Squatting Watch: Alerts for Discontinued Models

[Tankman]

58 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

It seems some things were not communicated well when writing the GHB 2019, mercenaries with models that went out of production later (and will have their warscroll moved to legends, based on all the communication GW gave us), and return of old profiles that got squatted again later (17, starhosts are a bit further up).

Just to be clear just because it is last chance to buy does not mean it is going to legends.  There could be a new sculpt. They just need to provide the rest of the information

[zilberfrid]

13 minutes ago, Tankman said:

Just to be clear just because it is last chance to buy does not mean it is going to legends.  There could be a new sculpt. They just need to provide the rest of the information

It is technically possible, but I highly doubt it. Even a small line of "Some of the models that went out of production will return with an updated sculpt" would have quelled quite a bit of trouble. I think the updated models will be at CoS launch as a seperate phasing out of old models.

Edited August 14, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Forrix]

19 minutes ago, Tankman said:

Just to be clear just because it is last chance to buy does not mean it is going to legends.  There could be a new sculpt. They just need to provide the rest of the information

I doubt we'll see new sculpts but I definitely agree with the lack of information being a problem. I had originally assumed when the cull happened we'd see COS announced that Sunday. It would make sense to explain to players how their duardin armies will operate considering they lost their main battleline option or Wanderer players now that they have 1 character left. The weeks of silence that have followed, and possibly more (now that it looks like Beastgrave will be the next pre-order) I feel is turning this into one of AOS's major PR fails. 

[Kyriakin]

I think there is only one way to solve this ongoing problem.

Once all the 2.0 battletomes are written - and depending on lead times, that may have happened already - make a huge, hard-back Warhammer Legends book with all of the Old World Legends warscrolls, Old World art, Old World fluff and, most importantly, points values in the back. Seriously, it can't be a coincidence that both pre-GHB AoS and Warhammer Legends have flopped as unpointed systems. The comments on Facebook Legends postings were literally 95% about the lack of points - be it for ease of pick-up games (i.e. casuals) or from a more competitive mindset.

There were 15 or 16 old world armies and won't be any more to alter the established meta, so, aside from some minor adjustments, this would probably be a one-time effort that can be priced at a premium price-point for players who already have all their models and terrain ready to go.

*** Edit: I should state that this would have no overlap with the main game, with the warscrolls and points only usable in Legends *,, 

I can already hear the wails of the "Fantasy sucked, get over it" crowd, but wouldn't it be nice if "moving to Legends" actually meant something other than a squatting-in-all-but-name to a game with no points and only one viable army (i.e. Dark Elves), and instead meant these WHFB armies taking their rightful place within an active game where the fluff and aesthetics match. In such cases, Dispossessed, Wanderers, Empire (etc.) players may actually be glad to move on and with less consternation, as they actually have something palpable to move on to.

AoS can then take the direction it wants to take. A clean break from the past.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Kyriakin

[svnvaldez]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

Make a huge, hard-back Warhammer Legends book with all of the Old World Legends warscrolls, Old World art, Old World fluff and, most importantly, points values in the back.

I do not agree or support this.

I also think the GW communication on these squats was awful. I for one had bought a fair few gitmob and greenskinz in the last year. 

That said I do not want any unsupported lines of models in Pitched Battles. And as the game is currently constructed the concept of points is a Pitched Battles thing (read the rules if you disagree).  Pitched Battles are a subset of Matched Play (pg 310)

Open play is for two players who know each other and legends is great there (pg 270)

Narrative Play has a GM who should set up armies / rules for armies (pg 281). Legends can also fit well here.

Finally you could play Matched Play without points and use wounds (pg 308). This is also legends compatible.

 

 

 

 

 

[chord]

3 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Seriously, it can't be a coincidence that both pre-GHB AoS and Warhammer Legends have flopped as unpointed systems.

sigh...this again.  

#FakeNews

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by chord

[Kyriakin]

7 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

That said I do not want any unsupported lines of models in Pitched Battles.

Sorry, I should have made it clear that Legends points/warscrolls would be completely separate from regular AoS, with no overlap

Edited August 15, 2019 by Kyriakin

[Skreech Verminking]

7 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

Finally you could play Matched Play without points and use wounds (pg 308). This is also legends compatible.

 

 

 

 

 

Before the first ghb launched, wounds was the way to calculate the army size.

something that was most of the time very, very unbalanced.

sure it was a time where monsters ruled the table, but in a game where there are basically no restriction like having to have battleline, there was basically no reason to even consider taking the casual units like darkshards, dreadspears, clanrats etc.

a fight between 100clanrats and 100Swordmasters is basically a very unbalanced game , with the victor decided before the game even has started.

so some form of points for legends units would be cool, especially when trying to fight some kind of a very fluffy campaign in the city of pillars or karak eight peaks, how it is named by the dwarfs.

[RuneBrush]

16 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

It seems some things were not communicated well when writing the GHB 2019, mercenaries with models that went out of production later (and will have their warscroll moved to legends, based on all the communication GW gave us), and return of old profiles that got squatted again later (17, starhosts are a bit further up).

Probably worth just adding here that the main design studio won't have been the ones who made the decision on what to put up as Last Chance to Buy.  That'll have been a separate part of the company that won't have been privy to what releases/content is upcoming.  All upcoming releases are very heavily guarded secrets within the company.

[zilberfrid]

18 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Probably worth just adding here that the main design studio won't have been the ones who made the decision on what to put up as Last Chance to Buy.  That'll have been a separate part of the company that won't have been privy to what releases/content is upcoming.  All upcoming releases are very heavily guarded secrets within the company.

That is true, but I would say that if you're adding a mechanic which mostly uses old models, choosing which sets are included would be done by all stakeholders in the company. It looked like a way to boost sales for these models for the most part.

When we're drafting a proposal for new clients, we're not including services we provide for existing customers, but do not see much future in. We certainly don't include services we want to stop within two months.

[Overread]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Probably worth just adding here that the main design studio won't have been the ones who made the decision on what to put up as Last Chance to Buy.  That'll have been a separate part of the company that won't have been privy to what releases/content is upcoming.  All upcoming releases are very heavily guarded secrets within the company.

Yeah and there in lies the problem - GW clearly needs at least one or more staff dedicated to floating between departments to ensure that Department A isn't setting up a problem for Department B. This could be as simple as ensuring that the photography department doesn't use models that are going to be removed in newer marketing photos; or ensuring that a base size change from the rules team makes it to the packing side. 

We've already had mistakes such as when Greenskins were pulled, GW still had the greenskin box shown in marketing material in the white dwarf issue that month. 

 

I think it would also help if when some things were pulled, GW owned up to it at the time in marketing, because moulds do break. If, lets say, the Greenskin mould shatters or is found to be far more worn or damaged before GW was going to pull them formally and it has to be done earlier then its a great marketing move to be upfront and say "Hey we were going to remove these guys, sorry but its happening sooner than we'd like because the mould broke and there's no point spending another £100,000 (or thereabouts) on a new one at this stage."

 

I think one issue is that GW is scared about tipping their hand - just look how fast Raging Heroes made and is now selling new "female untamed beast" models after Warcry dropped. Only a week or two after GW put them on sale and those models were only revealed in the normal run of things. What if GW had previewed those ideas a year and a half ago RH could have had that warband out before GW (though granted for Warcy that would be a mistake since it wasn't a game yet). 

The other is that they are slaved to the launch sales concept and they don't want people sitting on money. Their theory is that a shorter period of build up (a few months now) is a "safe" space for them to market in for most things. Though I'm hoping that Sisters of Battle sell phenomenally well because GW has marketed them a whole year or more earlier than normal. I think if that can prove to be  record or even just really strong sales it might encourage them to consider revealing info on at least updated model lines a lot earlier. I dont' think we'll ever reach a point where they preview new armies and concepts that early; but at least updated sculpts could be "spoilt" early . 

[Trayanee]

On 8/14/2019 at 1:40 PM, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Right, but their profiles got removed again by GHB 2019 errata (except Master with Battle Standard).

Thanks for a heads up. Well, that is sad. I don't see a reason for it. I mean, getting to Legends is a form of punishment now because as long as GW is lazy to move any old faction to Legends, it can be played in matched...that logic sounds by far too twisted to me. Almost Tzeenchian I would say...

[Enochi]

5 hours ago, Overread said:

Yeah and there in lies the problem - GW clearly needs at least one or more staff dedicated to floating between departments to ensure that Department A isn't setting up a problem for Department B. This could be as simple as ensuring that the photography department doesn't use models that are going to be removed in newer marketing photos; or ensuring that a base size change from the rules team makes it to the packing side. 

We've already had mistakes such as when Greenskins were pulled, GW still had the greenskin box shown in marketing material in the white dwarf issue that month. 

 

I think it would also help if when some things were pulled, GW owned up to it at the time in marketing, because moulds do break. If, lets say, the Greenskin mould shatters or is found to be far more worn or damaged before GW was going to pull them formally and it has to be done earlier then its a great marketing move to be upfront and say "Hey we were going to remove these guys, sorry but its happening sooner than we'd like because the mould broke and there's no point spending another £100,000 (or thereabouts) on a new one at this stage."

 

I think one issue is that GW is scared about tipping their hand - just look how fast Raging Heroes made and is now selling new "female untamed beast" models after Warcry dropped. Only a week or two after GW put them on sale and those models were only revealed in the normal run of things. What if GW had previewed those ideas a year and a half ago RH could have had that warband out before GW (though granted for Warcy that would be a mistake since it wasn't a game yet). 

The other is that they are slaved to the launch sales concept and they don't want people sitting on money. Their theory is that a shorter period of build up (a few months now) is a "safe" space for them to market in for most things. Though I'm hoping that Sisters of Battle sell phenomenally well because GW has marketed them a whole year or more earlier than normal. I think if that can prove to be  record or even just really strong sales it might encourage them to consider revealing info on at least updated model lines a lot earlier. I dont' think we'll ever reach a point where they preview new armies and concepts that early; but at least updated sculpts could be "spoilt" early . 

Yeah I have been thinking about getting SoB army. But after GW screwed me on my Elysians and My AoS armies I think I will just buy the Raging heroes models instead. 

[Forrix]

5 hours ago, Overread said:

Yeah and there in lies the problem - GW clearly needs at least one or more staff dedicated to floating between departments to ensure that Department A isn't setting up a problem for Department B. This could be as simple as ensuring that the photography department doesn't use models that are going to be removed in newer marketing photos; or ensuring that a base size change from the rules team makes it to the packing side. 

Very much agree. The Warhammer Community site team in particular seems out of the loop. I remember when their AOS 2 rules preview for Fyreslayers wound up being directly contradicted by the day 1 FAQ (they later undid it). Not to mention a single article going up the day before or the day of the big cull stating stuff like "We know its sad for duardin players to see dispossessed warriors go but here's a sneak peak at a duardin army built using COS rules" would have done wonders. Of course that would also be a disaster if it turns out the army they preview isn't actually legal by COS rules.

[Overread]

2 hours ago, Enochi said:

Yeah I have been thinking about getting SoB army. But after GW screwed me on my Elysians and My AoS armies I think I will just buy the Raging heroes models instead. 

Well Sister of Battle wise its easy - they are going to replace the entire line. So you know that right now anything you buy will be removed and either replaced or simply removed. Though honestly all the core troops and units will be replaced and we've seen most of them already; what you might lose are one or two named characters. 

Otherwise everything is coming back in plastic - new warriors, new seraphon, new repentia, new rhino etc...

[Enochi]

16 minutes ago, Overread said:

Well Sister of Battle wise its easy - they are going to replace the entire line. So you know that right now anything you buy will be removed and either replaced or simply removed. Though honestly all the core troops and units will be replaced and we've seen most of them already; what you might lose are one or two named characters. 

 Otherwise everything is coming back in plastic - new warriors, new seraphon, new repentia, new rhino etc...

Sure and GW lost a rather large sale to me because they screwed me. Instead Ill go to their competitors to buy things like Paints, Models, and the like. The Non-GW stores in my area don't care if I'm using non-gw models as long as they look close and are roughly the same size.

Is this going to hurt there bottom line any? I doubt their are enough players not on the GW Kool-aid train to make a difference but why should I support a company that has stabbed me in the back twice.  

[Overread]

9 minutes ago, Enochi said:

Sure and GW lost a rather large sale to me because they screwed me. Instead Ill go to their competitors to buy things like Paints, Models, and the like. The Non-GW stores in my area don't care if I'm using non-gw models as long as they look close and are roughly the same size.

Is this going to hurt there bottom line any? I doubt their are enough players not on the GW Kool-aid train to make a difference but why should I support a company that has stabbed me in the back twice.  

I'm confused how GW redoing the SoB army in plastic is causing you problems? They might get a few new units, but by and large the army core is going to remain the same. So any models you might already own will be readily useable and might need only a base change (if any); whilst if you don't own any then waiting a few months until the plastics hit is an ideal idea. 

I mean heck go for it with the 3rd party stuff if you've got 3rd party stores and clubs to play at! If I were building a Sisters army I'd throw some Wargame Exclusive in too! https://wargameexclusive.com Theyv'e some great sisters including a knight pilot as well as Imperial Assassins (Heresy hunters) and Guard options too! 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Overread

[Enochi]

59 minutes ago, Overread said:

I'm confused how GW redoing the SoB army in plastic is causing you problems? They might get a few new units, but by and large the army core is going to remain the same. So any models you might already own will be readily useable and might need only a base change (if any); whilst if you don't own any then waiting a few months until the plastics hit is an ideal idea. 

I mean heck go for it with the 3rd party stuff if you've got 3rd party stores and clubs to play at! If I were building a Sisters army I'd throw some Wargame Exclusive in too! https://wargameexclusive.com Theyv'e some great sisters including a knight pilot as well as Imperial Assassins (Heresy hunters) and Guard options too! 

Cause they have screwed me out of two armies already. So I'm not going to be buying another army from them. 

[AthlorianStoners]

Unsubstantiated rumors indicated some or all of the Ogres finecast will be removed. 

By no means a confirmation but if you had your eye on any of those models could be worth securing them early. 

[RuneBrush]

16 hours ago, Enochi said:

Yeah I have been thinking about getting SoB army. But after GW screwed me on my Elysians and My AoS armies I think I will just buy the Raging heroes models instead. 

I'm fairly sure that GW didn't do this to be personally attack you!

5 hours ago, AthlorianStoners said:

Unsubstantiated rumors indicated some or all of the Ogres finecast will be removed. 

By no means a confirmation but if you had your eye on any of those models could be worth securing them early. 

I would be very surprised if any finecast miniatures exist in a few years time, so very sound advice to pick them up sooner rather than later.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a box of plastic manslayers though!

[zilberfrid]

15 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I'm fairly sure that GW didn't do this to be personally attack you!

I would be very surprised if any finecast miniatures exist in a few years time, so very sound advice to pick them up sooner rather than later.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a box of plastic manslayers though!

For the first, I'm sure they did not think of the players at all when they decided to cut these lines, or only gave them cursory thought.

For the second, yeah, I suspect anything made of metal or finecast is on the way out. I just wanted to get Chaos Familiars, and they are out of stock as well.

Edited August 16, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Kramer]

On 8/14/2019 at 6:20 PM, zilberfrid said:

It is technically possible, but I highly doubt it. Even a small line of "Some of the models that went out of production will return with an updated sculpt" would have quelled quite a bit of trouble. I think the updated models will be at CoS launch as a seperate phasing out of old models.

I can’t imagine the cities of sigmar army not having cannons etc. So I’m thinking a re-sculpt as well. But we’ll see! 

[EccentricCircle]

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

I can’t imagine the cities of sigmar army not having cannons etc. So I’m thinking a re-sculpt as well. But we’ll see! 

I don't know. It feels as though AoS has been moving away from the idea of stationary war machines in general. Apart from the Stormcast ballista I can't think of any new faction which has had artilliary. Kharadrons have guns on their ships, but those function as a mobile platform. All of the other factions are more along the lines of monsters and troops.

I feel like it is one way they are trying to differentiate it from 40K, making it more about the big monsters and skirmishing troops, and less about artillery, pike and shot style units and other wargaming classics.

[Overread]

Artillery in general was stripped out, but I figure that it will return. Cannon are very well established as a feature for Free Peoples in the lore and in general cannon on the battlefield have years of support. Skaven still have all their artiliery as to Seraphon and a few others. I just figure its one more thing that GW wants to and will add just hasn't got the production slot to add for everyone at this stage. Heck we might even see them split artillery off into its own subdivision one day. 

[zilberfrid]

28 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

I don't know. It feels as though AoS has been moving away from the idea of stationary war machines in general. Apart from the Stormcast ballista I can't think of any new faction which has had artilliary. Kharadrons have guns on their ships, but those function as a mobile platform. All of the other factions are more along the lines of monsters and troops.

I feel like it is one way they are trying to differentiate it from 40K, making it more about the big monsters and skirmishing troops, and less about artillery, pike and shot style units and other wargaming classics.

I don't mind differentiation, but in Cities, (relatively) stationary artillery simply makes a lot of sense. Your city is stationary, and a target for big beasts, having some cannon/other things to take them down sounds like the most logical thing to do.

Now these cannon/other things could be ridiculously over the top stuff like the Steam tank, volley gun or organ gun, or warp lightning cannons, or rocket batteries, or slingshot pelting flasks of holy water with a priest blessing each shot, but something of that kind seems rather fitting.