroes already start out at T5, if they were T6 they'd literally have the same toughness as a Carnosaur or Stegadon. 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsumy Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BarakUrbaz said: That's because a Cold One mount is supposed to make a Dark Elf hero go from T3 to T4. Saurus heroes already start out at T5, if they were T6 they'd literally have the same toughness as a Carnosaur or Stegadon. well so why isnt lizard one cheaper??? paying the same for the same thing, but worse in the most important part dont seems balanced to me and thats the problem, carno stegadon etc should give more stats too. lizardmen are supossed to be thougther, so why mounted lizardmens have the same toughness than elves( saurus on carno is 6t, same as elfs in dragons)??? we should be thoughter, otherwise why dont our mounts give us 4 init in order to be as fast as elves? Edited January 22 by Kitsumy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolfrig Bearhide Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 53 minutes ago, Ogregut said: Wraiths haven't been a unit in a undead army since 6th edition I believe. The wraith became a character. Edit: just remembered what they were like in 4th edition, 75 points a model, 3 wounds, 3 attacks with double handed weapons, immune to all but magical attacks. They were a bit over the top. They were around as a rare choice back in 8th. Bit of a pain that they were an option when you could only buy the models one at a time, and now you can buy units of 10 they’re no longer an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolfrig Bearhide Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 minutes ago, Kitsumy said: well so why isnt lizard one cheaper??? paying the same for the same thing, but worse in the most important part dont seems balanced to me Because Saurus characters are significantly scarier than dark elf nobles, so making them mobile should come at a cost. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 11 minutes ago, Kitsumy said: well... the joke about same work being put on legacys than supported is clearly vusible now, despite some guys false claims. Not sure I see it as an undead player. Vamp Counts look more or less on par with Tomb Kings. less experimental (no eg skeleton skirmishers), but still. "per example lizardmens, havent any sacred spawns ( like most of real books has, the 6th mechanic to pay points and upgrade some things)." most 'supported' factions don't have this sort of variant thing either, least not in the main 2 books. "scaly skin seems count as normal armor now? so our saurus hero save at 4 at best, being slower, atacking last, hitting worse, being hit easier and costing more than every real faction hero saving at 2+" You've got the same mundane armor as a Tomb King can get, better mounted since cold ones have +1 armor. also better if you're comparing heroes instead of lords, since princes only get light armor. As with tomb kings, you compensate w/ magic items if you think you need it, and console yourself with toughness 5, which is significant. "cold ones always were the same as dark elfs since they are the same mount. but now dark elf one has +1t while having same stats and point cost." This is odd & should be fixed. "cold blood not working in break tests, making it totally useless, we went from being the stone army that wont ever move ( like dwarfs) to go away running in every lost fight." break tests work different now. Everyone is effectively stubborn. it's understandable that devs might have thought that + cold blood was too much. fear & terror matters more now, so the new version is still a real ability. "the worst offense for every lizardmen player im sure, after decades of having our god frog going into battle being carried and huged by his temple guard he cant do it now!!! and must go alone to battle." What prevents him from joining the unit? did I miss something? "bastiladons having only 4w when steam tanks have 10!!!! is a total joke." War Sphinx only has 5 Wounds. 4 doesn't seem that odd for a smaller monster, & 3+ save still makes it tougher than most. "carno is a joke, worse than worst dragon, and even sligthy worse than griffons!!! and saving at 5s when should have been a tank killing machine." you'll put a hero on it and give the hero better/magic armor. "and could go on.... but i think everyone get the idea." It's a new game. maybe some of the points & balance is off, but I'd wan't to see how things actually play out on the table before casting such harsh judgement. cold one situation is weird though. I could see devs not wanting a saurus hero on a cold one to be Tough 6, but they should work the same between dark elves & lizardmen regardless. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyantheFett Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) I just don't see GW moving away from their no army being used in different games approach. Even with all the success they will still just remove those faction and most likely just replace them with Russian and China. Hope I am wrong, but can see the same thing with HH and 40k. And they are still pulling units out of those games for the other......... Edited January 22 by RyantheFett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, RyantheFett said: I just don't see GW moving away from their no army being used in different games approach. Before old world was announced, would you have thought they'd ever go back on killing warhammer fantasy at all? dumb corporate decisions change over time as the people in charge change and old hangups are traded for new ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, Sception said: Before old world was announced, would you have thought they'd ever go back on killing warhammer fantasy at all? dumb corporate decisions change over time as the people in charge change and old hangups are traded for new ones. They didn't go back. In fact, they are pushing hard here and there, even in the TOW rules book, that the Old World has been destroyed and the Mortal Realms were born after that. IMO this is a clear way to say, 'Hey, don't forget that the end of times happened and the main game is AoS', otherwise I don't get why they would have to name it so much when it is so distant in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 6 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: They didn't go back. In fact, they are pushing hard here and there, even in the TOW rules book, that the Old World has been destroyed and the Mortal Realms were born after that. IMO this is a clear way to say, 'Hey, don't forget that the end of times happened and the main game is AoS', otherwise I don't get why they would have to name it so much when it is so distant in the future. The game my dude. Killing warhammer fantasy the game. Square bases, ranks & flanks, unit trays, USRs. The Old World, as a rule set, is /very much/ warhammer fantasy, a game they swore up and down was never coming back, and they absolutely meant it when they said it. The Old World only exists because corporations like GW can and do go back on stupid decisions all the time, no matter how firmly carved in stone. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Public Universal Duardin Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 53 minutes ago, Pizzaprez said: If you start a Chaos army using the Horns of Hashut as your main aesthetic touchstone, you'll be able to easily justify putting Chorfs on the same side of the table as 'em once they release! That's the route I decided to go That's a very inspired idea!!! Don't mind if I st--err...borrow it. 48 minutes ago, FFJump said: Just do Chaos Dwarfs, that's what I'm doing . Chaos Dwarfs have always been the army that you had to work to get built up on the fringes of support, so this changes nothing. Unless you're planning on attending any GW events, most indy events already said legacy will be allowed and the general community sentiment seems to be just treat them as any other army. If it's models you're worried about, you could always Chaos-ify some Dwarfs or get some 3rd party if you don't want to source the minis. I'm a Chorf lover, and I'm lucky in that I already had an existing 6th edition and Azgorh army I've built up from official models over the years, so I know I'm an outlier but there's plenty of other options available until the AoS Chorfs come out. I live in Finland, so there's no GW events - there's just a single GW store in the entire country, rest is small flgs-es that sell Warhammer minis alongside other geek/hobby tat - so that's not something I'm worried about. I actually have some - perhaps 500 points worth - chorf minis I purchased over a decade ago. Some are og, the real deal, but most are third party metal Chorfs some guy from Russia made and sold on ebay (looking genuinely pretty awesome) 😁 I don't know why I have this weird feeling of anxiety regarding support and fear of using anything but GW minis when I'll mainly play TOW against the very same people I did 15 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EonChao Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, Garrac said: Round bases and square trays, my friend As the Dark Elves have fairly small square bases I was thinking of using those and then attaching magnets to them and to some AoS round bases so I can just add them on top of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Kitsumy said: scaly skin seems count as normal armor now? so our saurus hero save at 4 at best, being slower, atacking last, hitting worse, being hit easier and costing more than every real faction hero saving at 2+ Dwarfs, the most defensive army there, one of the Core Factions, rocks a max 3+ save. The only way to reach a 2+ is using spells or a Master Rune. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) From a whatsapp group. Supposed photo of the dwarf box content: Edited January 22 by Ejecutor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorticulusTGA Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 4 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: From a whatsapp group. Supposed photo of the dwarf box content: That's the content of the old Battalion, but why not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Question: Am I right to assume that a Vampire Lord can’t cast spells once he wears any armour? (I could not find a rule allowing them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Looking at saurus warriors, lets compare them to a similar unit in an 'official' faction - basic Chaos Warriors. Both close order heavy infantry, both 14 points a model with heavy armor, hand weapon, and shield. Both get -1 ap with their hand weapons, but chaos warriors also get magical attacks. Chaos warriors have more weapon options, but their model kit also had more weapon options, so that is what it is. Both have a special rule that helps them with fear, terror, and panic tests. Both Move 4, Strength 4, Tough 4, Wound 1, and Leadership 8. Chaos Warriors get +1 weapon skill (4 vs. 3), and +3 initiative (4 vs. 1), which admittedly is pretty huge. Even with maximum charge bonus, saurus can only hope to tie initiative with Chaos Warriors. On the other hand, Saurus have +1 attacks, which is a big deal. Nearly double the attacks per frontage (slightly less than double since comparing champions is 3 vs. 2 attacks). Chaos Warriors can pay extra points to trade the undivided mark for another, which may or may not be a benefit. a limited number of saurus units can take shield wall, which isn't as good, but also isn't nothing. All in all, yeah, I'd call the chaos warriors better. Saurus are certainly better at chewing through big bulky chaff units like zombies and skeletons which will have trouble causing damage through the more elite infantry's Ws4, T4, and 4+ save, leaving most of the front rank alive to take advantage of those extra attacks, but have trouble dealing with stuff that hits hard enough to drop several saurus before their abysmal initiative 1, since every lost saurus is a significant reduction in their damage output. That said, I don't think chaos warriors are better by a huge margine, and their faction does pay some significant costs for their elite melee infantry, including having little to no shooting and relatively limited access to skirmishers & ambushers & the like, while lizardmen are a much broader 'some of everything' kind of faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: From a whatsapp group. Supposed photo of the dwarf box contents: I'm not a fan of the Battle for the skull pass thunderers. Anyone know if quarrellers and thunderes had another double kit or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EonChao Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 7 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: From a whatsapp group. Supposed photo of the dwarf box content: For one thing that's an older box, as has been pointed out.For another it doesn't match the Orcs and Goblins one in terms of contents which seems to be a red flag. I could see it having another cannon and a few more dwarves personally 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 20 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: Question: Am I right to assume that a Vampire Lord can’t cast spells once he wears any armour? (I could not find a rule allowing them) Yes, though they do have one magic item, the flayed hauberk, which is heavy armor that a wizard can still wear. And they can ride a nightmare, for another pip of armor from its barding. And since strength no longer reduces armor automatically, a 4+ save still kind of means something. Spells or armor is a pretty tough decision for vampire lords. Lots of power and utility in magic, but lack of armor makes you pretty vulnerable. Then again, if you're not a wizard you can't be the general, which lets you take a big expensive killy vampire lord, maybe on a monster, and throw him into combat secure in the knowledge that your load bearing general is a hero wizard safely buried in a second line infantry block. Edited January 22 by Sception 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrus Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Yes , it is the Old Battalion 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorticulusTGA Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 BTW, great to have a first FAQ, and Oh MY those Legacy Lists are tasty... "Official" 100x150 Greater Deamons 😍 Black Orc Boss (the new resin Guy !!) and Black Orc Mobs in Chorfs Armies 😍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 that box MUST have double amount in everything to be the real deal,that box had 4 units when even orcs have 6 or 7 units. also pretty dissapointed with the balance of core armys vs pdf army. only seeing the balance in mirror units or skill,the pdf are worse and expensiver.......just why yes. examples: -high elfs and dark elfs had allways a +1 casting,now high elf have reroll one failled cast EACH TURN while dark elf only reroll one failled cast ONE TIME IN ENTIRE GAME. so it is a mirror skill but better in core when was mirror in fantasy. -black guard vs phoenyx guard, similar stats and cost but phoemyx guard have ward 6 better for same cost. again not huge but for same cost have same stats but core army a extra of ward6 -executiomer vs swordmasters: same stats in general but dark elf cost +2 points than high elf and only have killing blows while swordmaster have +1 rend,+2 ws,+2initiative,ward6 to shooting and the 6 to wound ignore saves. again mirror units but pdf have worse stats and cost more. -dark elfs on deep one vs dragon princess, have worse save,half attack(1 vs 2)and have stupidy that is worse than impetious. again same cost for mirror units but core have better save,double damage for same cost. it isnt huge but if wr give a 8/10 to high elfs per example then dark elfs are 5/10 and is the same with vampire counts and lizardmens(i didnt see the others). pdf armys arent useless or umplayables,but for sure they are one tier under core armys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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