The Rumour Thread

[DinoJon]

1 minute ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

To be honest for me, Kragnos feels very underwhelming both in the lore and in games so far. Yes, he is a new center piece hero, but is he so much better than Gordrakk? 

Two weeks ago on Warhammer weekly Vince talked about that one of the big heroes/god's should die (for a couple of years at least) to bring the narrative forward and it feels like that could be needed. Let Morathi die doing something to enhance her power or have Belakor kill Archaon. You could still play them legally, but inte lore they would be dead, at least for an edition or two.

 

For all that happened in broken realms pretty much stayed the same. How cities of signar/stormcast still can be on the same side as Morathi is a mystery to me after what she did and Kragnos became a big "meh" in the end. Sure Nagash is "dead" but that's happened a couple of times already in the stories...

Kragnos I feel is represented well in the lore. I am reading through the Kragnos book now and everything else I have read definitely puts him at the same god-level I would put Morathi in. 

They effectively "killed" Nagash, Archon and Katakros either in Broken Realms or for the latter in the events leading up to it. 

With most of the gods they will have an effective way of being restored so a lot of times their deaths will feel hollow (looking at you stormcast).  

I don't necessarily feel like killing a character is that great of a story telling device for the most part. Sure it gives some stakes but I think there could be more imaginative ways of pushing the story forward. I am not a writer or anything of the sort. 

[Neverchosen]

1 hour ago, DinoJon said:

Kragnos I feel is represented well in the lore. I am reading through the Kragnos book now and everything else I have read definitely puts him at the same god-level I would put Morathi in. 

They effectively "killed" Nagash, Archon and Katakros either in Broken Realms or for the latter in the events leading up to it. 

With most of the gods they will have an effective way of being restored so a lot of times their deaths will feel hollow (looking at you stormcast).  

I don't necessarily feel like killing a character is that great of a story telling device for the most part. Sure it gives some stakes but I think there could be more imaginative ways of pushing the story forward. I am not a writer or anything of the sort. 

The thing I like about the gods is that they require creative solutions to defeat like Slaanesh in chains or tearing apart Grimnir's body and soul.

Or giving Malerion his own bedroom/realm where he can listen to Joy Division alone. 

 

Death may be the most immediate way to deal with a God but also the least permanent.

 

I still want to see the destruction pantheon expanded to include other disastrous elemental gods. Blizzards, Tempests, volcanoes and drought would be cool.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Neverchosen

[Gothmaug]

I just want something to CHANGE... Warhammer AoS and 40K suffer from a stagnant world. Story elements change at an extremely slow pace, and if anyone important dies, well wait 2 years until they miraculously reappear. I waited with excitement for the launch of 3rd edition AOS. All the tidbits and teasers about Gordraak preparing to attack Excelcius and use the Godbeast skull to knock down the gates and assault the realm of Azyr. GW had is set up perfectly for a big world changing event at the launch of 3rtd edition, as the gates to Azyr split open and suddenly that realm can be assaulted from Ghur. New narrative, new storylines as plenty. Chances for Grungni to release whatever his pet projects are in Azyr (perhaps new dwarves) to reinforce the gate and stop the Orkish incursion into Azyr. Or Sigmar has to pull foces from other fronts to defend Azyr, which gives chaos a chance to grow in power. 

Instead we get a failed attempt on the City of Excelsius, the big centaur-godbeast being useless and simply teleported away, and GorkaMorka telling Gordraak to go play elsewhere. Yawn.... 

I say let the fight come to Azyr in AOS, and for got sakes, let the Emperor die in 40K. Time to tell some new stories. 

P.S. though I will give credit for the fall of the old world. It may not have been terribly popular move, but at least the story advanced to somewhere new. 

 

 

[DinoJon]

Broken Realms to Kragnos had a lot of great story moments that definitely impacted the world of AoS. 

Morathi ascended to god-hood, Anvil-guard fell, Slaanesh was able to spit a portion of itself into the the world, Nagash's "destruction" let Soulblight have even more autonomy, Kragnos' failed attempt led to even more of a push for the crusades to settle the realms, also Seraphon have become more active in the story which is a huge plus. 

This is probably just a me perspective since I read a lot of the books but it's had a pretty significant impact on the stories and how the world is depicted. Also AoS is a lot more dynamic than the Old World was pre-endtimes, so I think all of the story beats are super exciting. 

I just wish we would get the Gallet book to see where the story is going after the Thondia one. 

[Beliman]

22 hours ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

Kragnos feels very underwhelming both in the lore and in games so far

Imo, Gods should be like Horus Heresy Primarchs. They are powerhouses, than can completely change how your army play, but one big good aimed shoot can destroy them. I've seen a bunch of despoilers (aka, melee liberators) with a tooled centurion (small heroe on foot that can be tooled to be blenders, buffers, mages, etc...) taking some of their last wounds, something that it's really hard to see here.

900p Nagash, 800p Archi, 800p Allarielle... if one of them is good, you see him in a lot of lists, if it's not as good, you rarely see any of them unless they are used as tech-tools or stuff like double-triple taps.

Imo, they should be around 400-500p, with unique army-wide abilities that completely change how your army works, and some defensive tools (I'm against big point-sink glass cannons units, they are not fun). 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Beliman

[Gothmaug]

13 minutes ago, DinoJon said:

Broken Realms to Kragnos had a lot of great story moments that definitely impacted the world of AoS. 

Morathi ascended to god-hood, Anvil-guard fell, Slaanesh was able to spit a portion of itself into the the world, Nagash's "destruction" let Soulblight have even more autonomy, Kragnos' failed attempt led to even more of a push for the crusades to settle the realms, also Seraphon have become more active in the story which is a huge plus. 

This is probably just a me perspective since I read a lot of the books but it's had a pretty significant impact on the stories and how the world is depicted. Also AoS is a lot more dynamic than the Old World was pre-endtimes, so I think all of the story beats are super exciting. 

I just wish we would get the Gallet book to see where the story is going after the Thondia one. 

I'll give you the Morathi Acension, that was a major change in story beats for the world. But come on, for a game called Warhammer, we have very little war. The game has these huge army forces marching around tall over reality, and in general they accomplish very very little. Sure a city might fall here or there, but were talking titanic armies driven by GODS for goodness sakes. Entire countries should fall on a regular basis, the foundations of realms should be shaken. 

In the current lore all the realm-shattering wars happened in the past... Now were in a time of boring stagnation. When Nagash fell, there should have been a Massine invasion of the Shyish!!! A GOD fell, the preeminent force holding that entire realm under its sway, suddenly ceased to exist. Archaeon and Chaos should have swept in and taken half the realm before the Soul blight Gravelords managed to organize a resistance. Orks, drawn bu the carnage should have descended in innumerable hordes of screaming beserkers, plunging the realm into chaos and Anarchy. And the forces of Order should have taken their chance to send in strike forces to rescue the souls of any captured Stormcast Souls. It was the perfect opportunity. And instead, we got ...stagnation. 

 

[Nezzhil]

4 hours ago, LordSolarMach said:

I've seen solid speculation elsewhere that it could be new Scavvies for Necromunda. (As WrathOfTheLion mentions, the preamble is pointing to 'Munda with the Corpse Guild such-and-such.)

The text is never related to the model.

[DinoJon]

But we do have a lot of stuff going on... 

Lumineth invaded Shyish and destroyed a key location for the OBR.

Shish invaded Hyish and caused a tremendous amount of damage to Settler's Gain.

Excelsis had all of the Dark Aelves flee it while having it's inner and outer defenses destroyed.

In Gloomspite the city of Draconium was lost but it did prevent the loss of Hammerhall-Aqshy

Grombrindal is back and helping to unite the dwarves

In Arkanaut's Oath K.O. lose a mining operation, Cities almost lose one of their cities but instead of that happening one of the last independently Human/Dwarf/Aelf city becomes bound to Azyr.

In Soulslayer Duradin are working on reclaiming the Karaks together

We pretty much lost the entirety of the Thunder Lizard constellation destroying one silver tower and the implications of that are huge. 9 gaunt summoners going down to 8 is a weird question that needs to get answered.

Manfred was able to conquer a tremendous amount of territory from Neferata when she went to go do her task assigned by Nagash.

Katakros broke into the 8 points and go to the Varanspire broke into it and caused a lot of damage only to be pushed back to the realmgate. 

Dawnbringer Crusades are reclaiming a bunch of lands 

Stormcast losing their 100% respawn is a big deal and in the stories they have their greatest minds working on it. 

In Kragnos it's alluded that Seraphon have lost two temple cities as of late. One due to the awakening of Kragnos and the other being Mekitospar which who knows if that's truly gone or not.

Not to mention the Incarnates coming up and Beastmen having an Old World Spirit guiding them right now.

All of this lore takes place in a relatively short amount of time which is huge for a narrative like AoS.

I think the disconnect might be is not that the world is stagnating but the pace at which they release new lore / materials might not be quick enough? Mostly because the last bit of lore in a game related material was Thondia. 

[novakai]

48 minutes ago, DinoJon said:

But we do have a lot of stuff going on... 

Lumineth invaded Shyish and destroyed a key location for the OBR.

Shish invaded Hyish and caused a tremendous amount of damage to Settler's Gain.

Excelsis had all of the Dark Aelves flee it while having it's inner and outer defenses destroyed.

In Gloomspite the city of Draconium was lost but it did prevent the loss of Hammerhall-Aqshy

Grombrindal is back and helping to unite the dwarves

In Arkanaut's Oath K.O. lose a mining operation, Cities almost lose one of their cities but instead of that happening one of the last independently Human/Dwarf/Aelf city becomes bound to Azyr.

In Soulslayer Duradin are working on reclaiming the Karaks together

We pretty much lost the entirety of the Thunder Lizard constellation destroying one silver tower and the implications of that are huge. 9 gaunt summoners going down to 8 is a weird question that needs to get answered.

Manfred was able to conquer a tremendous amount of territory from Neferata when she went to go do her task assigned by Nagash.

Katakros broke into the 8 points and go to the Varanspire broke into it and caused a lot of damage only to be pushed back to the realmgate. 

Dawnbringer Crusades are reclaiming a bunch of lands 

Stormcast losing their 100% respawn is a big deal and in the stories they have their greatest minds working on it. 

In Kragnos it's alluded that Seraphon have lost two temple cities as of late. One due to the awakening of Kragnos and the other being Mekitospar which who knows if that's truly gone or not.

Not to mention the Incarnates coming up and Beastmen having an Old World Spirit guiding them right now.

All of this lore takes place in a relatively short amount of time which is huge for a narrative like AoS.

I think the disconnect might be is not that the world is stagnating but the pace at which they release new lore / materials might not be quick enough? Mostly because the last bit of lore in a game related material was Thondia. 

I think the problem is none of those stuff felt impactful or important because they didn’t  build up from those lore event or anything afterwards. Half of those stuff most people probably forget even happen I bet.

like SCE didn’t really loose their respawn point because Grugni just came in and gave them new armor that basically negate the Dark sky is probably the worst offender

they can add all these random excerpt in the lore but none of it really matter if their follow up is weak or none existence like the beast men excerpt in Thondia.

Edited January 3, 2023 by novakai

[MitGas]

That's what you get when your protagonists/antagonists are godly beings (or close to it) and vast realms where only the biggest players count for something... I almost never find the big bads too compelling and the setup of AoS did push them in that general direction. A smaller setting/story like Ulfenkarn is better for dramatic reasons.

In 40k you at least got different planets, that feel more self-contained than invading realms.

And while I just badmouthed the overall premise a bit, it shows that these concerns will go away as GW fills the realms with life so to speak.

I'd like to see more "mundane" (well, they're far from mundane but I don't know a better word for it atm) heroes/villains like Egrimm, Aekold Helbrass (or Ludwig Schwarzhelm, Luthor Huss) and fewer ultimate bad guys like Archaon though. And when they bring back dudes like Sigvald, I hope that they didn't stylize him to be the ultimate avatar of their God too.... (No idea if Sigvald changed much, just picked him randomly) Despite the grand nature of AoS, we need IMO more smaller stuff and self-contained elements. 



 

[novakai]

14 minutes ago, MitGas said:

That's what you get when your protagonists/antagonists are godly beings (or close to it) and vast realms where only the biggest players count for something... I almost never find the big bads too compelling and the setup of AoS did push them in that general direction. A smaller setting/story like Ulfenkarn is better for dramatic reasons.

In 40k you at least got different planets, that feel more self-contained than invading realms.

And while I just badmouthed the overall premise a bit, it shows that these concerns will go away as GW fills the realms with life so to speak.

I'd like to see more "mundane" (well, they're far from mundane but I don't know a better word for it atm) heroes/villains like Egrimm, Aekold Helbrass (or Ludwig Schwarzhelm, Luthor Huss) and fewer ultimate bad guys like Archaon though. And when they bring back dudes like Sigvald, I hope that they didn't stylize him to be the ultimate avatar of their God too.... (No idea if Sigvald changed much, just picked him randomly) Despite the grand nature of AoS, we need IMO more smaller stuff and self-contained elements. 



 

I mean smaller scales is basically all AoS gotten with it’s Black Library novels, most of them are self contain even the Gortrek novels for the most part. Of course Black library has its own faults as well.

like for much as I like Gothghul hollow and I am interested in the follow up, it could have been set up in any other fantasy universe beside the Mortal Realm 

[Talas]

55 minutes ago, MitGas said:

That's what you get when your protagonists/antagonists are godly beings (or close to it) and vast realms where only the biggest players count for something... I almost never find the big bads too compelling and the setup of AoS did push them in that general direction...

As a fan of Norse and Greek mythology, I love AoS just for that.

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

GW had is set up perfectly for a big world changing event at the launch of 3rtd edition, as the gates to Azyr split open and suddenly that realm can be assaulted from Ghur

i thought that was more fan wishlisting than anything? like yes that was Gordrakk's intent but the narrative would've stopped at Excelsis falling/being destroyed/etc for 3.0 anyway. cracking open Azyr feels like it wouldn't happen until the 20 year mark. We didn't even have a teaser for the new human faction yet during the Broken Realms siege. 3.0 even reaffirmed the whole idea that the realms are majority chaos-held; which when expanded upon will be more interesting than simply cracking Azyr open because it's "the one realm left." we need to get past the DBC before Azyr gets touched.

1 hour ago, novakai said:

like SCE didn’t really loose their respawn point because Grugni just came in and gave them new armor that basically negate the Dark sky is probably the worst offender

which is not immediate to all stormcast and requires you dying to be refitted into thunderstrike armor--and dying is now riskier than ever as a stormcast.

the main problem comes down to the fact that this is a tabletop wargame not a book series. There's always going to be narrative freezing. i think expanding these events more, especially showing aftereffects, would go farther than simply adding in more events or making said events be even more consequential.

[Shankelton]

2 hours ago, DinoJon said:

But we do have a lot of stuff going on... 

Lumineth invaded Shyish and destroyed a key location for the OBR.

Shish invaded Hyish and caused a tremendous amount of damage to Settler's Gain.

Excelsis had all of the Dark Aelves flee it while having it's inner and outer defenses destroyed.

In Gloomspite the city of Draconium was lost but it did prevent the loss of Hammerhall-Aqshy

Grombrindal is back and helping to unite the dwarves

In Arkanaut's Oath K.O. lose a mining operation, Cities almost lose one of their cities but instead of that happening one of the last independently Human/Dwarf/Aelf city becomes bound to Azyr.

In Soulslayer Duradin are working on reclaiming the Karaks together

We pretty much lost the entirety of the Thunder Lizard constellation destroying one silver tower and the implications of that are huge. 9 gaunt summoners going down to 8 is a weird question that needs to get answered.

Manfred was able to conquer a tremendous amount of territory from Neferata when she went to go do her task assigned by Nagash.

Katakros broke into the 8 points and go to the Varanspire broke into it and caused a lot of damage only to be pushed back to the realmgate. 

Dawnbringer Crusades are reclaiming a bunch of lands 

Stormcast losing their 100% respawn is a big deal and in the stories they have their greatest minds working on it. 

In Kragnos it's alluded that Seraphon have lost two temple cities as of late. One due to the awakening of Kragnos and the other being Mekitospar which who knows if that's truly gone or not.

Not to mention the Incarnates coming up and Beastmen having an Old World Spirit guiding them right now.

All of this lore takes place in a relatively short amount of time which is huge for a narrative like AoS.

I think the disconnect might be is not that the world is stagnating but the pace at which they release new lore / materials might not be quick enough? Mostly because the last bit of lore in a game related material was Thondia. 

I feel we do have a lot. More then I know, or have gotten to experience. 

The issue is I think its spread too far over too many mediums. Most of which the average fan likely isn't engaging with. IE: White Dwarf. They need to bring the lore and goings on to a more accessible platform. It doesn't need to be verbatim to invalidate their other products, but we should have say... a web page, where world lovers can look at a realm and see what is happening in the moment. What might have happened in the past, and hints to the future.

You can simplify it even more and do something like a Free city newsletter, written in universe to give a biased look from the perspective the mortals. Heck! You could make it a variety selection. One month you do a free city of your choice... then next its a chaos sermon to the tribes of the 8-points. A tablet of divinations from the lizardmen, or a bill of sales/contract from the Kharadron.

Those are the creative lore products I would be so interested in, and would help keep people from always being annoyed that there isnt any lore atm.

[novakai]

13 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

 

which is not immediate to all stormcast and requires you dying to be refitted into thunderstrike armor--and dying is now riskier than ever as a stormcast.

the main problem comes down to the fact that this is a tabletop wargame not a book series. There's always going to be narrative freezing. i think expanding these events more, especially showing aftereffects, would go farther than simply adding in more events or making said events be even more consequential.

well the Dark sky is like the mortality rate for Space Marines going through the Primaris Rubicon, yes, it probably poses a problem and probably many have died due to it but it pretty much handwaved when it matters the most.

[King Under the Mountain]

All this talk of Broken Realms reminds me of how exciting those lore/campaign books were.  Even if some of it didn't land, there was enough exciting moments to justify the series. 

I really hope we get another series soon (possibly after Arks of Omen?).  

[Vasshpit]

I want to read the narrative event where those damn snarlfang grots and possibly more are released....😶 been a damn month and half since any word now...

Thats the lore I want to see move forward. 😄

[novakai]

23 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I want to read the narrative event where those damn snarlfang grots and possibly more are released....😶 been a damn month and half since any word now...

Thats the lore I want to see move forward. 😄

Well they live in the plains, they worship the sun. The hero was suppose to be a Gitlord if you read Rippas lore excerpt. They steal Snarlfang cubs from their den and raise them as mounts.

their units where all the discontinued goblin units from Warhammer fantasy. (Wolf chariots, snorting pump wagons, and all the artillery pieces)

probably none of it going to be release anytime soon at this point in time shrug

Edited January 3, 2023 by novakai

[Ogregut]

34 minutes ago, King Under the Mountain said:

All this talk of Broken Realms reminds me of how exciting those lore/campaign books were.  Even if some of it didn't land, there was enough exciting moments to justify the series. 

I really hope we get another series soon (possibly after Arks of Omen?).  

This time next year we should have the build up to 4th edition AoS start and a new narrative event like broken realms and ark of omens. 

[Vasshpit]

@novakai

Ha! I know all this and was being sarcastic. heh. 

 

 

 

Gimmie, gimme dem new grots!

[KingBrodd]

All this Lore talk has me salivating at the idea of Seasons of War Gallet 🤤

[KriticalKhan]

I'm going to toss my hat in the ring before the lore talk get mod-nuked, but Warhammer was, historically, a setting, not a narrative. By that I mean it wasn't like the MCU where every piece of new content was pushing forward an overarching narrative, they were shining a light on different parts of the universe where smaller, independent stories were told. The Core Book, Codexes, campaigns, etc. weren't the latest comic telling the next part of Mr Imperium Main Protagonist's (Guilliman....) life, they were meant to introduce you to a faction, show you a cool new place in the world, and said, "Now go have fun." 

If you wanted a story to happen, you'd read a Black Library novel or MAKE one with your battles with the people you played against. It wasn't "stagnant," it was a setting where players and supplementary material created their own narratives.

I say "was" for a reason, as we've seen with post-Gathering Storm 40k and now AoS, that GW has shifted their approach. We're seeing a larger overarching story that gets pushed forward with new content, albeit very slowly, and that is, I believe, by design. GW isn't trying to write Lord of the Rings here, they're still writing something players are meant to set their battles in and authors are meant to write around. So we're not going to get Guilliman reuniting the Imperium and finding all the loyalist Primarchs, or Kragnos ruining Sigmar's plans in six months of releases, because after that happens... then what? You have to keep writing more, and more, and more new, different things to happen in order to keep stuff interesting, and when they want all their characters they're selling to feature in the lore so players keep using them, they can't keep writing dozens of different plotlines around them without ending up in the same situation that DC and Marvel comics are in. Spoilers for them, but it ain't a good one.

GW is playing the long game. They're planning releases three, even four years ahead, and they have to write these developments under the assumption that they'll be keeping AoS and 40k around for another 30 or 40 years. 

Any developments in the "narrative" (and I hesitate to even call it one) are going to be minor, and they're going to happen very, very slowly.

Also, Kragnos is like the Avatar of AoS: everyone keeps talking about Kragnos, but only to talk about how no one cares about Kragnos. It's very funny to me that his biggest impact on the community seems to be a meme about him being horny for Alarielle.

[Vasshpit]

I love Avatar!

Where's this meme?... 🤭😏

[Gothmaug]

45 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I love Avatar!

Where's this meme?... 🤭😏

This is the only meme I remember when thinking of Kragnos. I certainly side with the confused destruction players on this one. 

 

[MitGas]

11 hours ago, Talas said:

As a fan of Norse and Greek mythology, I love AoS just for that.

In general I agree with you. But I found the tales of a Tantalus or Niobe more interesting than just exclusive stories about the Gods themselves. So a second „tier“ of named characters isn‘t bad. It‘s also not completely missing and thankfully the writers, as novakai pointed out, try to show the realms not just in the typical over-the-top style but I‘m dead certain that AoS will get much more love when the setting is better defined in the general fandom‘s eye. 
 

many people loved how defined Warhammer was after all. More room for creativity is definitely good but a healthy mix of the two extremes will help the setting I bet.