The Rumour Thread

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

All in favour of having some dwarfs and elves in non-order factions.

Just some minor nitpicking here, though: WHFB Empire in fact was pretty cosmopolitan, with ogre, halfling, and dwarf units in early editions alongside the humans. And then there was Dogs of War which was even more so. So having multi-species good guy humanoid factions isn't new for AoS.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that half of all this stuff was taken away after 6th edition. I don't remember ogres nor Halflings mixed together within the empire in 8th ED.

[Dawi not Duardin]

4 hours ago, Beliman said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that half of all this stuff was taken away after 6th edition. I don't remember ogres nor Halflings mixed together within the empire in 8th ED.

That is quite possibly right too, admittedly. I quit for the first time around Storm of Chaos in late 6th edition and haven't really kept track of Warhammer between then and the pandemic.

What I do gather, though, is that the factions became rather flanderized in the last few editions: instead of being written as rather intelligent civilizations with their own quirks, they started to get written as extreme versions of themselves. For example, my beloved Dwarfs seemed to stop using swords, spears, maces, etc., in favour of only axes and hammers for close combat fighting in the last few editions. This is pretty hardcore but would also be kind of stupid of them. And then having the Empire becoming rather purist would fit that writing too. It'd be good if AoS could avoid that: one way to make the civilizations more grounded and realistic in an often somewhat too unrealistic setting is to have them be pragmatic enough to engage with each other.

[Beliman]

4 hours ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

What I do gather, though, is that the factions became rather flanderized in the last few editions: instead of being written as rather intelligent civilizations with their own quirks, they started to get written as extreme versions of themselves

I suppose it's part of the evolution of the game. I think that early editions had a mix of everything. Coming from a role playing game, there was a mix of crazy stuff/civilizations, big monsters or even mounts for everyone, regiments of renown that come from campaigns, etc... and evey new edition, the game was polished/flanderized (depensing on your preference) and armies split up, some units removed, and some designs were stablished.

If I'm not wrong, beasts of chaos/warriors of chaos and Tomb Kings/vampire counts were part of this process between 5th and 6th.

[El Syf]

22 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I suppose it's part of the evolution of the game. I think that early editions had a mix of everything. Coming from a role playing game, there was a mix of crazy stuff/civilizations, big monsters or even mounts for everyone, regiments of renown that come from campaigns, etc... and evey new edition, the game was polished/flanderized (depensing on your preference) and armies split up, some units removed, and some designs were stablished.

If I'm not wrong, beasts of chaos/warriors of chaos and Tomb Kings/vampire counts were part of this process between 5th and 6th.

And then in end times the undying king Nagash united Tomb kings and vampire counts once more; like a boss!

[Beliman]

9 minutes ago, El Syf said:

And then in end times the undying king Nagash united Tomb kings and vampire counts once more; like a boss!

To be fair, Chaos too (and beasts accepted marks again), dark and high elfs changed troops between armies and ogres and greenskinz had something weird between them.

[El Syf]

26 minutes ago, Beliman said:

To be fair, Chaos too (and beasts accepted marks again), dark and high elfs changed troops between armies and ogres and greenskinz had something weird between them.

High on end times nostalgia now!

[Ogregut]

To be fair, in 7th and 8th edition warhammer, things like dwarves with swords and halflings and ogres in the empire still existed in the background, just there wasn't models for them available. 

[cofaxest]

5 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

To be fair, in 7th and 8th edition warhammer, things like dwarves with swords and halflings and ogres in the empire still existed in the background, just there wasn't models for them available. 

Dwarves with huge runnic 2h swords are kinda cool concept IMO. The thing that is bothering me is why dwarves doesn't use halberds? It's basically axe with better reach)

Edited January 7, 2023 by cofaxest

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Ogregut said:

To be fair, in 7th and 8th edition warhammer, things like dwarves with swords and halflings and ogres in the empire still existed in the background, just there wasn't models for them available. 

Yep. And AoS has a lot more open space in the background. We already have a lot of non-model weapons, armies, mercenaries (orruks working for free cities), etc... 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Beliman

[MitGas]

3 hours ago, cofaxest said:

Dwarves with huge runnic 2h swords are kinda cool concept IMO. The thing that is bothering me is why dwarves doesn't use halberds? It's basically axe with better reach)

A dwarf‘s two-hander is a human‘s longsword. 😆 I think that might be why - using weapons with longer reach just underlines the inherit drawback a small stature in combat would have, as you would never match the reach of a larger creature. It might be better to play on their strengths (physical strength/durability) - they gotta get close to you but when they do, you‘re in a word of hurt… 

Or they just didn‘t want to stray from the classic axe-look 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Neverchosen]

16 minutes ago, MitGas said:

A dwarf‘s two-hander is a human‘s longsword. 😆 I think that might be why - using weapons with longer reach just underlines the inherit drawback a small stature in combat would have, as you would never match the reach of a larger creature. It might be better to play on their strengths (physical strength/durability) - they gotta get close to you but when they do, you‘re in a word of hurt… 

Or they just didn‘t want to stray from the classic axe-look 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

I mean Dwarves are often portrayed as a little stronger and robust than their human counterparts and are expert miner's a large zweihander might actually be easier for them to use than a human at least in terms of stamina, and also they would have the production capacity for large metallic weapons. They also could represent their crafting abilities making their swords more lightweight but still stronger using fantastical alloys.

I do think Lord of the Rings helped people associate dwarves with Axes, but Tolkien's dwarves use swords, axes, bows, spears and in my opinion their most cool weapons mattocks. Overall, I think dwarves should technically have the best weapons no matter the make in most fantasy settings. I always loved the variety of arms and armour that Tolkien depicted in his drawing of Smaug on the horde of Erebor.

However, to your point about reach I would like to see more fantasy dwarves using pole weapons and that includes pole axes.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Neverchosen

[cofaxest]

44 minutes ago, MitGas said:

A dwarf‘s two-hander is a human‘s longsword. 😆 I think that might be why - using weapons with longer reach just underlines the inherit drawback a small stature in combat would have, as you would never match the reach of a larger creature. It might be better to play on their strengths (physical strength/durability) - they gotta get close to you but when they do, you‘re in a word of hurt… 

Or they just didn‘t want to stray from the classic axe-look 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

It's not true. Dwarves are stronger and more durable and shorter then humans so is would be much easer for them to use halberd for fighting and as anti cavalry weapon. Plus they can use runnic halberds which is even cooler.

Edited January 7, 2023 by cofaxest

[dirkdragonslayer]

In Dwarf Fortress, spears are part of the holy trinity of Dwarven weapons. Axes for hordes of soft targets, hammers for hard armored targets, spears for causing internal damage to big monsters. But I'm not imagining it's super long spears like real-life pike walls, but shorter ones like boar spears, hunting spears, or winged spears. Like how some of the Kharadron have those pikes for killing sky monsters.

[cofaxest]

3 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

In Dwarf Fortress, spears are part of the holy trinity of Dwarven weapons. Axes for hordes of soft targets, hammers for hard armored targets, spears for causing internal damage to big monsters. But I'm not imagining it's super long spears like real-life pike walls, but shorter ones like boar spears, hunting spears, or winged spears. Like how some of the Kharadron have those pikes for killing sky monsters.

FS have magmapikes with 1" range) which is sad... 

[MitGas]

8 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

It's not true. Dwarves are stronger and more durable and shorter then humans so is would be much easer for them to use halberd for fighting and as anti cavalry weapon. Plus they can use runnic halberds which is even cooler.

Reach > strength unless there is a gigantic discrepancy. Any RL combatant would tell you the same. It’s a huuuge advantage. It‘s why the spear outclasses the sword (if you got the room to wield it that is). I‘ve said dwarves have their own strengths compared to humans but if I put let’s say a Chaos Warrior vs a dwarf, both with „long“ weapons, I‘d put my money on the Chaos Warrior, simply because he‘s got a superior reach. 
 

Obviously other factors play a part too and I‘m sure many dwarves eat CW for breakfast and lunch but size is important. The dwarves‘ short height is also the reason why I don‘t see them handling pikes etc. well… as the pikes would need to be shorter than ones for humans, as they‘re closer to the ground even if their superior strength and stamina would make it easier for them to wield it. It‘s down to „logistics“ at this point. An ogre with a long weapon would outclass a human or aelf with a long weapon too, even if we disregard their superior strength. 
 

Not trying to hate on dwarves. My hate is only reserved for Lumineth and myself! 
 

 

 

[cofaxest]

5 hours ago, MitGas said:

Reach > strength unless there is a gigantic discrepancy. Any RL combatant would tell you the same. It’s a huuuge advantage. It‘s why the spear outclasses the sword (if you got the room to wield it that is). I‘ve said dwarves have their own strengths compared to humans but if I put let’s say a Chaos Warrior vs a dwarf, both with „long“ weapons, I‘d put my money on the Chaos Warrior, simply because he‘s got a superior reach.

Dwarves doesn't need to compete with taller races for reach if we talking about spears/halberds. Cavalry is a problem. If dwarves will fight vs big targets with long weapon they can shoot them. Dwarves doesn't have cavalry so logic tells me that spears/halberds are more usefull to protect thunderers or irondrakes from cavalry charge then standart line infantry with axes. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by cofaxest

[Koala]

People here are overcomplicating things.

Dwarves with halberds were called Chaos Dwarfs. 

And without their big hats those would have looked wrong on them. ( Because long weapon short wielder is a bit odd).

[pnkdth]

Many weapons used in fantasy are not really weapons of war to begin with. Most one handed or hand and a half swords were, in fact, sidearms. Much safer and efficient if you and your mates stick together with longer weapons such as spears. That being said, the scenario of Glorious Close Combat™ with two expert duellists using finely crafted swords captures the imagination and inner nerd.

Rule of cool is more fun than realism.

21 minutes ago, Koala said:

Dwarves with halberds were called Chaos Dwarfs. 

And to bring back the discussion to rumours. Chorfs is DEFINITELY one of the chaos tomes coming later this year. My source is me, myself, and the voice of Hashut speaking through me.

Edited January 7, 2023 by pnkdth

[MitGas]

5 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Many weapons used in fantasy are not really weapons of war to begin with. Most one handed or hand and a half swords were, in fact, sidearms. Much safer and efficient if you and your mates stick together with longer weapons such as spears. That being said, the scenario of Glorious Close Combat™ with two expert duellists using finely crafted swords captures the imagination and inner nerd.

Rule of cool is more fun than realism.

And to bring back the discussion to rumours. Chorfs is DEFINITELY one of the chaos tomes coming later this year. My source is me, myself, and the voice of Hashut speaking through me.

Please be right and not just delusional.  😁

Edited January 7, 2023 by MitGas

[LordSolarMach]

17 hours ago, Beliman said:

...If I'm not wrong, beasts of chaos/warriors of chaos and Tomb Kings/vampire counts were part of this process between 5th and 6th...

Yeah, in late 5th the Undead book had Vampire Counts spun out of it, with the Tomb Kings following on its heels in 6th. 

(Funnily enough, in the muttering when it happened, the Legions of Nagash were brought up as a sort of "third pillar" of the Undead book, but we didn't really get anything of its like until the Ossiarch Bonereapers.)

[Ogregut]

What do we think today's article will announce? 

I'm betting on slaves to darkness and the new GHB. 

[Overread]

Hopefully Slaves, they've been waiting long enough and it would be a powerful release to start the year off for AoS. 

[Public Universal Duardin]

14 hours ago, pnkdth said:

And to bring back the discussion to rumours. Chorfs is DEFINITELY one of the chaos tomes coming later this year. My source is me, myself, and the voice of Hashut speaking through me.

Truly this must be true then, for Hashut would never lie to His loyal disciples! Chorfs confirmed, prepare for 2023 Chorf sweep and GW earning 10 Chorfillion [insert local currency]!

[KingBrodd]

Bring on STD!!

[Twisted Firaun]

53 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

Bring on STD!!

Only on a Warhammer thread would this phrase not be met with instant confusion and disgust.